|
lol ok I gave you a respectful response and it's a meltdown now learns me for taking you seriously I guess
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 15:49 |
|
|
Maybe it is my ESL, but you did come off like "I am mad as hell and I ain't gonna take it anymore!" there. I like your Dishonored LP. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:37
|
|
|
yeah you know what i can see that that's fair enough
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:38
|
|
|
Psion posted:One of the other problems of this change It seems like the entire system is built for a group of six friends that play HoE or Suicidal and are perfectly coordinated (know the best class choices, constantly communicate with VOIP, never panic, know the exact spots to cover in every map, etc), which despite what people on TWI's forums say, is a very small minority. Those people are going to beat matches far more than your random pubbie ever will because of factors the game will never be able to control, so why bother trying to cater to them? Incidentally, the ones saying the resistance system isn't hard to adapt to are the type that only play with friends in very difficult difficulties and have a perfectly coordinated team. It's everyone else getting pissed about it because it makes playing a bitch and annoying.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:42
|
|
|
Why did TW do this and PvP instead of adding classes and weapons to the game... Seems pretty obvious that's what people would be more happy about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:46
|
|
|
Was PVP even in the original design document? I honestly thought it was a waste of time; if I wanted to play L4D I'd play L4D.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
I dislike the resistance system in general, but the incap system is okayish, I could see myself warming up to it. They really need to fix gunbutting not stumbling, especially seeing as making enemies stumble was the point of gunbutting. Actually, they should just remove stumbling from using the new system and just have it as things that zeds consistently do like it always did. But in regards to the resistance system, I feel as though my judgement on it is somewhat clouded by how convoluted it is. If they, say, had icons on your HUD indicating what zeds are weak to the weapon you're holding or resist it, that would've been nice. I've spent a few hours adjusting from the system and all I can notice is that bloats die to fire and explosives now and everything else seems to just tank every weapon except the microwave gun. Oh and Husks take three .500 shots to kill, two with max stats at 25 Gunslinger, and also that Gorefasts take way too many bullets to decap with handguns. Then again, I'm fairly certain it is how it already appears to be (bad), but adding a system for clarity would still be appreciated. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jun 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 19:54
|
|
|
Theta Zero posted:I dislike the resistance system in general, but the incap system is okayish, I could see myself warming up to it. They really need to fix gunbutting not stumbling, especially seeing as making enemies stumble was the point of gunbutting. Actually, they should just remove stumbling to work with the system and just have it as things that zeds consistently do. Adding cute little icons that pop up when you hit a zed with a weapon it isn't weak to doesn't change the fact that the system inherently makes it unfun to shoot critters; the primary point of the game. It is annoying and a chore having to put a ton of ammo into nearly everything because the devs thought it would really rock if your class could only really be effective on one or two enemies for the sake of adding teamwork. You can no longer make Stalkers go airborne with the shotgun because oh noooo, that doesn't fit the optimized role for the Support class anymore. No more Zed BBQs because everything laughs off fire damage. Get that MWG or else you're not playing Firebug the optimized, Tripwire way. Can't save yourself from a Stalker or Crawler rush anymore as almost anything except a Commando because you didn't have a Commando that is somehow magically able to kill every Crawler and Stalker as soon as they spawn in from any direction before they reach anyone. Don't even think about trying make it rain gibs with the Demo like you could before because of a combo of reduced explosion radii for his weapons and most enemies shrugging off explosive damage. Maybe you should go back into your corner with your RPG-7 and wait for the Fleshpounds to arrive, boy?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Theta Zero posted:but adding a system for clarity would still be appreciated. I think adding a bunch of HUD stuff to indicate resists is just going to mean a convoluted HUD - you can't make a system like this discoverable. Stun is a good incap, and it does add something to Sharp, but overall there are too many kinds and too many effects and too many resists - trying to put that on a HUD in a way which is glancable is, in my view, both implausible and treating the symptom and not the cause. stuff like "firebug vs husk bad" is easy to remember and makes sense - it's incredibly discoverable. Of course the flamethrower enemy ain't gonna give a gently caress about fire. Stuff like "sirens resist this and this and that and this and those but not this" is untenable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
