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MohawkSatan posted:They're mostly just keeping people from getting shittons of hits. Mostly they've popped up when shooting people and someone rolls a pile of hits to soak or shoot a man. The fact that a limit technically applies to soak is actually pretty brutal. You might have 40 dice to stop the bullet with your left eye, but your limit might be something like 5 or 6. It's actually pretty easy to hit your limit given a little luck. Armor doesn't have limits. "Note that limits generally only apply to tests involving a dice pool derived from a skill and an attribute. Tests using a single attribute, or two attributes, do not use limits."
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Aug 3, 2013 03:19
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Bigass Moth posted:I don't know about weak, though in long-term games Adepts should pretty much always be "more powerful" since they have no limit on their Magic Rating/power points and can install ware to do the same things that Sams can. They can also start with Improved Reflexes 3 while Sams can not have more than +2D6, they can directly raise skills (IMO the point of Adepts) in a way that Sams do not have access to, and Combat Sense is an incredibly useful power that there is no cyber version of, among many other things. The new combat rules also don't help a class of character that previously was known for taking advantage of using multiple attacks per phase as a strength. On the other hand, ware has a bunch of stuff that its much better at then adept powers - increasing stats, for example. Muscle Toner, Muscle Augmentation, Cerebral Booster, Reaction Enhancers (and in a sense Tailored Pheremones) are all either much cheaper in terms of essence/PP than their adept power equivalents or only possible through ware, for the Cerebral Boosters and pheremones. It's also much cheaper/easier to boost your toughness through ware - armor boosters like orthoskin/dermal plating, body boosters like bone lacing and bone density augmentation, extra health boxes and armor from cyberlimbs, or stuff like platelet factories and pain editors. Ware is also better at unarmed combat, either through bone lacing/bone density or through cyberimplant blades. All the stuff I mentioned is both relatively cheap and essence-light.
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Aug 6, 2013 13:04
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Also you should always buy used bioware! Having your own heart is for suckers.
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Aug 6, 2013 14:14
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Bigass Moth posted:Used bioware needs an eratta badly - I refuse to believe you can install someone else's Bone Density, for example, and all cultured bioware is made specifically for you so there should be no Used option. Well yeah, used cultured is impossible, but regular style bioware is totally available used. Steal the bones of your foes to make your
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Aug 6, 2013 14:25
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So did a little playing around with ware. You can get Alphaware Wired Reflexes 1, Used Reaction Enhancers 3, Used Muscle Toner 3, and Used Muscle Augmentation 3 for 217,800 nuyen (leaving 57200 if you went priority B for Resources), leaving 1.775 essence. That's +10 to attributes and +1d6 initiative for a priority B, which is a pretty good deal for a Street Sam without having to go to resources A.
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Aug 7, 2013 03:40
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Deviant posted:Limit of +4 from augmentations. +4 to a specific attribute, not +4 overall.
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Aug 7, 2013 04:11
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Martello posted:Examples? Damage spells aren't instant murder bombs. Matrix rules are much saner and easier to use. Melee can be worthwhile (and is destined to improve as more ware/powers/martial arts get added). All types of guns have a good use, now.
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Aug 9, 2013 00:50
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Baby Babbeh posted:So, is melee still awful and useless in 5e? The biggest buff to melee is that now guns only fire once per round, unless you split your dice pool (which melee can do as well). In addition, damage is now equal to Strength rather than Str/2, but due to how damage went up universally it doesn't get comparatively better until really high strength. Of course, that's ignoring the monowire whip which is basically always the best melee weapon to use.
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Aug 11, 2013 21:16
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Geekkake posted:Just glancing at it, the recoil preservation across multiple action phases or initiative passes or whatever the Hell (look, they're turns) seems silly. Has anyone played without that particular rule, to see if it really hurts anything? The idea of the following action sequence still carrying a recoil penalty on the second shot is kinda dumb: That's not how recoil works. See, the wording is really dumb in the book. "Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase." Basically everyone read that as ""Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting (for an entire Action Phase.)" I.E., you had to spend a full action phase not shooting for it to reset. However, the developers have stated that is not correct. The actually way that sentence should be read is "Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than (shooting for an entire Action Phase.)" All you have to do to stop recoil from accumulating is to take a simple action to do anything else.
