Writing In Videogames - Princess Peach's Co-Dependency Subtext

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Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

fivegears4reverse posted:

Not at 1080p, at any rate.

Please do not quote me.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:22

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# ? May 2, 2024 22:03

Hole Wolf: Apr 28, 2011

Video gam.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:23

Random Stranger: Nov 27, 2009

Tendales posted:

Cinematography in a movie absolutely can be writing. An very stylized example, in Sergio Leone's movies, the way a shot is framed often informs the viewer about what the characters are aware of. If there's something standing just off-screen, then Blue Eyes doesn't know it's there, even if realistically he should be able to see it.

Or let's look at Hitchcock. The weird dolly zooms aren't there just to look cool. They're there to represent Scottie's terror. They're characterization, and characterization is writing.

Then the next obvious question is why is that writing and not a photograph or a painting?

Do you see the problem here? That kind of definition renders the concept of "writing" meaningless. It becomes literally anything you want to point to and say, "That's writing." Beethoven's Ninth? The Washington Monument? The crayon drawing of a kindergardner's family? The creators of all of those works wanted to convey something through their art even if it was just "I like big penises". Writing is communication, but communication is not writing and the definition in the OP is "communication".

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:23

Roger Tangerines: Apr 15, 2013; by Debbie Metallica

Random Stranger posted:

So tell me, why is cinematography in a video game cut scene "writing" while cinematography in a movie not "writing"?

I don't make any such distinction.

Tendales posted:

Cinematography in a movie absolutely can be writing. An very stylized example, in Sergio Leone's movies, the way a shot is framed often informs the viewer about what the characters are aware of. If there's something standing just off-screen, then Blue Eyes doesn't know it's there, even if realistically he should be able to see it.

Or let's look at Hitchcock. The weird dolly zooms aren't there just to look cool. They're there to represent Scottie's terror. They're characterization, and characterization is writing.

Yeah, you've worded it way better than I did in the three minutes I spent trying. I am a bad writer.

Random Stranger posted:

Then the next obvious question is why is that writing and not a photograph or a painting?

Do you see the problem here? That kind of definition renders the concept of "writing" meaningless. It becomes literally anything you want to point to and say, "That's writing." Beethoven's Ninth? The Washington Monument? The crayon drawing of a kindergardner's family? The creators of all of those works wanted to convey something through their art even if it was just "I like big penises". Writing is communication, but communication is not writing and the definition in the OP is "communication".

Maybe I do swing a little broad with my definition and I'm happy to alter the OP if someone puts forth a better definition, but I think you're making too big a deal out of a very minor distinction.

Roger Tangerines fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jul 6, 2014

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:24

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:25

Stunt_enby: Feb 6, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Drifter posted:

I don't enjoy what I've been shown of her experimental text things. I find them to be scattered and disjointed and middling. My exposure to her has been mainly through Cara Ellison.

Is there one you think of particular worth?

Cyberqueen, for me, is her stand-out work and I'm not sure why I forgot to include it in my list. I feel it's the best interpretation of "rogue AI aboard a ship" that's been created to date. It's also really loving good body horror.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:25

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

Stuntman posted:

Cyberqueen, for me, is her stand-out work and I'm not sure why I forgot to include it in my list. I feel it's the best interpretation of "rogue AI aboard a ship" that's been created to date. It's also really loving good body horror.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:26

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

See this? That's writing. Oh, over here? Writing as well. Under there? Writing. Duh.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

closeted republican: Sep 9, 2005

Last of Us and Walking Dead are boring grimdark zombie stories that people think is great writing because they think darkness and sadness equals deep and thought-provoking.

Gone Home's story and writing is about as bad as a cheap romance novel middle-aged women buy, but it's presented in a way to make you think it's much deeper than it really is.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

Zoq-Fot-Pik: Jun 27, 2008; Frungy!

Stuntman posted:

Cyberqueen, for me, is her stand-out work and I'm not sure why I forgot to include it in my list. I feel it's the best interpretation of "rogue AI aboard a ship" that's been created to date. It's also really loving good body horror.

This is just a short story but instead of clicking "next page" you click on green words in the text.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

Gaspar Lewis: Nov 30, 2007; by Lowtax

Roger Tangerines posted:

Writing!