I know. Sort of. Which is why I said I'm pretty sure it's exactly how it feels, which is really bad. But if Tripwire is hard set on implementing this, which is reasonable to assume given their history with EA for this game, at the very least a system to make it more understandable would be nice. I'm nothing if not a passive man.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
Psion posted:I think adding a bunch of HUD stuff to indicate resists is just going to mean a convoluted HUD - you can't make a system like this discoverable. Stun is a good incap, and it does add something to Sharp, but overall there are too many kinds and too many effects and too many resists - trying to put that on a HUD in a way which is glancable is, in my view, both implausible and treating the symptom and not the cause.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 21:20
|
|
|
The thing that drives me batty is that there seems to be two teams at Tripwire: one that adds user accessibility features like boss health bars and class icons that can be seen through walls and one that adds insanely obfuscated garbage like resistances. These teams don't speak to each other. Please don't take this as a hint to remove boss health bars, they are fun and good. Also it feels like Hans spawns a lot more Zeds when he's healing. Like...3 times as many. This is also fun and good.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 21:34
|
|
|
resistances make no sense. I dont see how they improve the game. They came completely out of left field as well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 21:38
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:Yeah, firebug v husk is fine, and adding in a metal-armored dude that's resistant to bullets but gets cooked by fire and easily stunned by explosives would be fine too, but that's not what happened. Sadly. There's even natural roles that emerge from things like some classes having high damage, low RoF, long reload weapons being more vulnerable to Stalkers/Clots/etc than the guys with high RoF, low damage or shotguns or whatever. That's a natural role that just doesn't work anymore because some gun types suddenly don't do damage to arbitrary targets for some reason. I like it when roles develop naturally. It gives the game some diversity and character. I thought it was neat how the Commando could kill trash at range, but also take out Scrakes with well-placed shots and clear out a stray Husk the rest of the team couldn't easily focus on, blast the Sirens that come with Fleshpounds to give your Zerk some breathing room, and pop Bloats before they got close and become living shields for Zeds. But, in TWI's infinite wisdom, you can no longer do anything as a Commando except glue your rear end to the floor and kill Crawlers and Stalkers as your priority targets because of the resistance system making it a pain in the rear end to kill anything stronger than a Clot. closeted republican fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 21:53
|
|
|
Questioner86 posted:Sorry to hear you guys don't like the revised resist system, but I'm going to go ahead and deny any requests for heads on sticks. I've been play testing A LOT over the last couple of weeks and had some of the most intense and fun experiences playing KF2 in those final playtests once the system really started to take shape and I'm not keen on firing anyone the company because they had fun during a play test. Okay realtalk constructive feedback dude: If you really want the game to be about people naturally making a team comp that covers all avenues, then the class-weapon system needs to go. If you need certain weapons by design you can't lock them to classes that then also have to level in a very lengthy way (in a system that leaves many of them utter garbage before significant level investment). People cannot adapt because they don't have every class at max level. Decouple guns from classes and yeah - a dude can go "we don't have microwaves we are getting screwed by sirens, I'll pick one up". Then reason this probably didn't show in your internal tests is because you can skip the grind and/or already have every class maxed. Of course people are going to be able to adapt at that point, but it's utterly unrealistic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 22:10
|
|
|
 Killing Floor 2.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 22:30
|
|
|
ZearothK posted:I hope Questioner didn't peace out from the frankly childish vitriol in this thread. My ire is directed at the mechanics, not the Messenger  Questioner has basically been good people for the majority of things.So I'm so far expecting off his robotic dismissal of concerns to be just getting burnt out dealing with "TWI does something that punches fun in the balls while calling it an improvement. Is the only staff member around to scream obscenities over latest change at." Every single time TWI comes up with some kind of  "improvement" that ends up being a slog and/or ignoring the stuff people keep asking to get changed.... Or changing it then going "So we made THIS part even harder! To make up for toning down the bullshit overkill!" It's harder to appreciate them finally trying to fix busted rear end unfun difficult parts of a boss... If they just turn around and immediately buff other parts of the boss, rather than see how it shakes out with the reductions and then add more difficulty back if needed, LATER. So much of this seems to be trying to preemptively avoid as much incremental LIVE PLAYERBASE balance testing as possible, and just making wild stabs in the dark at guesswork of what the end result should be to just avoid the workload. Instead of, you know, testing stuff incrementally with the live playerbase in their early access game. Have a complete overhaul! Now, wait until our next internally tested complete overhaul. If you are really, really lucky, we might tweak some individual parts in any way that isn't a player nerf. Again, that's all ire at mechanics and the TWI design. Not the poor messenger dealing with the aftermath. Section Z fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jun 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 22:34
