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 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/19/fourteen-years-of-tory-rule-have-left-britain-a-lazy-mess/
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Apr 20, 2024 19:29
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Davethulhu posted:
Hoo boy that is rancid
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Apr 20, 2024 19:38
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tristeham posted:sam kriss writes for the spectator now lol that newspaper is like the pervert x-men
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Apr 20, 2024 19:41
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quote:Andy Cook, CEO of the CSJ, has rightly pointed out that the focus must shift “on what people can do, rather than what they can’t.” Strong argument for Telegraph writers to quit and get on the dole.
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Apr 20, 2024 19:47
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JK Rowling is right to turn her blazing word wizardry on Kirstie Allsopp; this is no time for platitudes about “grown up debate”, “healing divisions and correcting misunderstandings”. There is no misunderstanding. The war goes on. Expelliarmus!
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Apr 20, 2024 20:08
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JK Rowling is just Ayn Rand for white women
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Apr 20, 2024 20:10
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mawarannahr posted:the Turkish government runs the brothels there. I don't think the pay or conditions are good, but there is insurance and people who will beat up problematic clients. I know one of the was on one of those mercilessly steep roads going to Taksim square because I had to pass by it on my way to Turkish lessons and it’s what made me replace my wardrobe with all turkish stuff from mavi and kotton so the promoters would stop following me all the way to the square. having the same menacing fishing tactics as those Vory bars where they rob gay tourists doesn’t speak well for them as an institution. probably for the best they’re gone.
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Apr 20, 2024 20:13
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How does increasing demand so prostitutes can seek less dangerous clients protect people from them in general? Presumably, someone looking for a victim is going to find one? Also, couldn't further normalizing men feeling entitled to women's bodies create more of these monsters?
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Apr 20, 2024 22:39
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Prostitutes receive exceptionally weak protection from police and care from society if something does happen to them due to stigma. They're basically an acceptable victim. So it is not at all safe to assume that someone looking for a victim would go for a non-prostitute instead. That's even leaving aside the extent to which these might be crimes of opportunity. And full criminalization hasn't made men feel any less entitled, so while that is a problem, that isn't a solution.
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Apr 20, 2024 23:35
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Whatever one thinks of prostitution, the fact that not a single sex worker organization supports criminalizing customers is pretty good indication that it does not make prostitution either rarer or safer.
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Apr 21, 2024 01:51
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Real hurthling! posted:did they have good working conditions? non-onerous hours? downside was all the dogs complaining about the windows
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Apr 21, 2024 03:07
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joepinetree posted:Whatever one thinks of prostitution, the fact that not a single sex worker organization supports criminalizing customers is pretty good indication that it does not make prostitution either rarer or safer. That's a huge leap.
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Apr 21, 2024 04:36
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thotsky posted:That's a huge leap. I'd take the word of sex worker organizations over that of goons who can't help but get very weird when women and sex are mentioned. Also, pretty sure that the main outcomes of France and Ireland adopting the "nordic model" has been a massive surge of violence against sex workers.
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Apr 21, 2024 05:09
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Cassian of Imola posted:Yes, prostitution is much like whiskey or black tar heroin in that all women can fulfil customer demand from their own bodies Ha. Actually looking at vices from a material angle is fun, because heroin IS something that can probably be controlled- historically, opiates seem to thrive the most with effective government sanctioned farming programs. Like Afghanistan under occupation turning out to be a narco-state. Cocaine apparently is even moreso with a very limited band of climate it grows in well enough to meaningfully farm. While of course, alcohol is notoriously impossible to meaningfully regulate since you can make it anywhere out of anything.
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Apr 21, 2024 05:37
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joepinetree posted:Whatever one thinks of prostitution, the fact that not a single sex worker organization supports criminalizing customers is pretty good indication that it does not make prostitution either rarer or safer. I would have thought this was obvious enough not to have to point it out, but people working as independent prostitutes now would all benefit financially from increased demand. Also, any 'sex worker organisation' would tend not to include or represent the interests of trafficked or foreign sex workers, those who are the least privileged and suffer the most under any system. joepinetree posted:Also, pretty sure that the main outcomes of France and Ireland adopting the "nordic model" has been a massive surge of violence against sex workers. Why would the nordic model result in more violence against sex workers than criminalising both sides of the transaction, which was the case prior to 2015 in Northern Ireland? It's much more likely that more violence was reported once sex workers weren't risking arrest by reporting violence against them.
