StandardVC10 posted:

It's not Old World Blues' writing that's the problem, it's that DLC's half-assed scheme to make sniping less fun by spawning constant streams of high-HP enemies whenever you leave an area for more than three minutes

MondayHotDog posted:

New Vegas has sniper rifles? I've put in 73 hours according to Steam and haven't come across one. Are they only in the DLC?

chiefnewo posted:

It's been a while since I've played either of these games, in what way was OWB trying to mimic Portal?

Mr. Pumroy posted:

the only experience i have had with fallout new vegas dlc was honest hearts. i spawned into the map and a bunch of tribals suddenly attacked me and i killed a unique named tribal dude and i just went through the whole canyon with hostile tribals and a few named dudes and then i reached the end and the game was like "you butchered everyone, there is nothing here for you. return to new vegas" and i'm like uh what.

i have all the dlc though, they were on sale on steam for like a buck, but after that i was like yeahhhh.

Contra Calculus posted:

No, but not all the tribals should have been hostile to you unless you shot the nonhostile ones... I think. Been a while since I played it.

Bobby The Rookie posted:

There's a non-hostile tribal NPC that's easy to accidentally kill.

Jimbo Jaggins posted:

Or they could've just automatically added him as your companion before he talks to you so he doesn't stay dead.

zen death robot posted:

it's kind of bullshit that the op never talked about Princes Peach's Co-Dependency at all

Mr Tastee posted:

Two things I wanna say.

I think it was a good idea the characterize the protagonist of the Saint's Row games as exactly the sort of person who run down the street in a hot dog suit tackling anyone with the misfortune to get in their way, and Zinyak in IV could probably be seen as a metaphor for pretentious video game writers and The Boss being a gamer who would rather just gently caress around with the gameplay.

I also like the integration of The Binding of Isaac's story in the gameplay. It's sort of vague and mysterious and there is definitely something tying it all together, but the player doesn't know what, but at the end of the day it plays second fiddle to shooting weird monsters and trying to not die. I also like how Edmund, who actually didn't do any programming but just set everything up to be programmed, is totally fine with people not giving a gently caress about his story about an insane abused child or something.

Effectronica posted:

he was marked as unkillable in the code delivered to bethesda, but somehow that disappeared during final QA

Effectronica posted:

he was marked as unkillable in the code delivered to bethesda, but somehow that disappeared during final QA

zen death robot posted:

it's kind of bullshit that the op never talked about Princes Peach's Co-Dependency at all

fronz posted:

the only way you could hit follows chalk is if you're just shooting wildly at anything that moves

Meow Tse-tung posted:

It's pretty easy to tag him with stray bullets the way he spawns in/paths sometimes. I had him spawn in the middle of a firefight and accidentally massacred him before he talked the first time I played.

The Wu-Tang Secret posted:

Yes, I agree! That is a pretty funny joke in the thread title! Quite humorous

Gaspar Lewis posted:

Me too, and I'm glad we're seriously and earnestly discussing the co-dependency subtext of Princess Peach, and other similar topics, just like they do at my favorite video game writing publications. It's a thread you could transplant to the comments of, hell, any Rock Paper Shotgun article, or Pitchfork Media partner Kill Screen circa 2012, and feel right at home!

Oppa Gangnam Style.

Effectronica posted:

Writing!

It's frequently said and widely accepted that the writing in videogames is not as good as that found in a book, or even a film. This is weird, because writing has been a part of the medium since not long after its inception. The original text adventure - Colossal Cave Adventure - was designed in 1976, and is nothing but writing. Even non-text games of that era show elements of writing, even if that writing is limited to the premise - the Space Invaders are invading! (Spoilers: we lose).

So, if the writing in videogames has had the same forty years to improve as the rest of the medium, what's the deal? Why does it still suck? Does it still suck? Can it be as good as a book, or a film? Is it fair to compare these media and say that one is better or worse than the other? There's a lot of room for discussion and opinion here, but in-depth discussions of game writing traditionally don't happen much in the gaming community outside of some specific genres, even though story is an essential component of a huge majority of single-player games. There is, for example, no SA thread specifically dedicated to writing in videogames. What's that? This is one of those? Boy, that's meta.

