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In this particular instance, we come to the intersection of Clan and race again, which is where it becomes a problem. On its own 'a supernatural entity's spiteful death curse is coming for you' is a cool concept - we've had it in plenty of films and novels in one form or another (the X-files episode 'Drive' for one particularly oWoDy example) because it is essentially just an invocation of nemesis in a rather dramatic and literal way. If it applied to the Ventrue rather than the Roma-coded Ravnos, I don't think we'd have the same 'oh gently caress's sake' issue, but there's legitimacy to critiquing the Clans on the basis of their ties to racial stereotypes and this is precisely one of those cases where the specific application falls straight into some very sticky and problematic territory even if the underlying device could be cool.
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Apr 25, 2024 03:14
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Yes, being chased around by a curse is cool. But, "no, it makes sense, because it is a magic curse" does not really free you from the burden of having your writing read and interpreted. In particular, I would expect or at least not even blink at a Ravnos curse that had to do with their antedeluvian founder being loving Dead, but they reaaalllly blew their opportunity to do something cool or interesting with it. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Apr 25, 2024 |
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Apr 25, 2024 05:48
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Schwarzwald posted:I'm a little confused here, because I read Loomer's post as arguing against that: I meant his takes on the Malkavians and some of the wider themes while taking issues with some of the takes provided by others on the thread. As someone that also deals with various neurodivergent issues with ADHD as well as other mental issues i grok where he's coming from. I've posted some trip reports about what my malkavian got up to in a chronicle and thematically those would not have worked with other clans. I also reject the labeling of Ravnos as Roma-coded as a hold over from previous editions. Revised saw them moving away from that (particularly in the Sabbat) and focusing more on the Indian aspects of the clan. And in V5, which again i admit had other issues, the focus is on them now moving through marginalized groups and refugees because it lets them mingle and hide. Which is it's own can of worms but at least fits with "vampire as parasite" as well as making them distinct from the other clans that tend to dwell among the less fortunate. The survivors of the Week of Nightmares dealt with years of struggle as other clans pushed against them even before ol' Zappie woke up. And the groundswell of recently embraced have no points of reference since so many Elders died. So the new blood are making up their own legends to fill that void. That's why you have different folks arguing that they descend from Loki, Anansi, or narcosaints. Or in my Ravnos' view they're the descendents of Huēhuehcoyōtl. The WoD is a setting where you have an chthonic cult with an unhealthy obsession with snakes, rebels going on about their lost golden city on the hill powered by child sacrifice, and ancient conspiracies reaching back to Constantinople. It's nice to have a group that outright rejects all that even if it's due to them being more focused on not bursting into flames. Zapathasura's wrath following them can be seen as much "Run comrade, the old world is behind you!" as an ancient blood god going "gently caress you guys!"
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Apr 25, 2024 08:14
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There's definitely an evolution in the coding, but part of the problem of any evolving game system and setting is that the ghost of early editions lingers in a way that's inescapable - so while you're quite right that the Ravnos are less explicitly Roma-coded as the line goes on (though I can't comment on V5) there remains both a generalizable memory of 'oh yeah, they were the Roma clan in the early days.' and the continuing presence of characters from the earlier period that prevent a clean break. Throw in a relative paucity of (particularly of well-executed) content touching on the new stuff and new focus compared to the core clans and you get a combination that leaves 'pursued by a supernatural curse' as having uncomfortable resonance with the early material in a way that makes the race-Clan connection come rushing to the fore. As an aside, I don't have the time to develop it but I think there could be a neat project in examining grognard editionism as a hauntological phenomenon, where each new edition is haunted by both the continuing existence of the previous and the potential new editions that changed other things. Fallout's in the middle of a real moment with that due to the series.
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Apr 25, 2024 09:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm autistic. I'm also not suggesting the commonality is extra senses -- that's the magical / vampire part -- but rather the experience of not being able to easily tune out or regulate the intensity of the senses you do have. Ok, fair, I just dislike the 'magical disability' trope as much as I dislike the 'magical negro' or 'magical native' trope. Autism is not my super power, it's simply...me.
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Apr 25, 2024 14:49
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I'm reminded of the Mekhet and their alternative weakness: Your reflection becomes alive and hates you. More stuff like that.
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Apr 25, 2024 15:11
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There was a homebrew book called Revamped that covered a lot of the main complaints but it looks like it's no longer on the STV.
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Apr 25, 2024 16:56
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So what would be the community reaction if a rouge editor decides to change the W5 Black Fury pregen gender from male to trans-male?
Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 00:18
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:So what would be the community reaction if a rouge editor decides to change the W5 Black Fury pregen gender from male to trans-male? The people who would be mad about it are already mad about W5 (see thread title: "werewolves into wereterriers") and nobody else would care. Bit of an odd question.
