Kchama posted:The whole 'Dark Gods from another universe and also the mysterious data-being that can only manifest in select ways and don't give a poo poo about the laws of physics' deal still reminds me a lot of the Festum from Fafnir, who can come and attack more directly but it's also their only way of interacting with the universe at first - their physical forms are the result of the people's perception who first saw them, as they read minds effortlessly. And they can do such things as create a black hole-like wormhole in space and time to teleport around and also just plain make people stop existing. They can connect to anyone's minds who answers their psychic question "Are you there?", which most people do without even realizing it. See, it's interesting, because that's what my brain basically tells me the 'dark gods' are, that idea of something/s that can't quite figure out our universe and are mostly destructive without intention. This is basically what Chapter 47 will state, I think, and similar to what Holden basically describes as an immune response a few chapters ago. But then, I don't know how much that links to Tiamat's Wrath stuff with the game theory bit and the idea that they've been trying to tit-or-tat us, or even this novel where they're loving with ionic bonds and getting confused. It could be that my brain is trying to stitch together something that feels like it makes more sense. There's a part of me that really struggles with things like 'they can disrupt the speed of light', 'they can turn off consciousness', 'they can gently caress with ionic bonds', 'they're viewing our universe from the outside and rattling our windows' and 'they get confused when a ship goes through a gate and they think their physics-busting powers don't work on monkeys.' Before the last novel came out, I remember a theory where it was basically that the Builders had ascended to being 'above' our material reality/substrate whereas the Dark Gods were beings who were 'below' the substrate. The idea was somewhat similar, that the Builder tech is disruptive to them in ways that maybe the Builders could never conceive or were so far removed from that they didn't really care. I think the idea was some kind of quantum-scale lifeform or something? But when we're getting into "they're incomprehensible aliens from another incomprehensible universe" and/or "the dark gods are the other universe", I feel the story is getting so abstruse that it's hard remain engaged with it. To such an extent that, like, "the dark gods are the reality-breaking psychic remnants of all the dead species the Builders wiped out, and they want to be put to rest but can't destroy the infrastructure that houses them" feels like it'd make more sense, be more palatable, and fit with ideas the series raised.
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Apr 26, 2024 15:05
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:To such an extent that, like, "the dark gods are the reality-breaking psychic remnants of all the dead species the Builders wiped out, and they want to be put to rest but can't destroy the infrastructure that houses them" feels like it'd make more sense, be more palatable, and fit with ideas the series raised. This was my theory years and years ago about what was happening with the Goths; PriorMarcus posted:Does anyone have any theories on the goths?
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Apr 26, 2024 16:10
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PriorMarcus posted:This was my theory years and years ago about what was happening with the Goths; That is actually a much better idea of what I was vaguely thinking about, haha. It also indicates something that I think is a bad misfire in the ending of Falls which is that the last chapter is Naomi and Jim when it feels like it should be Miller and Holden.
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Apr 27, 2024 04:22
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I hope I'm not just making GBS threads up this thread, but I am still thoroughly lost by what this story is now supposed to be about...? Duarte is an evil dictator who is also Jesus - and not in the Gabriel Garcia Marquez delusional way. The inhuman light aliens are now somehow the first humans in the garden of Eden. We have set up a conflict so high stakes and so absurd - extradimensional aliens will destroy the laws of physics! - that there is no possible way that any human agency can resolve this conflict. Like, yeah, these novels have always been pulpy space adventures, but these plot devices seem to have metastasized.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:34
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Leviathan Falls, Chapters 44 - 47 "What the hell is this?" "This is the instrumentality which your father has initiated." Chapter Forty-Four: Teresa So, having just come across Duarte and Teresa saying, "Daddy?" we, of course, hop back to before then. Teresa has been aware that Holden is dying ever since they entered the station. She reminds him of her father. Interesting, all the stuff Holden thinks he was saying silently to Miller, he's been actually muttering to himself and it's freaking Teresa out. Holden has been veering between that and his normal self, and that's unsettling, too. Tanaka takes Teresa aside and basically says, look, Holden is compromised and he's losing functioning real fast: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“I’m not asking for your judgment, I’m informing you of mine,” Tanaka said. “At this point, I believe Holden may still be useful in finding and recovering the high consul, so I’m willing to take the risk associated with his condition. But I need you to understand that this will not always be the case.” It's about here where Holden opens his visor, then Teresa, and then Tanaka. We hop forward to "Daddy?" Duarte smiles at her and tells her everything is all right and that he dreamed too small and so on. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“This is why it will work. The meat, the matter, the rude clay of us. It’s hard to kill. The ones who came before were brilliant, but they were fragile. Genius made of tissue paper, and the chaos blew them apart. We can be the best of both now. . .” Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“High Consul Duarte. My name is Colonel Aliana Tanaka. I have been given Omega status by Admiral Trejo and assigned the task of finding and recovering you.” Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“We were doomed as soon as the gates appeared,” he said, but to her, not Tanaka. “If no one had taken responsibility, we would have bumbled along until the other ones came and killed us all. I saw that, and I did what I had to do. It was never for me. The empire was only a tool. It was a way to coordinate. To prepare for the war that was coming. The war in heaven.” Holden pulls Teresa away from Duarte. He likens him to Julie on Eros -- there's no way to tell now where Duarte and the ring station begin and end. Tanaka tells Teresa to get him to stop. Duarte basically says, hey, you can talk to me directly. He says that Tanaka was with him from the beginning and this is the extension of his beliefs, making humanity safe and whole and unified. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:“Sir,” Tanaka said, “we can do this without mindfucking everyone. We can fight this war and still be human beings.” In a rage, Teresa slams into the black web holding Duarte and tries to rip him out of it. Duarte freaks out. Holden implores her not to damage the station. Duarte... Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:A force grabbed her like a vast, invisible hand and pulled her away. A million tiny, unreal needles bore into her flesh and began to rip her apart. Oh, she thought, my father’s going to kill me. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 44 posted:And then, the pain eased. Jim was beside her, and for a moment someone else was too, but she couldn’t see him. The glimmer in Jim’s eyes was brighter, and his skin had gone waxy with an eerie opalescence under it. His teeth were bared in raw, animal effort. It was coolest when it was freaky bio-horror space Lego. Duarte seemingly stops trying to vaporize Teresa. Because he starts summoning in a horde of sentinel robots... Chapter Forty-Five: Naomi Naomi is coordinating the battle outside the station. It's kinda weird that despite the swarming numbers of Duarte's super-coordinated fleet that annihilated the strongest ship Naomi had in their opening salvo, she's only being "slowly dismantled." Leviathan Falls, Chapter 45 posted:She imagined whole stations filled with silent bodies working in perfect coordination, the need for verbal communication replaced by the direct influence of brain on brain. A single hand with billions of fingers. If that was what humanity was now, there would never be another conversation, another misunderstanding or joke or lovely pop song. She tried to imagine what it would be like for a baby born into a world like that, not as an individual but an appendage that had never known itself as anything else. The fight continues. Naomi damns a Captain Melero to death. Alex shoots his railgun. It's a very bland battle, and I think part of that is because the Rocinante and the Falcon should be in pieces. Like, you'd think Duarte would be gunning for them hard, right? Or trying to use them as bargaining chips against Jim in the station? It's very reminiscent of the climax of the first novel where Miller has a great ending with Julie, while Holden just kind of bickers with a nameless redshirt because he needs something to do. Naomi calls up Elvi. Elvi's like, hey, the isolation chamber keeps Duarte's Instrumentality out. In the middle of a heated battle, Elvi and Naomi discuss sending the isolation chamber plans out via torpedo to Sol, Auberon, and Bara Goan. Laconia is not mentioned. So, I guess they're both fine with damning the population of the biggest colony (remember, there was an extensive project to resettle people on Laconia and turn it into the new capital world) to being Duarte's slaves because, uh, Duarte came from there, I guess? Because the Coreys aren't good at battle tactics, Naomi's fleet is being pulled away from the ring station for unclear reasons when you think you'd just hold position and overlap your point defences as best you can and hope for the best. Not that it matters, because the Whirlwind drops through the Laconia gate, an everyone fires upon it and accomplishes nothing. Then something happens. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 45 posted:The shout, when it came, literally defied description. It was an overpowering taste of mint or a vibrant purple or the shuddering sense of an orgasm without the pleasure. Her mind skipped and jumped, trying to make sense of something it had no capacity to understand, matching the signal to one sensation and then another and then another until she found herself on the float above her crash couch with no idea how much time had passed. And Naomi cries out as she realizes the Dark Gods are pushing through into reality, and coming straight for her. Chapter Forty-Six: Tanaka Back to Holden telling Teresa not to damage the station. Tanaka sees Holden save Teresa from Duarte's psychic dismemberment. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Jesus, you’re disappointed? You’re disappointed you didn’t just see that girl killed? a man’s voice said. What is wrong with you? How do you live with yourself? Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:The overwhelming sense, unspoken but clear, was pity. This was why she’s so broken. This is why she hurts people. This is why she only fucks men she can dominate, because she’s always so frightened. Look at all the things that were wrong with her. Like, I get it. Everyone magpies other works. Everyone takes inspiration. But I find it confusing when it feels this obvious an inspiration, yet it misses the point. In Evangelion, yes, it is awful to have the world sifting through your most private thoughts and neuroses -- but in Instrumentality (the TV version, at least) everyone comes out the other side whole and happy. It's basically an extremely intense, violating collective therapy session that creates a mental utopia. Meanwhile, in the Expanse, we're told it's an awful violation but all we keep seeing if people going like, hey, maybe don't be such a psycho. Tanaka tells the voices that she'll blow her brains out if they don't leave her alone. Tanaka decides her mission is impossible -- not just because Duarte is out of his mind, but she reckons Laconia doesn't exist anymore. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Which meant her Omega status was meaningless. She had better than it. She had freedom. She had nothing to stop her from doing whatever she saw fit except whoever had the balls to try and stop her. Holden shouts that Duarte isn't dead. The sentinels leap for her, but Holden is able to make them stop. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:The sentinels twitched, jumping toward her and then falling back. Tools with two masters, bouncing between conflicting commands. Her last battle, and she was locking shields with James loving Holden. Tanaka begins punching the poo poo out of Duarte, and he flails at her. She punches through her ribs and crushes his heart -- and this is what broke the hive mind. There's an injury that Tanaka sustains that is a bit... uh, interesting in light of the rape metaphors so far. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:Something pressed into her belly, squirming its way into her like a snake. Anyway, Tanaka is dying. Holden and Teresa are alive, staring at her. The sentinels are all still. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 46 posted:She wished she had a sidearm, so she could have put a round through both of them and watched them bleed out with her. She reached out her arm, index finger pointing forward, thumb raised, and sighted in on Holden’s face. Exeunt Tanaka. Chapter Forty-Seven: Jim Duarte is dead. Tanaka is dead. Miller confirms it. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller nodded. “Yeah, we’re the only ones here now. Which is good. I was switching those goons off a hundred times a second, and he kept setting them back on ‘murder everything.’” Holden wonders how they're going to get out. Miller says it's possible, but there's no ship left to exit on. Holden wonders why. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller tilted his head like he was hearing an unfamiliar noise. “You’re forgetting what got us here. All this is a complication on the real problem. When Colonel Friendly aced Duarte, she took his finger out of the dike. We’re safe in here. This place has already taken the worst the bad guys could dish out and stayed solid. But everyone else out there?” He shook his head. Holden wants to know how to stop them. Miller says he can take Duarte's place. Holden tells Teresa he'll take care of her, but he has to do something right now. He climbs into the space Duarte was in and lets the threads grab him. Holden isn't sure what to do, but Miller says the station wants to do what it is built to do, he just has to let it happen. Holden's awareness spreads out. Miller says that he's the Julie to the ring station's Eros. Holden spies the "enemy" about to devour Naomi, and he pushes it back. Still, it tries to get to Naomi like a fish swimming against a heavy current. Miller advises Holden to think bigger, and he does. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:He pushed back, trying to bring the nature of the ring space back to true, but the pressure working against him was implacable. It was omnipresent, and anyplace he resisted it, it flowed around him. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Like a judo master, the ring station took the near-infinite power of an entire universe trying to crush it and pivoted, turning its strength against it. The other, older universe just outside the sphere of rings moved past him, and he could feel the pain he caused it. He could feel its hatred. The wound in its flesh that he was. Miller 2.0 says: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:This structure is stealing energy from another place like a turbine slows down the wind just a little. And the things from the other place will never stop hating us for it. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:“Nothing until now. See, now we’ve got a few billion murder-primates we can slot in where the airy-fairy angels of light used to be. I’m going to give us a better chance at that point.” Holden says he didn't go through all this just to be Duarte. Holden experiences a brief bit of awe, however, at thought of completing Duarte's work and uniting humanity as one. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 47 posted:Miller nodded like he was agreeing with something. Which maybe he was. “Nerving yourself up to kiss your big crush for the first time? Or getting pissed off because the apartment one over has a nicer view than yours? Playing with your grandbabies, or drinking beer with the assholes from work because going back to an empty house is too depressing? All the grimy, grubby bullshit that comes with being locked in your own head for a lifetime. That’s the sacrifice. That’s what you give up to get a place among the stars.” "It's not worth it." Holden says the builders shut the rings down but kept the station, hoping they could come back to it. Holden appears in the Rocinante's machine shop and talks to Amos. Holden tells him to talk to Naomi and get everyone to bail out of the ring space ASAP and stay there, permanently. Amos, being Amos, takes it all in stride. Amos asks Holden if he wants to talk to Naomi, and Holden says, no, we've already said everything we needed to say. Fantastic relationship they had. Holden tells Amos that Teresa is on her way, then returns his awareness to his body, and tells Teresa to run for it.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:39