|
|
|
Klaus88 posted:
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2016 22:39
|
|
|
It's the problem of not understanding why people want to play their game. Most people just want to launch the game, pop zombie heads, and have a good time. What the devs seem to want is a very challenging co-op game that demands team composition and MMO-raid levels of coordination. Thing is, I don't see the action game full of exploding zombie heads and giant monsters with chainsaws and drill-hands and cancel my WoW subscription. And the complaints kind of stem from problems with difficulty levels. For a group of friends who play regularly, Easy and Normal become a joke rather quickly, not to mention the progression issues with those difficulties. So Hard seems like it should be the difficulty where you get more progression but you have to ramp up your teamwork. And hard mostly is well-designed. It doesn't require sperg-level play, but you can't get away with everybody just pooping around. Unfortunately, there's a dice roll as to whether you'll get a really fun boss or one that requires you to break game mechanics while he one-shots everybody. Then when they finally balance that, everybody must now pick precisely the right class and shoot precisely the right enemy. And the only way to know this is to study a wiki and memorize it. This is the problem with internal testing. It is done by people sitting in the same room who get to communicate with or are developers. It doesn't take into factors of public testing like internet latency, lack of communication, lack of in-depth knowledge that's not in the main game, etc. It's why everyone's so sour about the EA aspect of everything. It's not even being remotely considered even though it's supposed to be the closest thing to a release market. Plan Z fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jun 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:05
|
|
|
Plan Z posted:It's the problem of not understanding why people want to play their game. Most people just want to launch the game, pop zombie heads, and have a good time. What the devs seem to want is a very challenging co-op game that demands team composition and MMO-raid levels of coordination. Thing is, I don't see the action game full of exploding zombie heads and giant monsters with chainsaws and drill-hands and cancel my WoW subscription. I'm not sure if it's because they genuinely want it to be a hardcore co-op game or because that's what they think the players want because of the diehard players on their official forums and Reddit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:12
|
|
|
Klaus88 posted:
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:14
|
|
|
closeted republican posted:I'm not sure if it's because they genuinely want it to be a hardcore co-op game or because that's what they think the players want because of the diehard players on their official forums and Reddit. And that was the issue I had with them taking metrics. The player population absolutely tanked and is still going down. So who's left? People who are still playing the game in whatever state it's in and insisting nothing is wrong, which taints all kinds of things like the difficulty curve where the ~1000 player max population give a bad insight to how the game is really being played. It doesn't take into account all of those thousands and thousands of people who played it, quit for some reason, and never gave feedback. I can understand TWI being wary because supposedly focus-testing hosed RO2 up so bad after its beta where they were forced to Frankenstein CoD-like play into their milsim instead of fixing bugs, but this game sold like over 800,000 copies in EA and I'm wondering how they think it'll go post-release when hundreds of thousands of people bought the game and only a few hundred are playing it each evening now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:17
|
|
|
Have you guys watched much Kitchen Nightmares before? A scenario you'd see a lot on the show is failing restaurants with odd menus that have very limited appeal. The owners were always terrified to overhaul the menu because they were afraid of losing what tiny clientele they had left. The problem tends to be a focus on catering to the small group that stayed instead of the large group that left. Don't know why I thought of that just now. edit:  Plan Z
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:22
|
|
|