It's frequently said and widely accepted that the writing in videogames is not as good as that found in a book, or even a film. This is weird, because writing has been a part of the medium since not long after its inception. The original text adventure - Colossal Cave Adventure - was designed in 1976, and is nothing but writing. Even non-text games of that era show elements of writing, even if that writing is limited to the premise - the Space Invaders are invading! (Spoilers: we lose).

So, if the writing in videogames has had the same forty years to improve as the rest of the medium, what's the deal? Why does it still suck? Does it still suck? Can it be as good as a book, or a film? Is it fair to compare these media and say that one is better or worse than the other? There's a lot of room for discussion and opinion here, but in-depth discussions of game writing traditionally don't happen much in the gaming community outside of some specific genres, even though story is an essential component of a huge majority of single-player games. There is, for example, no SA thread specifically dedicated to writing in videogames. What's that? This is one of those? Boy, that's meta.

This thread is for discussion of all issues related to game writing. This is a spectacularly wide-ranging topic, so there should be plenty to talk about. However, it's important to note that everyone has a different depth of knowledge about writing, so with this OP I'll try to provide a bit of a primer so that we're all starting on the same springboard.

What is videogame writing?

This might sound like a stupid question, but it's not. When you hear the word "writing", your mind most likely jumps to one of several concepts. Let's use films as an example. Here are three films notable for good writing: Seven, Inglourious Basterds, and Shaun Of The Dead. All three of these films show evidence of great writing, but it's different in each case. Seven, for example, has an excellent, tightly-written plot which keeps you watching right up until the phenomenal payoff, which sticks with you for a while after the credits have rolled - but the dialogue is often a little stilted. Inglourious Basterds is driven purely by situation, tension and dialogue. It's a slow burn, and the plot actually doesn't really matter all that much, but it's a riveting watch. Shaun Of The Dead's plot and situation are both standard, boring zombie movie fare, but it excels in clever homage, satire, wordplay and witticism.

The point I'm coming around to is that writing isn't narrowly defined. In a story-based videogame, nearly everything you come across has been written and designed. Take the original Tomb Raider. There's plot, and there's dialogue... and then there's that bit where you first slide down the side of the Sphinx and the camera suddenly draws way back and shows you just how tiny you are in comparison to the level. That wasn't a camera glitch, somebody wrote it with the intent of producing that effect.

So, broadest definition: videogame writing is anything that attempts to convey an idea to the player. It's not just the plot of a game, or the dialogue, or the text logs you find - it's all three and more.

Alright, but surely videogame writing is never going to be in the league of, say, a good book, or a movie, or a Japanese comic about sexy witch schoolgirls.

This misconception is older than Grandma's toaster and we need to stop saying it, or it might come true.

The fact is that we've been saying this about every new form of media since the Egyptians decided to try staining words onto paper instead of hammering them into the wall. When films came onto the scene, people lamented that they were intrinsically less worthwhile than books. For years people thought television was the idiot's opiate, and some still do. People thought that comic books were vulgar and couldn't be used to tell a story worth reading. We've been wrong every time and we're wrong this time.

Comparing games to films is like comparing films to books. It's a fool's game. Both films and books can have fantastic writing, but you can't compare them with each other directly because they're a different medium and must use different methods to convey their stories. You've probably heard the phrase "the language of cinema" - the way in which films are shot to convey atmospheres and emotions that wouldn't be possible in, for example, a stage play, or even a book. This language has been developed and improved continuously throughout the history of cinema, and we're still discovering new techniques and storytelling methods. Nowadays, claiming a film couldn't ever be as good as a book would strike many people as a silly comparison - film is a totally different art form.

Videogames are the same. They have their own language, which is still being developed. There is stuff that they can do that films and books can't (provide you with a choice! Ask for your opinion! Judge you by your actions!), and there is stuff that films and books can do that videogames usually can't (control pacing! Dictate the opinions of the protagonist! Be the subject of an interesting conversation with your dad!). Writers are still learning how to do things in this medium, and it's only lately that the audience for games with real, worthwhile story is starting to emerge. Now, with the advent of Steam and the indie game, more and more experimentation is being done in this art form. We've already seen major improvements in game storytelling in the past three years. In the next ten, we're going to see this improvement continue, just like it has with every other form of media. And one day we'll get our 2001: A Space Odyssey, our Watchmen, or our Breaking Bad. We're on our way already.