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Aug 17, 2013 05:40
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Kwyndig posted:Well prior to 4th it was because shotguns and heavy pistols, in the hands of a skilled gunslinger, were significantly more dangerous per shot. Now with this whole HP-but-we're-not calling-it-that-style damage system automatics and longarms have an advantage again in damage output. Now heavy pistols just have the conceal-ability advantage over longarms.... and do shotguns still do spreading? I can't find the shotgun rules in the book. Yeah, shotguns can give a penalty to dodge (though at penalties to damage at mid and long range), as well as being the only way to hit two enemies at once without splitting your dicepool. With sniper rifles being kings of damage since there aren't narrow bursts anymore, longarms are just as viable as automatics. Pistols have the advantage of being concealable and more etiquette-appropriate - lots more places will let you in carrying a pistol than ones that will let you in carrying an assault rifle.
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Aug 17, 2013 14:51
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Bigass Moth posted:He's right that wireless guns are pointless. That's why you can buy any gun as a Throwback for no extra cost. This stupid paranoia over DECKERS HACKING MY GUNZ is hilarious to me, because in the two or three turns it would take a decker to turn off your gun (once you have a good commlink to slave it to) is not really a threat when he could just be shooting you. A wireless smartgun gives +2 dice to hit and a couple other minor benefits, it is definitely useful.
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Aug 18, 2013 13:42
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Bigass Moth posted:Hacking a gun during combat isn't a great idea, but doing it while the enemy doesn't know you're there is the real key to effective hacking. Turning wireless on is a Simple Action, you know the thing you are almost always going to have available unless you're firing full auto? There's no reason to go throwback, just leave the wireless off until you need it, the decker can't do poo poo if you have it off.
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Aug 18, 2013 13:55
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Gort posted:Speaking of drain and such, anyone else always had a problem with how Physical drain is balanced? OK, so you're casting/summoning above your Magic rating, you're going to take physical drain! Oh no! Except, Physical damage is way less of a problem for a mage than Stun - a few combat rounds with a medkit or Heal spell and you're right back to normal. You can't heal Drain with medkits or Heal spells, you can only heal it through natural resting. The stun damage thing is still on, page 168 on the bottom right.
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Aug 22, 2013 14:39
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Cabbit posted:I just had the dumbest idea. Skip the darts, cast directly on actual bullets (they're just a lump of metal, so no problem there).
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Aug 22, 2013 19:31
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Mystic Mongol posted:Logic 3 and Charisma 3 are not meaningfully better than Logic 1 and Charisma 1. Why do people have to buy them up? Logic 1 and Charisma 1 mean you automatically fail any checks based on those skills that you haven't put ranks that. Logic 3 and Charisma 3 give you a 56% chance to get one hit on those skills.
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Aug 23, 2013 20:53
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The only real problem with ways to do damage is how incredibly overpowered grenades are. A direct hit (i.e. 3 total, not net hits) is an instant kill on everyone but the toughest of tanks.
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Aug 27, 2013 17:44
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Gobbeldygook posted:Grenades are unlikely to be errata'd. According to the developers, they worked almost the same way in 4E. From 4E's FAQ: Yeah, but grenades weren't an instant kill in SR4. A frag grenade in SR4 did 12P, +5 AP, and a typical non-tank character might have body 3 and Actioneer Business Suit (ignore FFBA for this, which would make it even higher) for a total soak of 13, or a bit over 4 hits on average. 12-4=8, which is not a kill an on unwounded person. In SR5, a frag grenade does 18P, +5 AP, and a we'll go with body 3 and the heaviest typical armor, an Armor Jacket. Total soak is 22 for an average of 7.333 hits (Actioneer Business Suit would be 1 less hit). That leaves 11-12 damage, which is a kill on an unwounded person (well, near death technically, but either way you're out). It's even worse when you add in chunky salsa. SR5 frag grenades have a 50% larger radius, thanks to increased damage, which means chunky salsa comes into play more often and is more deadly when it does. Grenades are instant murder machines in SR5. Edit: Also, you literally can't miss with a thrown flashbang - their maximum scatter is smaller than their radius. Also, with a blast diamater of 20 meters that has no damage falloff it's super easy to get 20 or more stun damage. Also since there is no damage falloff, if you have a guy less than 10 meters from the wall it's a better idea to throw the grenade at the wall (and thus get chunky salsa for 20 stun damage) than to throw it directly at him (and not get chunky salsa and thus only have 10 damage). In a small room, you can easily rack up 50 or more stun damage and murder everything in it with a single flashbang. Edit2: Wait a loving minute the floor explicitly counts for chunky salsa. All grenades do double damage from what they actually say, due to bouncing off the floor. Someone standing in a normal-height room (i.e. 3 meters) takes 60S from a normal flashbang just from the blast bouncing off the floor and ceiling, not even counting the walls. And because barriers ignore stun damage, flashbangs automatically bounce off even the weakest barrier. Piell fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 28, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 23:28
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Because flashbang grenades automatically bounce off all barriers, you can carry around a cardboard box. During combat, you throw out a flashbang and then get inside the box before it goes off and be perfectly fine while everything else in the room dies from all the stun damage.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:11
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Bigass Moth posted:I think you can ignore the floor counting as a barrier since ultimately there will be almost no situations you are ever NOT on some sort of floor. You can't ignore the floor, the rules specifically mention the six surfaces in a small room counting for chunky salsa.
