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HulkaMatt posted:Seriously don't buy the argument for Lesnar in the HOF. I don't either, to be honest. For those unaware, the argument is that he drew pro wrestling fans to UFC and that it counts somehow. I don't see how that has any bearing on his pro wrestling hall of fame status.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:02
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NotQuiteQuentin posted:Warrior has never been a good candidate. Such a short time period on top (and really wasn't doing the business they hoped he would be doing.) Horrible worker, and not really well liked by his contemporaries. Punk gets hit by recency. You're going to have to be a Cena or Tanahashi to get in first ballot as an active/recently retired wrestler. Hennig isn't a HOFer by any means but he is incredibly well thought of inside the industry from a work standpoint. And Owen gets a lot of sympathy votes (as cold as it sounds.) I feel like Hamada deserves serious consideration in light of the fact that he and Sasuke are kinda the grandfathers of the very concept of Lucharesu style. But I guess that just doesn't matter enough. I would also contend that Owen was underrated as a worker by fans in general. But that's just me.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:06
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It's the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. If CM Punk became a roller derby superstar that should be a factor.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:08
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Daniel Bryan posted:I don't either, to be honest. For those unaware, the argument is that he drew pro wrestling fans to UFC and that it counts somehow. I don't see how that has any bearing on his pro wrestling hall of fame status. Would this year and current run hinder Brock's chances of being in? Also I know Cena is already in, but this year seems like it is partially his fault too for the slump WWE is and neither are currently drawing people into buying the WWE Network.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:11
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KungFu Grip posted:Would this year and current run hinder Brock's chances of being in? Also I know Cena is already in, but this year seems like it is partially his fault too for the slump WWE is and neither are currently drawing people into buying the WWE Network. It definitely doesn't help him, that's for sure. I don't put too much stock into that though. There's too many factors to say it's all Brock's fault. At this stage though, he's not earning his keep. Brock will be interesting to see next year. I'm betting he's gone from WWE by that time. Will the slimmer ballot get him in? Or will him being out of wrestling weaken him? Daniel Bryan fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 04:14
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Daniel Bryan posted:I don't either, to be honest. For those unaware, the argument is that he drew pro wrestling fans to UFC and that it counts somehow. I don't see how that has any bearing on his pro wrestling hall of fame status. The problem is that, amongst voters, Sakuraba is in the Hall of Fame for doing similar things. But that's also not entirely a fair comparison with how early MMA was promoted in Japan (i.e. UWFI as REAL PURORESU.) But that gets people arguing slippery-slope. Personally, I see the difference between Lesnar's MMA experience and Saku's so I think he comes up short. If Lesnar spends a couple more years with WWE and had some extra business impact, I'd go vote for him. El Gallinero Gros posted:I feel like Hamada deserves serious consideration in light of the fact that he and Sasuke are kinda the grandfathers of the very concept of Lucharesu style. But I guess that just doesn't matter enough. Oh absolutely! The Japanese Indie (and American for that rate) scenes would look so different if Gran Hamada didn't go to Mexico. He also showed that someone his size could draw money in Japan, but he gets passed over for Onita, Fujinami, and Sayama. I personally put Sasuke on the tier right below Hamada and his contemporaries, but I'd still vote in him if I had a vote.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:20
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NotQuiteQuentin posted:The problem is that, amongst voters, Sakuraba is in the Hall of Fame for doing similar things. But that's also not entirely a fair comparison with how early MMA was promoted in Japan (i.e. UWFI as REAL PURORESU.) But that gets people arguing slippery-slope. Personally, I see the difference between Lesnar's MMA experience and Saku's so I think he comes up short. If Lesnar spends a couple more years with WWE and had some extra business impact, I'd go vote for him I totally get why people think Lesnar's UFC career shouldn't count since it's not like they're putting MMA only guys in. But his crossover appeal obviously helped him draw, and he was so spectacularly successful as a draw (and not bad in actual fights either) that I honestly feel it should count in his favor. His UFC success was undeniably also part of the reason he was able to collect a fat paycheck and a main event push despite a irregular schedule for his return to WWE. UFC isn't pro wrestling but it's silly to act like they're completely unrelated. Understand why others feel differently though.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:35
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:
Judging wrestlers based on number of 4 star matches is like judging hitters of today vs those of the dead ball era based on home runs.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:53
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MassRafTer posted:Judging wrestlers based on number of 4 star matches is like judging hitters of today vs those of the dead ball era based on home runs.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:13
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:Oatgan hasn't come through with adjusted Paragon+ stats so it's the best I could do. When Dave posted all of those numbers a part of me wanted to figure out a way to adjust them and the rest of me said "Hahaha no."