OK, I'm convinced by your totally bulletproof argument. But I buy all the most popular videogames, and the stories all suck!

Well, yeah, to an extent that's true. At the moment (and this is changing, if slowly), the big games that you've seen advertised on TV are mostly about spectacle, not story (and it's worthwhile to remember that spectacle isn't a bad thing). But recently, good writing has become much more important to media consumers in general - witness the success of True Detective, House Of Cards, and Fargo. This is already starting to bleed over into mainstream videogames, even if for now it's just casting Kevin Spacey in the new CoD.

But yeah, at the moment, if you want good stories in games, more often than not you'll have to go looking for them.

So, what should I look out for if I want to see some different ways in which games can have good writing?

(This section is painfully incomplete because I am but a man. I will add good suggestions to this list as they are suggested and discussed in the thread.)

Gone Home - If nothing else, this game certainly provokes a lot of debate. In Gone Home, you explore an empty house which is packed with detail - most everything can be picked up and examined, and further informs the story that you're being told. I like Gone Home, because it's a great example of a storytelling method that only videogames are capable of.

Spec Ops: The Line - Another divisive game. Spec Ops starts off like any mediocre shooty war game, and then yanks the rug out from under you a couple of hours in and forces you to rethink things.

The Stanley Parable - I'm just gonna stop saying that games are divisive because it seems like every game with a focus on writing splits people right down the middle. The Stanley Parable can be described as a collection of surreal comedic vignettes which explore and send up the mechanics and idiosyncracies of videogames. There's a lot to discover and think about, and behind the jokes the points being made are often pretty clever, even if the vignettes can be a little hit-and-miss.

The Last Of Us - A good example of a well-written triple-A game. The Last Of Us is a solid enough action game, but the real draw is the development of the interpersonal relationship between Joel and Ellie, which is continually well-explored and has a powerful payoff.

Mass Effect Trilogy - Whether Mass Effect is well-written is very debatable, but it's worth playing because the sheer amount of writing over the course of the three games is impressive, and keeping it reactive and influencable by the player (to whatever extent) is an impressive technical achievement.

Alpha Protocol - The plot is your standard Hollywood spy thriller, but anyone who's played Alpha Protocol can tell you just how good the writing is. The whole game is massively reactive and Mike's decisions and attitudes can dramatically affect the outcome of the game. Every major character is well-realised with full backstories that you can discover, read up on, and even exploit.

The Walking Dead - Some of the best videogame storytelling ever produced, Telltale's five-part Walking Dead series is the perfect zombie game - one with no shooting at all (well, almost none). Instead, the focus is on survival, decision-making and human relationships. The second season is in progress, and I haven't played it, but the first is almost universally critically acclaimed. Warning: this game will make you feel like poo poo and break your heart.

Anything else I can check out?

If you'd like to listen to videogame designers talk about writing, you could do worse than to listen to Idle Thumbs. The podcast is focused on general game design rather than specifically writing, but the cast members have worked on games such as The Walking Dead and Gone Home. It's also just a really good podcast about videogames in general.

Seems a bit late to abandon this Q&A conceit now. Could you wrap up the OP somehow?

Alright, I'm just about done, so now I hand over to everyone else. This thread is for discussion of writing in games, and games with good or bad writing. Basically if you can take the words "games" and "writing" and mash 'em together in a fun-sounding sentence, you can discuss that.

That said, this is a topic that tends to incite lovely argument so there need to be a couple of ground rules.

Don't just poo poo all over games you don't like - if you call something bad, justify it properly. We can call this the "Gone Home" rule. It's fine to criticise a game, but you need to qualify it with a good reason. What, specifically, didn't you like about it? What parts didn't work for you? If a game is divisive, that means some people really like it, so don't come in and say it sucks without qualifying, or you're just going to wind people up and cause a lovely argument.

Don't fakepost - People have all sorts of weird, lovely opinions about videogames, so don't assume that you can post something incredibly dumb on purpose, and people will understand it and laugh. Someone will take you seriously and there will be an lovely argument.

Don't get angry - you're a grown-up for christ's sake

Crazy Catch-All: Don't start lovely arguments - Just... don't. You know how not to do that, right? Before you post anything, ask yourself the question "Am I starting a lovely argument?" and if you are don't post. Remember your ABC. Always Be Checking-whether-you-are-starting-a-lovely-argument-and-not-posting-if-you-are.