Plan Z posted:And that was the issue I had with them taking metrics. The player population absolutely tanked and is still going down. So who's left? People who are still playing the game in whatever state it's in and insisting nothing is wrong, which taints all kinds of things like the difficulty curve where the ~1000 player max population give a bad insight to how the game is really being played. It doesn't take into account all of those thousands and thousands of people who played it, quit for some reason, and never gave feedback. I can understand TWI being wary because supposedly focus-testing hosed RO2 up so bad after its beta where they were forced to Frankenstein CoD-like play into their milsim instead of fixing bugs, but this game sold like over 800,000 copies in EA and I'm wondering how they think it'll go post-release when hundreds of thousands of people bought the game and only a few hundred are playing it each evening now. That's a really good point about metrics I haven't thought about before. I wouldn't be surprised that their metrics will eventually reveal that the resistances haven't really affected the gameplay because the few people that'll stick with KF2 once the shine of the new update dulls managed to tough the resistances out or played in Normal, giving them an extremely skewed look at the game that ignores the many criticisms of the resistances from places like here, 4chan, and Reddit. quote:Have you guys watched much Kitchen Nightmares before? A scenario you'd see a lot on the show is failing restaurants with odd menus that have very limited appeal. The owners were always terrified to overhaul the menu because they were afraid of losing what tiny clientele they had left. The problem tends to be a focus on catering to the small group that stayed instead of the large group that left. Wasn't Payday 2 in a similar situation, but managed to reverse the trend? I hope TWI takes some ques from Overkill and makes the game not cater to a small group of diehards on the official forums and Reddit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:30
|
|
|
http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/932623652014953127 Some, uh, "buffs" to resistances? They're planning on making Zeds not have as-stupid resistances to some of the more common guns. They also nerfed railgun auto-lock-on damage.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:31
|
|
|
Theta Zero posted:http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/932623652014953127 These are just band-aids on the festering problem that is the resistance system.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:33
|
|
|
Theta Zero posted:http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/932623652014953127 Wait. The railgun has a second firing mode? I never checked
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:34
|
|
|
Kikas posted:Wait. The railgun has a second firing mode? I never checked It just allowed free aim. It didn't do anything but allow that, so they nerfed it so you actually need to move your mouse to hit heads now which you'd figure would be standard for a sniper class.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:35
|
|
|
quote:M79 will now kill a siren with a direct hit in one hit Good news guys, they fixed Demo!
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:52
|
|
|
DoombatINC posted:Have you guys watched much Kitchen Nightmares before? A scenario you'd see a lot on the show is failing restaurants with odd menus that have very limited appeal. The owners were always terrified to overhaul the menu because they were afraid of losing what tiny clientele they had left. The problem tends to be a focus on catering to the small group that stayed instead of the large group that left. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:53
|
|
|
Sykic posted:Good news guys, they fixed Demo! Christ Tripwire is so out of touch. Yes, the biggest problem with Sirens is that Demos couldn't OHKO them with the M79.  I imagine one of the Tripwire guys looking over the complaints and grumpily saying "Fine. I'll make Sirens die from one M79 grenade to shut them the gently caress up".
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 00:55
|
|
|
DoombatINC posted:Have you guys watched much Kitchen Nightmares before? A scenario you'd see a lot on the show is failing restaurants with odd menus that have very limited appeal. The owners were always terrified to overhaul the menu because they were afraid of losing what tiny clientele they had left. The problem tends to be a focus on catering to the small group that stayed instead of the large group that left. You're speaking my language since I recently quit a food job I helped start up with over similar reasons. I get it. It sucks to have a bunch of people jump down your throat and tell you that something you created is bad when you feel that they're looking at it the wrong way. A chef I worked for had it one day when one of those types who cuts their steak into strips before eating it squeezed out all the juice and complained it was dry. He then had it out with the customer who didn't understand what the problem was, not realizing there was an onus upon the consumer for his dining experience as well. But the difference here is someone said "come in and try our beef" with marketing that would leave people expecting a steak or burger suddenly has to plan out a multi-course menu of high-end beef dishes and choose the right wine for each.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 01:16
|
|
|