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Aug 28, 2013 00:27
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Nyaa posted:I need a full guide on how to deal with ongoing/incoming grenade because this is just too deadly to miss out on any tricks. Outgoing: Step 1: See a guy in standard room with 3 meter high ceilings (we will ignore walls for this, they aren't even needed). Step 2: Throw a flashbang grenade at his feet. Step 3: The initial upwards blast goes up 3 meters to the ceiling and bounces, goes down 3 meters to the floor and bounces, goes up 3 meters to the floor and bounces, goes down 1 meter. We'll assume he is less than 3 meters tall, so the inital upwards blast hits him 3 times. Step 4: The initial downwards blast bounces up after no distance for 3 meters up to the ceiling, down 3 meters to the floor, up 3 meters to the ceiling, down 1 meter. This also hits him 3 times. Step 5: Flashbangs have no damage falloff, so each hit adds 10S damage. He takes 60S and explodes, since stun damage overflows to physical and there isn't any way he is going to soak that. Incoming: Step 1: Be a guy in a standard room with 3 meter high ceilings. Step 2: Die You can't even miss with a thrown flashbang - the maximum scatter distance is 6 meters, and the blast radius is 10 meters with no damage falloff.
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Aug 28, 2013 01:16
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Rockopolis posted:How do you square this with "Getting blown up with a grenade tends to suck really bad."? A flashbang grenade is 6R and costs 100 nuyen.
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Aug 28, 2013 01:32
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MohawkSatan posted:Well, that and the AK to the face/shotgun to the chest. Except for the part where partial cover can actually get you killed. See, normally a tie is a miss (though it still counts for touch-only weapons). But when you're in cover, a tie means the bullet goes against the barrier and then against you. Godd cover is always an advantage (+4 to defense), but partial cover is only +2, which is slightly less than one success on average, meaning a bullet that could have missed you completely can instead do damage to you if your cover isn't solid enough. It's even dumber if your "cover" is just something that blocks partially line of sight, like foliage or curtains, which don't actually have barrier ratings. In that case, taking cover always makes you MORE likely to get hurt.
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Aug 28, 2013 05:13
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ProfessorCirno posted:...Would curtains actually count as cover? I thought cover means you actually have something there that can block the enemy fire. Yep. From the book: "If the Defender uses a Take Cover action to get behind something where more than twenty-fve and up to fifty percent of the defender’s body is obscured by intervening terrain or other forms of cover such as brush, foliage, or various obstacles (crates, windows, doorways, curtains and the like), he benefts from a +2 modifer to his Defense Test." So yes, it's better to stand entirely in the open than to hide behind a curtain or brush that covers almost half your body.
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Aug 28, 2013 05:18
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Oh drat, if you miss an enemy who's in a melee with your ally, your ally then has to defend against your shot at the same penalties.
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Aug 28, 2013 05:20
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Shockeh posted:I'm happy to be called out if you can find a single RPG without at least some level of abusive 'If I put x and y obscure mechanics together, this breaks the game' habits in it. I mean, that's so endemic to not just RPG's, but trying to make a pen and paper ruleset that covers every possible action a person might want to do. Expecting rules to be watertight for every eventuality with such a broad target is impossible, and I think you'd be crazy to NOT expect some level of interpretation required by the GM. Or the book is terribly edited, contradictory, and missing stuff that should be there? I'm not requiring watertight, but it's hard to ignore this big gaping hole in the floor.