This thread is for discussion of all issues related to game writing. This is a spectacularly wide-ranging topic, so there should be plenty to talk about. However, it's important to note that everyone has a different depth of knowledge about writing, so with this OP I'll try to provide a bit of a primer so that we're all starting on the same springboard.


What is videogame writing?

This might sound like a stupid question, but it's not. When you hear the word "writing", your mind most likely jumps to one of several concepts. Let's use films as an example. Here are three films notable for good writing: Seven, Inglourious Basterds, and Shaun Of The Dead. All three of these films show evidence of great writing, but it's different in each case. Seven, for example, has an excellent, tightly-written plot which keeps you watching right up until the phenomenal payoff, which sticks with you for a while after the credits have rolled - but the dialogue is often a little stilted. Inglourious Basterds is driven purely by situation, tension and dialogue. It's a slow burn, and the plot actually doesn't really matter all that much, but it's a riveting watch. Shaun Of The Dead's plot and situation are both standard, boring zombie movie fare, but it excels in clever homage, satire, wordplay and witticism.

The point I'm coming around to is that writing isn't narrowly defined. In a story-based videogame, nearly everything you come across has been written and designed. Take the original Tomb Raider. There's plot, and there's dialogue... and then there's that bit where you first slide down the side of the Sphinx and the camera suddenly draws way back and shows you just how tiny you are in comparison to the level. That wasn't a camera glitch, somebody wrote it with the intent of producing that effect.

So, broadest definition: videogame writing is anything that attempts to convey an idea to the player. It's not just the plot of a game, or the dialogue, or the text logs you find - it's all three and more.


Alright, but surely videogame writing is never going to be in the league of, say, a good book, or a movie, or a Japanese comic about sexy witch schoolgirls.

This misconception is older than Grandma's toaster and we need to stop saying it, or it might come true.

The fact is that we've been saying this about every new form of media since the Egyptians decided to try staining words onto paper instead of hammering them into the wall. When films came onto the scene, people lamented that they were intrinsically less worthwhile than books. For years people thought television was the idiot's opiate, and some still do. People thought that comic books were vulgar and couldn't be used to tell a story worth reading. We've been wrong every time and we're wrong this time.

Comparing games to films is like comparing films to books. It's a fool's game. Both films and books can have fantastic writing, but you can't compare them with each other directly because they're a different medium and must use different methods to convey their stories. You've probably heard the phrase "the language of cinema" - the way in which films are shot to convey atmospheres and emotions that wouldn't be possible in, for example, a stage play, or even a book. This language has been developed and improved continuously throughout the history of cinema, and we're still discovering new techniques and storytelling methods. Nowadays, claiming a film couldn't ever be as good as a book would strike many people as a silly comparison - film is a totally different art form.

Videogames are the same. They have their own language, which is still being developed. There is stuff that they can do that films and books can't (provide you with a choice! Ask for your opinion! Judge you by your actions!), and there is stuff that films and books can do that videogames usually can't (control pacing! Dictate the opinions of the protagonist! Be the subject of an interesting conversation with your dad!). Writers are still learning how to do things in this medium, and it's only lately that the audience for games with real, worthwhile story is starting to emerge. Now, with the advent of Steam and the indie game, more and more experimentation is being done in this art form. We've already seen major improvements in game storytelling in the past three years. In the next ten, we're going to see this improvement continue, just like it has with every other form of media. And one day we'll get our 2001: A Space Odyssey, our Watchmen, or our Breaking Bad. We're on our way already.


OK, I'm convinced by your totally bulletproof argument. But I buy all the most popular videogames, and the stories all suck!

Well, yeah, to an extent that's true. At the moment (and this is changing, if slowly), the big games that you've seen advertised on TV are mostly about spectacle, not story (and it's worthwhile to remember that spectacle isn't a bad thing). But recently, good writing has become much more important to media consumers in general - witness the success of True Detective, House Of Cards, and Fargo. This is already starting to bleed over into mainstream videogames, even if for now it's just casting Kevin Spacey in the new CoD.

But yeah, at the moment, if you want good stories in games, more often than not you'll have to go looking for them.


So, what should I look out for if I want to see some different ways in which games can have good writing?

(This section is painfully incomplete because I am but a man. I will add good suggestions to this list as they are suggested and discussed in the thread.)