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Apr 21, 2024 08:25
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here is a journalism article (on topic) about the nz model, which clearly works better than the fail swede one. the main issue (consistently raised by sex worker organisations, who obviously care about the interests of migrant sex workers) is that migrants aren't covered by decriminalisation, which was means to prevent trafficking but has caused exploitation instead. https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/06/26/sex-workers-reflect-on-20-years-of-decriminalisation/
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Apr 21, 2024 08:56
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^^^ beatenCassian of Imola posted:Why would the nordic model result in more violence against sex workers than criminalising both sides of the transaction, which was the case prior to 2015 in Northern Ireland? It's much more likely that more violence was reported once sex workers weren't risking arrest by reporting violence against them.
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Apr 21, 2024 08:59
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Toplowtech posted:The Strass, a sex workers syndicate, disagrees, pointing out that a significant number of prostitutes are illegal migrants in France and are afraid of being deported by cops. They manifested alongside Medecin Du Monde against a law "passed without even asking the opinion of people impacted by it". They're afraid of being deported no matter what the laws around prostitution are. Under full criminalisation, all sex workers fear being prosecuted when they report violence to the police. Under the nordic model, decriminalisation, or full legalisation, people won't be prosecuted for prostitution when they report violence, but they will still be prosecuted for violating immigration law. Full decriminalisation doesn't help foreign sex workers who immigrated illegally any more than the nordic model does, and it actually harms trafficked sex workers by making it easier to camouflage trafficking. That's why I argued for different policies to help these people. Cassian of Imola has issued a correction as of 09:12 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 09:06
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Cassian of Imola posted:They're afraid of being deported no matter what the laws around prostitution are. Under full criminalisation, all sex workers fear being prosecuted when they report violence to the police. Under the nordic model, decriminalisation, or full legalisation, people won't be prosecuted for prostitution when they report violence, but people who might be deported will still not go to the police. Full decriminalisation doesn't help foreign sex workers who immigrated illegally any more than the nordic model does, and it actually harms trafficked sex workers by making it easier to camouflage trafficking. Toplowtech has issued a correction as of 09:22 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 09:19
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exmarx posted:here is a journalism article (on topic) about the nz model, which clearly works better than the fail swede one. the main issue (consistently raised by sex worker organisations, who obviously care about the interests of migrant sex workers) is that migrants aren't covered by decriminalisation, which was means to prevent trafficking but has caused exploitation instead. The sex worker who talks about migrants, Dame Catherine Healy, is happy about decriminalisation, since you can't be prosecuted for things like keeping condoms in a massage parlour, but notes that migrant sex workers don't have many rights. This is true of any industry and proves my point that migrants are vulnerable no matter what laws you adopt around prostitution itself. If you want to help migrant workers you should change immigration law. Decriminalising johns has nothing to do with it. edit Cassian of Imola has issued a correction as of 09:31 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 09:21
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Toplowtech posted:"They are just illegal so gently caress them" isn't really helping the prostitutes. Also prostitution was legal (only proxenitism and street-walking wasn't) before the adoption of that model in France. So i fail to see how it helps in anyway. It's just a dumb one-size-fit-all model pushed by people too loving lazy to do an anti-person-trafficking police operation on the European scale. And yes there are better alternatives. I'm not saying gently caress migrant workers, I'm saying do something that helps them instead of something that doesn't. do I have to draw you a diagram
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Apr 21, 2024 09:22
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alright you do that, good luck meanwhile what should happen? just waiting for communism?