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Sep 6, 2013 11:25
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H posted:If you wanted to do a straight physical (non-astral) kung fu beast, I would do a mixed cyberware/adept orc (other metatypes work) with priorities A/B/C/D/E as Stats/Metatype/Skills/Magic/Resources.For trading in 10 Karma, you could get 20,000 Nuyen worth of cyberware (which happens to be the price of Bone Lacing 1 + 2 Orthoskins) to give you +3 armor, +1 Bod, +1 Unarmed Physical damage. That's a terrible character decision, by the way. You can get a far, far stronger and more well-rounded character by going straight cyberware.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:36
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Cabbit posted:You mean aside from Critical Strike: Unarmed (explicitly works with weapons, so put on some knucks/enjoy your 9S shock gloves!) and Attribute Boost: Strength? Critical Strike increase by 1 point max. Attribute Boost: Strength lets you make an Attribute Boost + Magic test as a simple action (meaning you can't attack that round) to raise your strength by the number of hits you get, maximum of 4, and caused drain equal to the level of the power. Meanwhile a cybered character can get Str+3 P super easily at chargen (a spur or used bone density augmentation 4) and +3 strength (used muscle augmentation 4) all the time.
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Sep 10, 2013 04:58
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Cabbit posted:That he can, but he's also probably going to throw Resources A or B out to get it. An Adept can throw Magic D/Metatype C for his stuff, netting A or B skills and attributes. Also, doesn't cyber-enhancement only go to +3 for attributes, as opposed to the +4 Adept powers are capable of (or is that just for cybernetic limbs)? You do have to go high resources, but in exchange you don't have to waste a slot on magic. I mean, Resources E is incredibly restrictive - you have 6000 nuyen only. I mean, a rating 2 SIN (the absolute minimum acceptable) is 5k in itself! Cyberware is indeed limited to +3 (with the exception of reaction for reaction enhancers + wired reflexes) but it doesnt really matter because with adept boost you aren't going to reliably hit +4 unless you feel like 6 drain at the end. Bioware is really the way to go, though. For example, here's a sample ware list for a very well rounded character. You need Resources A (total cost is 411250, which still leaves almost 40k for other gear without spending any karma on nuyen) to get it, but it provides massive bonuses across a variety of roles. pre:Used Bone Density Augmentation 4 15000 Used Muscle Augmentation 3 69750 Used Muscle Toner 3 72000 Synaptic Booster 1 95000 Platelet Factories 17000 Mnemonic Enhancer 2 18000 Cerebral Booster 1 31500 Tailored Pheremones 3 93000 If you wanted, you could cut it down to the first three items and add Alpha Wired Reflexes 1 to fit into Resources B, and still be better than the cybered adept. Piell fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Sep 10, 2013 |
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Sep 10, 2013 05:26
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Cabbit posted:Magic D, Metatype C. As in, a human with 6 Magic and 3 Edge. But, yeah, I guess it's a matter of focus. Switch it out for another level of Synaptic boosters if you want, then. Either way, cyberware is going to provide a massively larger set of bonuses than adepts.
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Sep 10, 2013 05:36
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MohawkSatan posted:Is it me, or is it not even possible to make alrightish street level rigger? I mean, your initial investment is 49.5K, and then you're looking at 25K or so for an alright vehicle and then... You;ve got 500 nuyen left, enjoy. And that's with priority A in resources, which is a total waste at street level. The street level rules in the book are dumb as poo poo, they totally screw over deckers, street sams, and riggers while doing nothing to anyone else. A better way to do street level is to make the priorities BBCDE or BCCDE instead of ABCDE. That way, everyone has a sacrifice, but you can still have playable characters of any type.
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Sep 12, 2013 18:55
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Geekkake posted:Personally, I'm curious why a "military gunslinger adept" is using swords, unless that military is from 1815? For PCs, blades are only really worth it for Orks and Trolls, it turns out. The best overall bladed weapon is the Katana, which does Str+3 damage. Which means with maximum unaugmented human/elf strength you do 9 damage, aka the same as a Ruger Warhawk pistol or a taser club. Maximum starting damage as a human is 12 (well 13 with a cybered adept but those are much more difficult to do in SR5), aka the same damage as a shotgun. Or you could get a monowire whip and get the same damage, greatly increased AP, much easier concealability, and the ability to entirely ignore strength. For Joe Average NPC against a PC, knives are a loving joke. A guy with 3 strength will do 4 damage with a knife, with -1 AP. Meanwhile the typical armor soak starts at 12 dice, which on average will mean just 1/3 of a point of damage. A guy with average body and the best starting armor (Armor Jacket) could get stabbed at all day and barely notice. Piell fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 15:10
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dirtycajun posted:Rapid fire thrown dagger street sam build with a smartlink is a great way to murder high defense people as throwing three dicepool increasing daggers against a diminishing defense is pretty loving great. We have a character who does it now in our missions game and the chick running him is having an absolute blast. It's not bad and it's stylish as hell, true, but a burst-firing weapon SMG will do a better job of it.