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Nov 20, 2014 05:15
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I'll be really depressed if Orton gets in and it doesn't open things up for Edge and Punk. He's not a bad candidate but he's not even close to Cena and drawing the line at Orton is basically letting WWE decide who gets in.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:59
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what the gently caress is going on with the lucha voters that they cant get a one of the like 5+ deserving candidates inducted?
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Nov 20, 2014 08:02
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Spermgod posted:what the gently caress is going on with the lucha voters that they cant get a one of the like 5+ deserving candidates inducted? The lucha ballot is super clogged. When you get 10 votes and there are a ton of deserving candidates it makes it hard for anyone to get in. That's why the 15 year rule was adopted.
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Nov 20, 2014 08:16
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MassRafTer posted:The lucha ballot is super clogged. When you get 10 votes and there are a ton of deserving candidates it makes it hard for anyone to get in. That's why the 15 year rule was adopted. Whats the 15 Year Rule?
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Nov 20, 2014 08:50
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"A new rule was instituted this year which is a 15-year rule. After being on the ballot for 15 years, a performer needs to at least get 50 percent of the vote or they are off the ballot."
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Nov 20, 2014 08:55
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Interesting discussion on yesterday's Observer Radio with Dave and Mike. Dave thinks Bryan is a much stronger candidate than I thought he would.
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Nov 21, 2014 19:26
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Daniel Bryan posted:Interesting discussion on yesterday's Observer Radio with Dave and Mike. Dave thinks Bryan is a much stronger candidate than I thought he would. I was the one who asked about CIMA. I'm starting to do some research into his candidacy (I don't have a vote, for clarity sake.) Does anyone have any experience with late 90s Japanese Indie Scene (particularly MPro?)
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Nov 21, 2014 19:35
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Daniel Bryan posted:Interesting discussion on yesterday's Observer Radio with Dave and Mike. Dave thinks Bryan is a much stronger candidate than I thought he would. Was surprised by that too. And The fact that he had the same stance for Yuji Nagata.
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Nov 21, 2014 19:40
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Well, looking at it I can see where Bryan can easily get in on work alone. Best Technical Wrestler (2005) Best Technical Wrestler (2006) Best Technical Wrestler (2007) Best Technical Wrestler (2008) Best Technical Wrestler (2009) Best Technical Wrestler (2010) Best Technical Wrestler (2011) Best Technical Wrestler (2012) Best Technical Wrestler (2013) Most Outstanding Wrestler (2006) Most Outstanding Wrestler (2007) Most Outstanding Wrestler (2008) Most Outstanding Wrestler (2009) Most Outstanding Wrestler (2010) Match of the Year (2007) vs Takeshi Morishima So the best worker in the world for 5 years according to Observer subscribers, even more technical wrestler awards, plus a very successful Wrestlemania built around him does seem to add to his profile.