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Apr 21, 2024 09:32
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Goa Tse-tung posted:alright you do that, good luck did I wander into dnd by mistake
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Apr 21, 2024 09:33
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Cassian of Imola posted:I would have thought this was obvious enough not to have to point it out, but people working as independent prostitutes now would all benefit financially from increased demand. Also, any 'sex worker organisation' would tend not to include or represent the interests of trafficked or foreign sex workers, those who are the least privileged and suffer the most under any system. Buddy, pull up a map and you'll notice that there's another country called Ireland. Also, your continued assumption that independent sex workers are some rarety in the face of trafficked women isn't born out by data. But at least you're clear that you're totally willing to sacrifice them.
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Apr 21, 2024 14:48
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joepinetree posted:Buddy, pull up a map and you'll notice that there's another country called Ireland. Also, your continued assumption that independent sex workers are some rarety in the face of trafficked women isn't born out by data. But at least you're clear that you're totally willing to sacrifice them. I’ve been pretty intentionally avoiding this conversation but one thing I’ve noticed recently is that (in the us at least) all sex work is now referred to as trafficking by the media. Like you’ll read about a sting where a bunch of people got arrested or about the city looking to ‘clean up’ a rough block and it’s all sex trafficking this and sex trafficking that even if you get the sense from reading it that it’s probably just normal rear end sex work and pimping I feel like this is intentional to set off the Taken terror in suburbanites but maybe it’s just the medias tendency to use overly legal language when regurgitating police press releases as news
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Apr 21, 2024 14:57
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I’ve been pretty intentionally avoiding this conversation but one thing I’ve noticed recently is that (in the us at least) all sex work is now referred to as trafficking by the media. Like you’ll read about a sting where a bunch of people got arrested or about the city looking to ‘clean up’ a rough block and it’s all sex trafficking this and sex trafficking that even if you get the sense from reading it that it’s probably just normal rear end sex work and pimping I mean, same thing, the police are the ones dictating how the media talks about it and they absolutely want to set off the Taken terror.
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Apr 21, 2024 15:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I mean, same thing, the police are the ones dictating how the media talks about it and they absolutely want to set off the Taken terror. Yeah you’re probably right, it really bothers me because it seems to create this wrong sense of what’s happening that probably makes it harder to actually notice signs of real trafficking. If everyone is looking for wayfair shipping containers then they aren’t going to notice signs of real trafficking, which is a lot more to do with coercion and emotional manipulation, but also if all sex work is reduced to trafficking, and trafficking is understood to be this huge global conspiracy, then intense criminalization is really the only reasonable response, which ugh
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Apr 21, 2024 15:28
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joepinetree posted:Buddy, pull up a map and you'll notice that there's another country called Ireland. Also, your continued assumption that independent sex workers are some rarety in the face of trafficked women isn't born out by data. But at least you're clear that you're totally willing to sacrifice them. I'm not 'sacrificing' them, I'm saying that it's preferable to boost benefits for nonworkers to compensate for reduced demand rather than decriminalise johns and give cover to sex trafficking. HashtagGirlboss posted:I’ve been pretty intentionally avoiding this conversation but one thing I’ve noticed recently is that (in the us at least) all sex work is now referred to as trafficking by the media. Like you’ll read about a sting where a bunch of people got arrested or about the city looking to ‘clean up’ a rough block and it’s all sex trafficking this and sex trafficking that even if you get the sense from reading it that it’s probably just normal rear end sex work and pimping Both of you seem to have a narrow definition of sex trafficking that excludes any form of coercion except the most obvious and brutal, the 'Taken' kind. The data, joepinetree, shows that the vast majority of prostitutes live in poverty. They enter prostitution because they are poor, and it doesn't make them enough money to escape. That alone is a clear form of coercion, one which people itt would have no problem acknowledging in any other context where workers are abused. They are also disproportionately racial minorities, foreigners, and, in India for example, lower caste. It's a feature, not a bug. Women who are discriminated against are ignored by the police and easier for private parties to control and abuse. In any other context you'd probably see this as problematic. They are often begin prostitution as children, either, again, out