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Sep 21, 2013 15:21
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Geekkake posted:I haven't had a chance to run this edition at all. If a thrown-dagger-with-a-smartlink build is viable (which is loving great and now I'm making all kinds of cyberTrejo NPCs in my mind), what about the average guy? Knives wielded by regular people just aren't dangerous - 4P DV is easily soakable by the most characters down to 1 damage or less, and literally every armor will make it stun instead of physical. The least damaging gun does 6P, by comparison.
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Sep 21, 2013 15:37
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BenRGamer posted:Hm. Can't adepts make blades deadly with the Critical Strike power? Add 1 DV per level to a specific skill. A couple levels of that along with Attribute Boost to give yourself a good +2 or +3 Str to make it hit harder and you might be able to reach 11P or greater on a simple Combat Knife, not even talking about swords and katanas. Nope, Critical strike is only +1 DV max, not +1 DV per level (it doesn't have levels). Adepts also lose out on cheap str and agility boosters that ware has (3 PP for +3 strength!). And attribute boost means you have to spend a round not attacking to activate it. Weapon focuses do at least give accuracy bonuses to make up for the lowered agility compared to ware, at least. Combat Axe only has 4 accuracy vs the katana's 7, making the katana a lot better (a specialized blade user will end up around 12-15 dicepool, meaning they'll hit the combat axe's accuracy limit more than half the time).
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Sep 21, 2013 17:05
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BenRGamer posted:Well, since we're talking about Adept Blade Users, enhanced accuracy can help with that drawback, too. It takes a complex action to attack with a melee weapon.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:35
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MilkmanLuke posted:That should probably be "Knives wielded by regular people *AGAINST COMBAT RUNNERS* just aren't dangerous" Knives wielded by regular people against literally anyone in armor just aren't dangerous to anyone, not just runners. The crappiest armor (besides armor clothing) is armor rating 8, meaning on average (1+net hits) DV gets through after soak even against someone with Body 1. And unless the guy with a knife gets 4+ net hits, it's going to be stun damage. Piell fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 13:25
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MilkmanLuke posted:Cool story, bro. 1)If you're a shadowrunner that doesn't wear armor all the time you're a moron, there's literally armored clothing that's cheap and easily available. This isn't just a rules-thing, it's in-character too: "In 2075, you’d have to be crazy to consider walking outside with just a tee-shirt and jeans, even in some of the nicer parts of the Sprawl. You need protection" 2)To get 4+ hits, even on an unaware target, requires an average of 12 dice. That's not a regular person (which is what we were discussing), this is a very skilled knife fighter. Looking at a PR1 ganger, he has 8 dice in blades. A PR3 police office has 7 dice in clubs. A PR4 Yakuza guy has 10 dice in blades. 3)Pistols are way better than knives, I'm not at all disputing this. And someone heavily focused in blades can do quite a bit of damage. But a random mugger? Nope, not a problem against anything but the weakest of shadowrunners in the crappiest of armor.
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Sep 23, 2013 14:24
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Consider a knife fight between two identical PR1 gangers. They have 8 dice to attack and 6 to dodge, meaning 1 net hit on average. So that's 6 DV, -1AP. They've each got body 4 and 9 armor, meaning they average 4 success on soak dice. So, on average, they do 2 points of stun damage per round.
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Sep 23, 2013 16:37
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The thing is that armored clothing isn't suspicious in the slightest, even if it is detected. It's common, tons of people are wearing armored clothing. It's not going to draw any extra scrutiny or draw attention or questions, even if it's discovered not to be regular clothing (not to mention that the books says it is "almost impossible to detect as armor."). Actioneer business suits are described as "discreetly armored", Urban Explorer armor is described as "designed for couriers". This stuff isn't suspicious! Every single shadowrunner should always be in armor because it's cheap, easily accessed, and there are several options that aren't suspicious in the slightest.
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Sep 24, 2013 05:58
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Gobbeldygook posted:A single stab wound not being particularly dangerous except in the hands of a very dedicated, strong, lucky, or trained fighter is quite realistic. Less than 5% of people admitted to a hospital after being stabbed die as a result of their injuries. A person wearing body armor should have even less to fear from a random stabbing than that. Most people aren't shadowrunners, either. Discreet/un-noticeable armor is so cheap and easily available in 5E you literally have to be stupid not to get some if you are a shadowrunner.
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Sep 24, 2013 20:29
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