I'll add more to this OP as needed and suggested. Please suggest good links if you know em, or anything important you feel I've missed, or disagree with anything I've written. Otherwise, discuss away!

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

Dan Didio posted:

See this? That's writing. Oh, over here? Writing as well. Under there? Writing. Duh.

i am glad proust ist alive to see this thread. hed become depressed and never leave his room again.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

Your mind is going to full on loving pour out of your face when I casually explain how my 1998 Daewoo is also writing, actually.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:27

Meow Tse-tung: Oct 11, 2004; No one cat should have all that power

Is it fascism yet posted:

i am glad proust ist alive to see this thread. hed become depressed and never leave his room again.

I would deliver the mass effect trilogy to him so that he could experience good writing and maybe learn a few things.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:29

chumbler: Mar 28, 2010

closeted republican posted:

Last of Us and Walking Dead are boring grimdark zombie stories that people think is great writing because they think darkness and sadness equals deep and thought-provoking.

To be fair, it seems to be common nowadays to dismiss even actual books that aren't about darkness and sadness and unrealistically prickish, unlikeable characters. If you liked the book or any characters, it was clearly not Literature, because Literature must Challenge the reader. Capital letters.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:29

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

Recipes are just stories waiting to be told.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:31

Zoq-Fot-Pik: Jun 27, 2008; Frungy!

chumbler posted:

To be fair, it seems to be common nowadays to dismiss even actual books that aren't about darkness and sadness and unrealistically prickish, unlikeable characters. If you liked the book or any characters, it was clearly not Literature.

I've never heard of this. Can you provide any examples?

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:31

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

chumbler posted:

To be fair, it seems to be common nowadays to dismiss even actual books that aren't about darkness and sadness and unrealistically prickish, unlikeable characters. If you liked the book or any characters, it was clearly not Literature.

the greatest writer of our times is George R R Martin. his lovingly crafted depictions of dwarven incest gangrape and torture are truly sublime

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:31

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

I've never heard of this. Can you provide any examples?

Literature, in its broadest sense, is any written work; etymologically the term derives from Latin literatura/litteratura "writing formed with letters", although some definitions include spoken or sung texts. More restrictively, it is writing that possesses literary merit, and language that foregrounds literariness, as opposed to ordinary language. Literature can be classified according to whether it is fiction or non-fiction, and whether it is poetry or prose; it can be further distinguished according to major forms such as the novel, short story or drama; and works are often categorised according to historical periods, or according to their adherence to certain aesthetic features or expectations (genre).

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:32

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

Telltale Games' amazing A Song of Ice and Fire. You'd probably know it as HBO's Game of Thrones, I suppose.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:32

mabels big day: Feb 25, 2012

No mention of Earthbound, OP?

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:32

Stunt_enby: Feb 6, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

This is just a short story but instead of clicking "next page" you click on green words in the text.

Exactly. If we wish to tell good stories within videogames, we must break away from the traditional, narrow mold of what defines a video game, and instead experiment with alternative methods of storytelling. In this case, the level of interactivity, while admittedly low, does wonders to keep you invested in the story. By making it so you're the one "doing" the actions (i.e. causing them to happen with your input), the game keeps you invested in the story. The protagonist being a stand-in for you also accomplishes this.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

Zoq-Fot-Pik: Jun 27, 2008; Frungy!

Endorph posted:

Literature, in its broadest sense, is any written work; etymologically the term derives from Latin literatura/litteratura "writing formed with letters", although some definitions include spoken or sung texts. More restrictively, it is writing that possesses literary merit, and language that foregrounds literariness, as opposed to ordinary language. Literature can be classified according to whether it is fiction or non-fiction, and whether it is poetry or prose; it can be further distinguished according to major forms such as the novel, short story or drama; and works are often categorised according to historical periods, or according to their adherence to certain aesthetic features or expectations (genre).

LOL! Fly away, troll.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

mabels big day posted:

No mention of Earthbound, OP?

he only plays western games, is 12.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

closeted republican: Sep 9, 2005

icantfindaname posted:

the greatest writer of our times is George R R Martin. his lovingly crafted depictions of dwarven incest gangrape and torture are truly sublime

quote:

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was making GBS threads brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.