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Apr 26, 2024 01:42
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:So what would be the community reaction if a rouge editor decides to change the W5 Black Fury pregen gender from male to trans-male? Everyone would be excited about the Camazotz taking a greater role in the metaplot.
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Apr 26, 2024 02:02
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Dawgstar posted:The people who would be mad about it are already mad about W5 (see thread title: "werewolves into wereterriers") and nobody else would care. Bit of an odd question. Well I'd admit the mention of them fighting agenst misandrist in the write up will take a whole new context. Also Prepose Thread title change: They're turning the werewolves trans! Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 02:13
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:So what would be the community reaction if a rouge editor decides to change the W5 Black Fury pregen gender from male to trans-male? The W5 black fury pregen is Male? They sacrificed that sacred cow but apparently playing a Get of Fenris who isn't just south of a Nazi is physically impossible????
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Apr 26, 2024 03:01
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Kurieg posted:The W5 black fury pregen is Male? Yeah apparently parawolf wants to shift the tribes proity from justice for woman to justice In general. It just so happens that the pre gen is male and the write up say seek justice against "misandrists", which is to put simply not a good look. So assuming that some underpayed editor decides to gently caress over parawolf and add trans to all instances of male in his write up. Well the term misandrists take up a whole new meaning...
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Apr 26, 2024 03:29
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:
This is it This is how I die I'm pretty sure that's so stupid it kills me.
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Apr 26, 2024 03:41
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Apr 26, 2024 04:05
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Is the Bone Gnawer pregen a landlord trying to kick out his rent controlled tenants?
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Apr 26, 2024 04:06
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Kurieg posted:Is the Bone Gnawer pregen a landlord trying to kick out his rent controlled tenants? You won't believe what the Gale Stalker wants.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:17
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...less rights for indigenous peoples?
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Apr 26, 2024 04:18
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The whatever-Fianna-are-now could be a brave paratrooper of the Special Air Services, protecting good British Unionists from the scourge of the Catholic.
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Apr 26, 2024 04:36
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Has W5 still got a bunch of bioessentialist crap where werewolves are immune to abortions and hormones and basically every other medical technology even loosely related to gender justice or is that from older editions (even if "older" just means "W20" here)?
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Apr 26, 2024 04:41
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Yeah apparently parawolf wants to shift the tribes proity from justice for woman to justice In general. What book is this? There are no pregen characters in the core rulebook, even in the sample story. The character examples of Black Furies in there are an activist switching to illegal tactics, an EMT, a musician, and someone who guards territory. None of them have an explicit gender, and there's certainly no talk about "misandrists" in there. Is this guy from one of the premade stories? That said, the Black Furies were shifted to "those who seek justice at all costs." Since Achilli liked taking about action verbs a lot while developing it, Black Furies, "liberate, overcome, dismantle, and demolish." That part is, in fact, true from what I'm to take from the book. Ferrinus posted:Has W5 still got a bunch of bioessentialist crap where werewolves are immune to abortions and hormones and basically every other medical technology even loosely related to gender justice or is that from older editions (even if "older" just means "W20" here)? As far as I can tell, that's pretty much gone, thought I'd need to take another read to be certain. W5 kind of, sort of rolls with Forsaken's take on who becomes a werewolf now: anyone could be a werewolf for any reason. Genetics don't play a guaranteed part of it, and Kinfolk as depicted in previous editions no longer exist.
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Apr 26, 2024 06:39
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Kurieg posted:This is it Honestly I've seen the term "Neo-Libral" thrown around when describing W5. Though I personally expect the neo libs to be a bit more subtle when it comes to left leaning media, if only to provide some plausible deniability (oh no we're not cutting owl house short because we're homophobic, it just unprofitable, and we're also homophobic). By contrast W5 seems to be written much more malicious intention. Like the only people I can think that much Vitriol agenst the left is MAGA and the Russians...
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Apr 26, 2024 06:52
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Like the only people I can think that much Vitriol agenst the left is MAGA and the Russians... You seen the neolibs lately?