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Nov 21, 2014 19:57
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Daniel Bryan posted:Interesting discussion on yesterday's Observer Radio with Dave and Mike. Dave thinks Bryan is a much stronger candidate than I thought he would. What did he say on Bryan? (And Nagata too)
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Nov 21, 2014 19:59
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Abrasive Obelisk posted:What did he say on Bryan? (And Nagata too) If I remember correctly, as a worker Nagata is a hall of famer but he didn't draw as well as a hall of famer.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:04
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mariooncrack posted:If I remember correctly, as a worker Nagata is a hall of famer but he didn't draw as well as a hall of famer. Bryan, essentially the same thing. Hall of Fame level worker, not really a hall of fame draw but has a better case than most of the candidates because of Wrestlemania.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:09
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The big thing with Nagata was his being able to have high quality matches at this stage of his career. Basically the resurgence of NJPW has added quality longevity to his resume instead of just some cheap crap years tacked onto the end like a lot of old guys have.
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Nov 21, 2014 22:54
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Dave doesn't love the Fabs so he is a mark who makes poo poo up. Nagata was #1 with active wrestlers. He's got the argument that worked for Kurt Angle but not Dick Murdoch. Continuing to be on big shows should help him.
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Nov 21, 2014 23:18
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It probably helps that Nagata's and Angle's careers are both mostly on video tape so it's easy to go back and see their biggest matches. I have this feeling that they may be taking away the criteria for being a draw out at least it won't be a big factor in the future. No one wrestler is a draw anymore, it's the draw of the promotion, or at least it is for WWE
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Nov 21, 2014 23:43
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mariooncrack posted:It probably helps that Nagata's and Angle's careers are both mostly on video tape so it's easy to go back and see their biggest matches. excuse me but hiroshi tanahashi is a big draw on ippv
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Nov 21, 2014 23:51
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Those best technical wrestler awards are really near-meaningless at this point in time. That's not to say Bryan doesn't have a case, just the lack of meaning of the awards. Dave never knocks Tanahashi or Nakamura for the drop in NJPW's business prior to this current period. Sure, you can give Tana (my fav) credit for the rise, but he was a top guy when the promotion was down.
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Nov 22, 2014 00:15
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I honestly think Okada and Nakamura are bigger draws of American wrestling fans compared to Tanahashi. Like I know the Japanese fans matter more, but Okada and more so Nakamura just connect with American/non-Japanese speaking fans and I think the two ROH/NJPW shows are kind of proof of it.
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Nov 22, 2014 00:21
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Can people please try and get Edge through next time? Dude deserves it, and he ain't going anywhere any time soon.
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Nov 22, 2014 00:40
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KungFu Grip posted:I honestly think Okada and Nakamura are bigger draws of American wrestling fans compared to Tanahashi. Like I know the Japanese fans matter more, but Okada and more so Nakamura just connect with American/non-Japanese speaking fans and I think the two ROH/NJPW shows are kind of proof of it. Given that less than 1,000 American fans were buying the iPPVs and less than 1,000 extra fans were at the ROH/NJPW compared to the typical ROH show this doesn't matter at all even if it is provable.
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Nov 22, 2014 00:42
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ChampRamp posted:Those best technical wrestler awards are really near-meaningless at this point in time. That's not to say Bryan doesn't have a case, just the lack of meaning of the awards. I don't know if it's fair to blame Tana/Naka about the NJPW downturn. There were so many extraneous factors that the two weren't involved with. Seeing that it never hurt Tanahashi's candidacy, one could suppose that it doesn't hurt Nakamura (which is a bigger thing since the new three musketeers were supposed to be Nakamura, Shibata and then Tanahashi and Nakamura was more blamed for it even though he was a 24 year old kid booked into shoot fights.)