of pure want or because they're forced into it by family members. They are disproportionately women and queer people serving almost exclusively male clientele, and earning money for male family members, pimps, and landlords. Again, in any other context... All of these features of the industry point to widespread coercion which amounts to sex trafficking even if, to begin with, a girl or young woman 'voluntarily' entered prostitution. I can't remember the last time I read something as blatantly misogynist as you handwaving all this as 'normal rear end pimping'. Take the American meatpacking industry: Tyson Foods illegally employs children and undocumented immigrants and has a terrible track record of worker health and safety. It tends to employ underprivileged people, racial minorities and the poor. You wouldn't blink if somebody said we should address problems in the meatpacking industry by limiting demand for meat and punishing the corporations. And meatpacking workers aren't even enslaved, killed, and raped at a higher rate than anybody else! But for some reason, you see even worse practices in prostitution and call it 'normal rear end pimping' that people get all worked up about because they watched Taken too many times
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Apr 21, 2024 15:40
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I feel like you’re entirely missing what I’m trying to say buddy, but stake out your moral high ground
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Apr 21, 2024 15:44
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I feel like you’re entirely missing what I’m trying to say buddy, but stake out your moral high ground just say virtue signalling
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Apr 21, 2024 15:50
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Yeah you’re probably right, it really bothers me because it seems to create this wrong sense of what’s happening that probably makes it harder to actually notice signs of real trafficking. If everyone is looking for wayfair shipping containers then they aren’t going to notice signs of real trafficking, which is a lot more to do with coercion and emotional manipulation, but also if all sex work is reduced to trafficking, and trafficking is understood to be this huge global conspiracy, then intense criminalization is really the only reasonable response, which ugh See also the 'trafficking' Qanon hysteria that similarly to 'grooming' serves the purpose of raising reactionary hysteria and drawing away attention from the actual predatory behaviour, pinning it all on evil minorities and nebulous supervillains while actively ignoring the ingrained and visible problems in their very own communities.
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Apr 21, 2024 15:51
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HashtagGirlboss posted:I’ve been pretty intentionally avoiding this conversation but one thing I’ve noticed recently is that (in the us at least) all sex work is now referred to as trafficking by the media. Like you’ll read about a sting where a bunch of people got arrested or about the city looking to ‘clean up’ a rough block and it’s all sex trafficking this and sex trafficking that even if you get the sense from reading it that it’s probably just normal rear end sex work and pimping Nice, educated liberals want a punitive approach to sex work. But they are aware that that makes them sound an awful lot like the reactionary right wingers they despise. So they need the figleaf of fighting sex trafficking in order to support cracking down on sex workers. And if you notice that all their anti-sex trafficking policies do very little to protect victims of sex trafficking and a lot to punish sex workers, they will do like cassian here has done and admit that for them all sex workers are victims of sex trafficking, even if they haven't been trafficked at all. And it is clear that that is what is going on because if sex worker and sex trafficking are the same (like cassian has said ), then why are all these punitive policies framed exclusively in terms of fighting sex trafficking?
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Apr 21, 2024 20:48
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joepinetree posted:Nice, educated liberals want a punitive approach to sex work. But they are aware that that makes them sound an awful lot like the reactionary right wingers they despise. So they need the figleaf of fighting sex trafficking in order to support cracking down on sex workers. And if you notice that all their anti-sex trafficking policies do very little to protect victims of sex trafficking and a lot to punish sex workers, they will do like cassian here has done and admit that for them all sex workers are victims of sex trafficking, even if they haven't been trafficked at all. And it is clear that that is what is going on because if sex worker and sex trafficking are the same (like cassian has said ), then why are all these punitive policies framed exclusively in terms of fighting sex trafficking? you're proposing to let the free market solve poverty among sex workers, and I'm the lib? Cassian of Imola has issued a correction as of 22:22 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 22:19
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Cassian of Imola posted:you're proposing to let the free market solve poverty among sex workers, and I'm the lib? Maybe he meant folding the sex workers in the administrative state so they could be administrators or government contractors.