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Apr 26, 2024 06:56
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speaking of Werewolf,Dr Kool-AIDS posted:Werewolf game by the Night Road guy just dropped. Night Road was a massive and good Vampire text adventure, this should be good
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Apr 26, 2024 09:00
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Free Cog posted:What book is this? There are no pregen characters in the core rulebook, even in the sample story. The character examples of Black Furies in there are an activist switching to illegal tactics, an EMT, a musician, and someone who guards territory. None of them have an explicit gender, and there's certainly no talk about "misandrists" in there. Is this guy from one of the premade stories? Well I distinctly reamber a menton of a male black fury pregen during the w5 corebook release and mention of him fighting agenst misandrists. I'll be the frist to admit that there's a distinct possibility that he was edited out in future releases or WOD community Mandela'd him into existence. Free Cog posted:As far as I can tell, that's pretty much gone, thought I'd need to take another read to be certain. W5 kind of, sort of rolls with Forsaken's take on who becomes a werewolf now: anyone could be a werewolf for any reason. Genetics don't play a guaranteed part of it, and Kinfolk as depicted in previous editions no longer exist. I actually rember the Shattered nation preview actually mentioning whole lineage of mortal family supporting werewolves. So kinfolk is back in some capacity. Maybe not peurly genetics but something is passed down by those family members so they aren't whammy by the delirium. Nessus posted:The whatever-Fianna-are-now could be a brave paratrooper of the Special Air Services, protecting good British Unionists from the scourge of the Catholic. I bet 50 dollars that a future supplement will bring back the fenna as a Ireland based breakaway tribe of the gale strikers. Goa Tse-tung posted:speaking of Werewolf, If they don't have a option to have the player character postman back the garou nation the I'll riot. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 11:25
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm reminded of the Mekhet and their alternative weakness: Your reflection becomes alive and hates you. Shadow Mekhet are so loving cool. I'll be honest, I don't care for the tone of "if you like Requiem then you must hate Masquerade and vice-versa" that conversation here often takes with some sprinkling of moral judgement on top. Ultimately what determine if a game is problematic is what goes on at the table, so the burden is on the GM and players. I also love mixing these settings, I am currently running an Anarch Revolt campaign in Tuscany and you can be sure as hell the Mekhet are right there as a bloodline, also the Macellarius Ventrue. The Lancea Sanctum and Circle of the Crone both exist and compete with the Church of Caine. I am keeping the ambiguity of Vampire origins, partly inspired by the Requiem Ventrue book having the myth that they are descended from Venus/Aenas, with Hellenic immortals and some of their indocrinated childer claiming descent from various Olympians and their blessings/curses (e.g.: Orpheus was the first Toreador, transformed after his descent into the underworld; Troille is a daughter of Ares; Malkav was cursed by Apollo; etc). It can be argued that I am not really running Masquerade after some point, but honestly, every game is going to diverge from canon, the most important people in the world in your chronicle are not Lucita, Vykos and Beckett, it is your PCs. Play with what your muses are singing about.
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Apr 26, 2024 12:54
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I know I sure as hell rip the poo poo out of nWoD material for my games. My current one features the Gentry (mashed up with DA:Fae style Firstborn) and a bunch of bloodlines (the duChagne, the Carnival, a Malocusian-Morotrophian fusion bloodline, and a bunch of the weirder little gribblies from the nWoD.
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Apr 26, 2024 13:12
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Requiem and Masquerade are more tied together than, say, Changeling and Demon's iterations but in some ways Requiem does feel like Masquerade's final form. Damnation City is more than applicable to both and worth the get if you're going to run a game in either line.
Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 14:04
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Hell yeah! I am also using the Gentry and the nWOD take on Changelings for this chronicle (specifically the Mage arc in the 14th century, not much for them in this vampire-centric arc for now). Likewise Forsaken Werewolves and Shadow instead of the Apocalypse version of those.
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Apr 26, 2024 14:06
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I still remember how fun it was using the translation document to smash the camarilla and sabbat into my requiem game as over arching organizations that any covenant could belong to. Having the x/y/z axis of clan/covenant/sect made for some fun alliances and betrayals
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Apr 26, 2024 14:44
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:It just so happens that the pre gen is male and the write up say seek justice against "misandrists", which is to put simply not a good look. Free Cog posted:What book is this? There are no pregen characters in the core rulebook, even in the sample story. The character examples of Black Furies in there are an activist switching to illegal tactics, an EMT, a musician, and someone who guards territory. None of them have an explicit gender, and there's certainly no talk about "misandrists" in there. Is this guy from one of the premade stories? So is this real or not? Can anyone actually point us to the anti-misandry pregen character?