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Nov 22, 2014 07:18
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ChampRamp posted:Dave never knocks Tanahashi or Nakamura for the drop in NJPW's business prior to this current period. Sure, you can give Tana (my fav) credit for the rise, but he was a top guy when the promotion was down. Well they're the biggest faces in the company at a time where business is the best it's been in years. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Tana & Nakamura were really considered THE GUYS during the period of decline - and by the time they were the company had reached already the lowest possible point. HulkaMatt fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 07:55
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mariooncrack posted:It probably helps that Nagata's and Angle's careers are both mostly on video tape so it's easy to go back and see their biggest matches. or maybe it just means that the business is in a down period and there shouldn't be a rush to induct people just for the sake of having modern inductees
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Nov 22, 2014 08:19
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NotQuiteQuentin posted:I don't know if it's fair to blame Tana/Naka about the NJPW downturn. There were so many extraneous factors that the two weren't involved with. Seeing that it never hurt Tanahashi's candidacy, one could suppose that it doesn't hurt Nakamura (which is a bigger thing since the new three musketeers were supposed to be Nakamura, Shibata and then Tanahashi and Nakamura was more blamed for it even though he was a 24 year old kid booked into shoot fights.) I get that it's almost certainly not Tana/Naka being top guys during that point in time (booking), but it really is something to consider when you say a guy has no negatives against him like Dave said. Should it have hurt Tana's campaign (or Naka's)? I don't know, but it should be something to consider, which Big Dave just forgets. The one difference beyond booking (and departures) is Okada being a top guy. Should he get a good amount of credit for this turn around? Probably. HulkaMatt posted:Well they're the biggest faces in the company at a time where business is the best it's been in years. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Tana & Nakamura were really considered THE GUYS during the period of decline - and by the time they were the company had reached already the lowest possible point. I wish I could find that business graph over the past decade to tell when exactly the two were on top and where business was at, but I can't find it.
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Nov 22, 2014 18:42
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I wish someone would do deep draw analysis for Edge. I feel like his work is very strong but not hall of fame level, so drawing is what's going to put him over if he's ever getting in.
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Nov 22, 2014 19:15
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Daniel Bryan posted:I wish someone would do deep draw analysis for Edge. I feel like his work is very strong but not hall of fame level, so drawing is what's going to put him over if he's ever getting in. I think he's a hall of fame talent who was never viewed as such by his employer so some people have trouble separating those two things.
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Nov 22, 2014 19:40
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sportsgenius86 posted:I think he's a hall of fame talent who was never viewed as such by his employer so some people have trouble separating those two things. What? He was one of the most consistently pushed guys from 2006 until retirement. I never thought he was a super worker but a really good one. A great promo though. There's guys you can argue weren't pushed and that hurts them, I'm not sure Edge is one of them.
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Nov 22, 2014 19:45
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I always thought Edge matches were dull as dishwater if they didn't involve a hardcore gimmick. But he should probably get in on the strength of just that stuff at the end of the day. I don't think the fact that he was one of the least protected main eventers in WWE history should factor in, but maybe it does with some people.
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Nov 22, 2014 20:12
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ChampRamp posted:I get that it's almost certainly not Tana/Naka being top guys during that point in time (booking), but it really is something to consider when you say a guy has no negatives against him like Dave said. Should it have hurt Tana's campaign (or Naka's)? I don't know, but it should be something to consider, which Big Dave just forgets. If you start on top when business is bad, then as you become established and are viewed as a major star business improves it is absolutely stupid to view the bad times as your fault. The turnaround started before Okada and business has continued to improve since he became one. No one forgets the bad period, especially when it comes to Nakamura. People love to discuss how a guy with seemingly no charisma became this fountain of it.
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Nov 22, 2014 20:13
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MassRafTer posted:If you start on top when business is bad, then as you become established and are viewed as a major star business improves it is absolutely stupid to view the bad times as your fault. The turnaround started before Okada and business has continued to improve since he became one. No one forgets the bad period, especially when it comes to Nakamura. People love to discuss how a guy with seemingly no charisma became this fountain of it. The issue is that I think Tanahashi was one of the major stars when business was bad, not just starting at that point in time. I wish I could find real business numbers, but he was in a top spot going back to like Wrestle Kingdom 1. By that point, he's established. ChampRamp fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 20:32
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