ZearothK posted:But really, feeling like your guns are powerful is in my opinion one of the core elements of KF2, your gunplay is top notch, feeling like you are firing pea-shooters runs counter to that. I do agree that a better way to do increase challenge is by increasing the number of zeds, because that increases the amount of things being dismembered/blown/burned in fun ways, as opposed to making enemies bullet sponges. Hell, I don't even get mad if I die late in a wave after doing my part in painting the map red, because it is fun to do that. Just don't spawn four sirens at once. Well said. The game right now has an identity crisis. As you said, the core elements that make this game fun is the gunplay and pacing. In some ways, the classic KF experience reminded me a lot of Doom 2 in the sense that you are constantly managing hordes of enemies using weapons that have a very specific purpose in a given scenario or play style. The game is at its absolute best when you are clearing out trash, but are slowly overwhelmed and forced to dodge and weave through traffic to get to teammates for help when a fleshpound or scrake shows up. Prioritizing threatening targets is fun and should be the aim to get players to cooperate more - not by arbitrarily degrading weapon stats on certain enemies. Give us more enemies. Introduce new monsters that have certain characteristics that make them more dangerous and then sprinkle them in the same way as the scrakes or fleshpounds. This will make the game more difficult and increase teamplay, without making the regular enemies feel like a chore and by extension, the game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 02:47
|
|
|
I thought about launching KF1 to see how it compares, since I got it for free w/ my purchase of KF2 at some point. Then I saw the $70 or so worth of DLC that I don't have. Did they give me a free game under the hopes I'd empty my wallet? A lot of it looked cosmetic at first, but a few I picked at random seemed to imply that they provided new weapons. How's Payday 2 and Vermintide doing these days? Anyone else move on to those? I heard Payday 2 had some serious problems with microtransactions affecting game balance, but I can't seem to find a consensus as to whether or not that was ever dealt with satisfactorily.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:09
|
|
|
Payday 2's MTs have zero effect on gameplay now. You can get stat boost drops which you can attach to any gun which do the same thing as stat boost skins, except better (Because they're more flexible) - and those are for free. also at the end of this month every single drop in Payday 2 will be free - no more 2.50 drills to open your safes. so yeah, it's more than dealt with. e: they also redid the skill system and made the game even more fun than before. Not like that's a pointed reminder or anything. Psion fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jun 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:13
|
|
|
Yeah, Payday 2 fixed the MT problem in the best way they could have twice-over now, first by making the stat gains not tied to purchases and then by just removing it altogether.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 03:26
|
|
|
On the plus side at least people post in this thread again
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:11
|
|
|
Severed posted:Well said. The game right now has an identity crisis. As you said, the core elements that make this game fun is the gunplay and pacing. In some ways, the classic KF experience reminded me a lot of Doom 2 in the sense that you are constantly managing hordes of enemies using weapons that have a very specific purpose in a given scenario or play style. The game is at its absolute best when you are clearing out trash, but are slowly overwhelmed and forced to dodge and weave through traffic to get to teammates for help when a fleshpound or scrake shows up. Prioritizing threatening targets is fun and should be the aim to get players to cooperate more - not by arbitrarily degrading weapon stats on certain enemies. I'd like to mention that you can totally recreate the KF1/2 experience within Doom 2016 and it's basically infinitely more fun while potentially way more challenging (all up to the map designer though). See that's the thing, resistances aren't challenging, they're frustrating, they're obtuse. If resistances were to address why certain classes were just better, it's failed. It should have been obvious from the drat start as well, this is basically "level 15 siren resistance" writ large, this is taking the major issue with Demo and expanding to to every single class and yet somehow expecting it to fix things. This is crippling every class with the Commando 1v1 Scrake/Pound experience; who the gently caress thinks that's fun? You're implementing the main reason why the bottom tier classes were awful on the whole drat game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 04:16
|
|
|
OneDeadlyBum posted:How's Payday 2 and Vermintide doing these days? Anyone else move on to those? I heard Payday 2 had some serious problems with microtransactions affecting game balance, but I can't seem to find a consensus as to whether or not that was ever dealt with satisfactorily. The Payday 2 was completely wrong from the get-go. People screamed about pay-to-win because a handful of skins gave out something like +4 stability (out of 100) or one extra bullet in reserve for a sniper rifle. I don't know where on Earth you heard it unbalanced anything.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 05:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 15:49 |
|
|
Payday 2 is fun and cool, I'm not a huge fan of Vermintide but it's by no means a bad game. I don't think the latter is doing so hot in playerbase but there's definitely still goons playing it if that's your bag.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2016 05:55
|
|