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Apr 26, 2024 18:28
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Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Well I distinctly reamber a menton of a male black fury pregen during the w5 corebook release and mention of him fighting agenst misandrists. Ferrinus posted:So is this real or not? Can anyone actually point us to the anti-misandry pregen character? I'm looking through my copy of the W5 core that I got in January right now, and here's the section for character ideas for the Black Furies. There are no pregens in the book, each Tribe gets a quick two page entry with a basic introduction, some archetypes, and an art spread:  I even checked the character creation example and the included story. No pregens there either, especially not someone like that. There's not even one of those "X wants to make a character for Y's game, so she..." type examples in the character creation section which I thought might have been something I missed. I even though that maybe there were pregens in the only Story I own, Deepest of Wounds, but no they just have an example Caern and there's no one like that in there either. If there were pregens that got edited out, especially one like that, I think we'd have heard about it by now. Even considering Werewolf 5 had like three big controversies, I feel like "the anti-misandry Black Fury" would have shown up in the greater community chatter along the line. Hell, this page reminds me of how the writer of the Advice for Considerate Play appendix got pretty miffed at seeing W5 have Musk and Tesla references since Onyx Path wasn't allowed to do that for their W20 material, and even more miffed at seeing the authors of the published W5 talk about doing so. I did forget about the Silver Crown entry in W5 saying the Albrecht line is around in some fashion and Shattered Nation confirms W5 has a version of Jonas Albrecht in it! I also didn't pick up on the Becoming Garou section saying that family trees of Garou often do have Garou in them. So it's not as Forsaken-y as my initial read had me to believe, but it's also not full on older editions of Werewolf either. Still, my bad on that:  
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Apr 26, 2024 21:00
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I would guess it’s in the Reclamation adventure? That seems to have pregens in it.
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Apr 26, 2024 21:22
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PantsOptional posted:I would guess it’s in the Reclamation adventure? That seems to have pregens in it. I went ahead and bought it, and no. There's a Black Fury in it, but not the anti-misandry one:  With that, I've looked through every currently published W5 thing that's not on preorder or part of the currently running season of the Play Renegade program, since I see there's one story in there that I wouldn't be able to look through without signing up for that and I'm not about to. So unless that character is in that story and the public won't see it until that season's adventures become buyable in the store, I'm going to tempt fate and say I don't think this character exists in these books. LATER EDIT: Unless there's something I missed in any of these books I've looked through (and if someone does find that I missed where this character was, please lemme know!) the only way I could see this kind of character being in a corebook is if it were in the cancelled and unpublished Hunters Entertainment version of the corebook but 1. as far as I know that's never seen the light of day and 2. I still think we would have heard about this character in general. You can't write something like that for something like W5, an inherently controversial book even before the issues with the art and Sambrano's statement came out, and no one just doesn't talk about it. Maybe it might have been brought up as a theoretical early in W5's announcement phase, maybe a passing idea Ericcson had? But out of all he said, I don't remember or can find any evidence that that might have been one of them, and boy did he say a lot. Those are the only ways I can imagine this character existing at this point, and none of that pans out either. Free Cog fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Apr 26, 2024 |
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Apr 26, 2024 22:44
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Those are even explicitly called out as intentionally being gender neutral with inclusive language so.Ghost Armor 1337 posted:So what would be the community reaction if a rouge editor decides to change the W5 Black Fury pregen gender from male to trans-male? Ghost Armor 1337 posted:Yeah apparently parawolf wants to shift the tribes proity from justice for woman to justice In general. Mind coming back here and explaining yourself buddy?
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Apr 26, 2024 22:56
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I guess it exists in the rumour mill of people who want to hate on 5th edition for existing. Come on, there's enough in the games to criticise without making stuff up.
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Apr 26, 2024 23:18
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Kurieg posted:Those are even explicitly called out as intentionally being gender neutral with inclusive language so. Well I definitely did hear mentions of a male black fury during release and I did remember seeing mention of him being anti misandrist. I'm welling to admit that I cited bad sources and I'm sorry for the confusion it caused. Moving on... PantsOptional posted:I would guess it’s in the Reclamation adventure? That seems to have pregens in it. The adventure is actually tonally at odds to the sourcebook. All the pregens don't really have any problems with being a garou (the Black fury pregen pretty much states that she's proud of being garou because she has the strength to fix problems and the adventure didn't call her out for that). The local elders are portrayed as pretty reasonable for the situation they in and a major story beat is the rival packs puting aside they differences to reclame the cearn that is pretty much stated to become a major regional hub for the garou to flock to.
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Apr 27, 2024 01:36
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I'm pretty deep into the Choice of Games Werewolf adventure and it's really good so far. Turns out there's some neat kernels you could build on in Woof 5 with rebuilding the Garou Nation that feel, at best, touched on in a very scattershot method in the book itself.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:05
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Dawgstar posted:I'm pretty deep into the Choice of Games Werewolf adventure and it's really good so far. Turns out there's some neat kernels you could build on in Woof 5 with rebuilding the Garou Nation that feel, at best, touched on in a very scattershot method in the book itself. Also appenly I heard that the game is doubling down on the Cult of Fenris being nazis since apparently one of they evil plan on bunning down a building full of punk protesters. Like could you give me rationale for that? I mean there's fighting for gaia at the total expense of humanity then there's this. Ghost Armor 1337 fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Apr 27, 2024 |
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Apr 27, 2024 05:00
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That sounds like a Wayward more than anything.
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Apr 27, 2024 06:59
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