Gone Home - If nothing else, this game certainly provokes a lot of debate. In Gone Home, you explore an empty house which is packed with detail - most everything can be picked up and examined, and further informs the story that you're being told. I like Gone Home, because it's a great example of a storytelling method that only videogames are capable of.

Spec Ops: The Line - Another divisive game. Spec Ops starts off like any mediocre shooty war game, and then yanks the rug out from under you a couple of hours in and forces you to rethink things.

The Stanley Parable - I'm just gonna stop saying that games are divisive because it seems like every game with a focus on writing splits people right down the middle. The Stanley Parable can be described as a collection of surreal comedic vignettes which explore and send up the mechanics and idiosyncracies of videogames. There's a lot to discover and think about, and behind the jokes the points being made are often pretty clever, even if the vignettes can be a little hit-and-miss.

The Last Of Us - A good example of a well-written triple-A game. The Last Of Us is a solid enough action game, but the real draw is the development of the interpersonal relationship between Joel and Ellie, which is continually well-explored and has a powerful payoff.

Mass Effect Trilogy - Whether Mass Effect is well-written is very debatable, but it's worth playing because the sheer amount of writing over the course of the three games is impressive, and keeping it reactive and influencable by the player (to whatever extent) is an impressive technical achievement.

Alpha Protocol - The plot is your standard Hollywood spy thriller, but anyone who's played Alpha Protocol can tell you just how good the writing is. The whole game is massively reactive and Mike's decisions and attitudes can dramatically affect the outcome of the game. Every major character is well-realised with full backstories that you can discover, read up on, and even exploit.

The Walking Dead - Some of the best videogame storytelling ever produced, Telltale's five-part Walking Dead series is the perfect zombie game - one with no shooting at all (well, almost none). Instead, the focus is on survival, decision-making and human relationships. The second season is in progress, and I haven't played it, but the first is almost universally critically acclaimed. Warning: this game will make you feel like poo poo and break your heart.


Anything else I can check out?

If you'd like to listen to videogame designers talk about writing, you could do worse than to listen to Idle Thumbs. The podcast is focused on general game design rather than specifically writing, but the cast members have worked on games such as The Walking Dead and Gone Home. It's also just a really good podcast about videogames in general.


Seems a bit late to abandon this Q&A conceit now. Could you wrap up the OP somehow?

Alright, I'm just about done, so now I hand over to everyone else. This thread is for discussion of writing in games, and games with good or bad writing. Basically if you can take the words "games" and "writing" and mash 'em together in a fun-sounding sentence, you can discuss that.

That said, this is a topic that tends to incite lovely argument so there need to be a couple of ground rules.

• Don't just poo poo all over games you don't like - if you call something bad, justify it properly. We can call this the "Gone Home" rule. It's fine to criticise a game, but you need to qualify it with a good reason. What, specifically, didn't you like about it? What parts didn't work for you? If a game is divisive, that means some people really like it, so don't come in and say it sucks without qualifying, or you're just going to wind people up and cause a lovely argument.
  
• Don't fakepost - People have all sorts of weird, lovely opinions about videogames, so don't assume that you can post something incredibly dumb on purpose, and people will understand it and laugh. Someone will take you seriously and there will be an lovely argument.
  
• Don't get angry - you're a grown-up for christ's sake
  
• Crazy Catch-All: Don't start lovely arguments - Just... don't. You know how not to do that, right? Before you post anything, ask yourself the question "Am I starting a lovely argument?" and if you are don't post. Remember your ABC. Always Be Checking-whether-you-are-starting-a-lovely-argument-and-not-posting-if-you-are.
  

I'll add more to this OP as needed and suggested. Please suggest good links if you know em, or anything important you feel I've missed, or disagree with anything I've written. Otherwise, discuss away!

Gaspar Lewis posted:

Gaspar Lewis posted:

The Sharmat posted:

What is video game writing?

01011001 posted:

poo poo

Effectronica posted:

personally, i would prefer it if i could control everyone around me and prevent them from doing the things that i dislike too, but i am unfortunately limited by merely human capacities

Widestancer posted:

Gamers can write game stories better than professional studios

This is why we have so many amazing gems from RPG Maker and checks out to me