This is thought-provoking art.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

Captain Baal: Oct 23, 2010; I Failed At Anime 2022

There are no Japanese games with good writing because all Japanese games are for perverts and delinquents.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

Roger Tangerines: Apr 15, 2013; by Debbie Metallica

closeted republican posted:

Last of Us and Walking Dead are boring grimdark zombie stories that people think is great writing because they think darkness and sadness equals deep and thought-provoking.

I don't think that they're particularly "deep", whatever you mean by that, but I think that both those games are effective at inspiring an emotional response and empathy with the characters, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable goal for a story. I don't look for every game to have some incredibly poignant take-home message that will make me a better person.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

mabels big day posted:

No mention of Earthbound, OP?

Game of Thrones and Mass Effect are so bad i would actually prefer anime. at least anime has some pretty great art and music a lot of the time

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:33

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

Stuntman posted:

Exactly. If we wish to tell good stories within videogames, we must break away from the traditional, narrow mold of what defines a video game, and instead experiment with alternative methods of storytelling. In this case, the level of interactivity, while admittedly low, does wonders to keep you invested in the story. By making it so you're the one "doing" the actions (i.e. causing them to happen with your input), the game keeps you invested in the story. The protagonist being a stand-in for you also accomplishes this.

that's a pretty high level troll if ive ever seen one. you should join the Impzone, you would be "welcome" there.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:34

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

icantfindaname posted:

Game of Thrones and Mass Effect are so bad i would actually prefer anime. at least anime has some pretty great art and music a lot of the time

and also have ownage stories and characters because anime loving rules

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:34

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Roger Tangerines posted:

I don't think that they're particularly "deep", whatever you mean by that, but I think that both those games are effective at inspiring an emotional response and empathy with the characters, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable goal for a story. I don't look for every game to have some incredibly poignant take-home message that will make me a better person.

There's a reason "melodrama" is a pejorative term

and actually many definitions of art hold that its purpose is to enlighten the viewer and make him/her a more cultured, sensitive person. in that view game of thrones is pornography, not art

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:34

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

Welcome to my Let's Play of 'The Last of Us', I'm joined by special guest commentator a T-800, t-800, how do you feel about the game so far?

Roger Tangerines posted:

I think that both those games are effective at inspiring an emotional response and empathy with the characters,

Shirkelton fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jul 6, 2014

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:35

Captain Baal: Oct 23, 2010; I Failed At Anime 2022

I didn't sit with that fucker in Season 2 of Walking Dead, he knows what he did.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:35

discount cathouse: Mar 25, 2009

Roger Tangerines posted:

I don't think that they're particularly "deep", whatever you mean by that, but I think that both those games are effective at inspiring an emotional response and empathy with the characters, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable goal for a story. I don't look for every game to have some incredibly poignant take-home message that will make me a better person.

im running out of feels meme pictures to post as replies to your posts so pretend i posted a funny feels face.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:35

Roger Tangerines: Apr 15, 2013; by Debbie Metallica

icantfindaname posted:

There's a reason "melodrama" is a pejorative term

so you think The Last Of Us is a melodrama?

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:35

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Roger Tangerines posted:

so you think The Last Of Us is a melodrama?

personally, I think The Last Of Us is a bad

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:36

murphyslaw: Feb 16, 2007; It never fails

bioware's upcoming masterpiece posted:

"I'm here to set things right. Also? To look dashing. That part's less difficult."

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:36

Hole Wolf: Apr 28, 2011

Roger Tangerines posted:

I don't think that they're particularly "deep", whatever you mean by that, but I think that both those games are effective at inspiring an emotional response and empathy with the characters, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable goal for a story. I don't look for every game to have some incredibly poignant take-home message that will make me a better person.

I don't look for any game to have that.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:37

O__O: Jan 26, 2011; by Cowcaster

Spec Ops the line is only good writing if you're a pseudo-intellectual rear end in a top hat, like the guy who wrote a book about the symbolism and themes of the game who met with the developers and it turned out things he was reading into were just engine glitches/limitations/accidents/etc.

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:37

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# ? May 2, 2024 22:03

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Is it fascism yet posted:

im running out of feels meme pictures to post as replies to your posts so pretend i posted a funny feels face.

like this one?

# ? Jul 6, 2014 02:37

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Imp Zone: Player's Choice > YCS Goldmine > Writing In Videogames - Princess Peach's Co-Dependency Subtext

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