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Apr 21, 2024 22:27
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Cassian of Imola posted:you're proposing to let the free market solve poverty among sex workers, and I'm the lib? Yeah, buddy, if we don't involve the police we're letting the "free market" take over. No, you're a lib because you're trying to justify regressive social policy through some weakass figleaf of technocracy. You want to sic the police on sex workers, but you can't admit that that is what you want, so instead you have to make this convoluted argument that its about reducing the demand for sex trafficking. Except that as you made clear, the trafficking part is entirely incidental to your dumbass take. And, again, it is clear that that is what you are doing because you keep trying to frame your argument in terms of sex trafficking even as you then admit that its not at all about trafficking. It's ok to think that in a fair society sex work shouldn't exist. But the way to get there is by empowering the workers, not by creating more situations where they are targeted by police. You know, as every single sex worker organization has pointed out. joepinetree has issued a correction as of 22:43 on Apr 21, 2024 |
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Apr 21, 2024 22:39
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joepinetree posted:Yeah, buddy, if we don't involve the police we're letting the "free market" take over. You hear the word 'trafficking' and your brain turns off because you think you're arguing with Sound of Freedom. Yes, sex trafficking does exist, and is prevalent in prostitution all over the world, even if you define it narrowly as women being moved across national borders by gangs; but that wasn't my main point. I just pointed out that decriminalising johns doesn't help trafficked women, and makes it easier for their traffickers to avoid detection. You can minimise it, call it an edge case, define the word however you like, I don't care. It's critical to understand, though, that all the alleged benefits of full decriminalisation can be achieved in a more egalitarian way, while avoiding the additional harms to [women prostituted under coercion], with nonworker benefits and immigration reform. Even if you disagree, I wish you would even once give some sign that you read and understood that arg instead of defaulting to yelling at the QAnon mom in your head Asking an organisation of sex workers how to solve [coercion] is like asking a coal miners' union how to solve global warming. Most of them aren't directly responsible for [coercion] but they will feel it in their wallet if any serious attempt is made to curb it. Moreover, expecting native European and Anglo-American camgirls on twitter to feel a natural solidarity with the plight of Ukrainians being prostituted to tourists in Dutch brothels, low-caste Indian women sold by their fathers and husbands, or any other woman suffering extreme violence and exploitation, is naïve. There can be very little overlap between the interests of a comparatively privileged sex worker whose main concern is growing her clientele and the interests of a sex worker whose main concern is escaping prostitution without being deported or killed (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2024 00:05
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AmyL posted:Maybe he meant folding the sex workers in the administrative state so they could be administrators or government contractors. temple prostitution ftw.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:22
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Cassian of Imola posted:You hear the word 'trafficking' and your brain turns off because you think you're arguing with Sound of Freedom. Yes, sex trafficking does exist, and is prevalent in prostitution all over the world, even if you define it narrowly as women being moved across national borders by gangs; but that wasn't my main point. I just pointed out that decriminalising johns doesn't help trafficked women, and makes it easier for their traffickers to avoid detection. You can minimise it, call it an edge case, define the word however you like, I don't care. It's critical to understand, though, that all the alleged benefits of full decriminalisation can be achieved in a more egalitarian way, while avoiding the additional harms to [women prostituted under coercion], with nonworker benefits and immigration reform. Even if you disagree, I wish you would even once give some sign that you read and understood that arg instead of defaulting to yelling at the QAnon mom in your head Literally no one has defended "just decriminalize and do nothing else." And I love how you keep going from "it's not about trafficking, but it is about trafficking, also all sex work is trafficking even if they haven't been trafficked." It's about as honest as acting as if all sex worker organizations are privileged cam girls in Europe and the US.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:45
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The Quiet Magic of Middle Sex Managers
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Apr 22, 2024 01:37
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Cassian of Imola posted:Asking an organisation of sex workers how to solve [coercion] is like asking a coal miners' union how to solve global warming. Most of them aren't directly responsible for [coercion] but they will feel it in their wallet if any serious attempt is made to curb it. Moreover, expecting native European and Anglo-American camgirls on twitter to feel a natural solidarity with the plight of Ukrainians being prostituted to tourists in Dutch brothels, low-caste Indian women sold by their fathers and husbands, or any other woman suffering extreme violence and exploitation, is naïve. listen the problem is these dumb sluts don't understand sex work like I do,
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Apr 22, 2024 02:08
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