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I hope I'm not just making GBS threads up this thread, but I am still thoroughly lost by what this story is now supposed to be about...? No, I think you're on the right track. I think Jeff VanderMeer made the point once that the ending of your SF/F novel must have some relation to the beginning of it. I'm not sure the ending of Leviathan Falls has much relevance to the beginning of the series whatsoever. The Expanse has always been a series about people. Finding the missing girl like a noir story, finding the missing kid, bringing people together in a scary place, colonist disputes, a jilted lover going on a rampage, etc. It might not always do it well, but I think this is what the series was basically about. The sci-fi elements were plot devices to put the characters in stressful situations: Eros riots, alien super soldiers, a ticking clock until extinction, colonist disputes and natural disasters. This is what I think people mean when they say the series isn't about the Romans, the Goths, the metaplot mysteries... But Leviathan Falls isn't really about people at all. Duarte and the Romans and the Goths have basically pushed everything out of the narrative. We spend half the novel on Teresa and her importance to Duarte, only for it to be proof that he's beyond saving. It feels like a bunch of plot devices snatched from other works and arranged together to just finish out the series. Instrumentality, the Illusive Man at the end of Mass Effect 3, Stargate, whatever. None of it feels like The Expanse, the gritty story about average joes trying to do the right thing. Like, Holden's developed superpowers and he's just been crucified for our sins -- who the gently caress thought that was ever going to happen? PriorMarcus' post outlines, I think, a version of the ending that fits more with VanderMeer's argument. Those bits have been running through the series from the beginning. I have trouble thinking anyone was hanging on the edge of their seat for this ending. Teresa hangs around on the Rocinante, then rolls snake eyes on her Persuasion skill check. Holden is a depressed lug who doses himself up on the protomeme because the player was getting bored. Tanaka is a weirdo who kills Duarte than dies. So, the climax of this series is a weird showdown in a place that hasn't really been relevant since the third novel (which is fine) where the reader's understanding of it seems to be inversely correlated to how much attention they've paid throughout the series, where it all depends on weird esoterica about light aliens and a lashing out alternate universe cosmic mind and a messiah who seems like he can actually do as he says but it's bad because humanity won't have lovely pop songs and conversations anymore even though it sure seems like people are maintaining their identities given they keep talking to Tanaka and judging her and whenever Duarte's voice shows up it's on a whole different level.
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Apr 28, 2024 03:59
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I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small.
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Apr 28, 2024 04:48
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General Battuta posted:I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small. I think there's a glimmer of something interesting in it. The stuff about murder-primates, the big act of humanity within this chapel of the angels being the act of murder... But, at the very least, I think it would have to be Holden doing it. It could even echo how he was kicked out of the navy for missing a punch at his commanding officer or something. But as it is, it's just empty. It gives me the feeling that Tanaka's only reason for inclusion was to prevent Holden from getting his hands dirty. Having the bad guy get killed by someone who was only really introduced in the final novel robs it of a lot of impact, I think. It doesn't help that Tanaka goes out from this novel about as angry and crazy as she entered it. Tanaka's 'hell yeah, off the leash, let's get real weird with it' moment doesn't do much for me because, well, she's been doing that the whole novel.
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Apr 28, 2024 05:41
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I think, going back to my idea of the Goth's being the gestalt intelligence of the previous protomolecule, making Duarte be possessed by them, rather than the Roman's, would sort out a lot of the ending. His goal, instead of instrumentality, could be to shut down all the gates for good, which they weren't able to do last time as they didn't have access to the substrate. This is bad because no matter what it condems millions to death in colonies that still aren't entirely self reliant and... oh.
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Apr 28, 2024 10:05
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I always was kind of reminded of Doom when it came to Holden's backstory, because it's literally the backstory for the Doom Guy and the explanation for why he's stuck on a backwater hellhole like Phobos - his commanding officer ordered him to fire on civilians and he beat the hell out of him instead.
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Apr 28, 2024 12:09
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General Battuta posted:I hate Tanaka's final scene (and for that matter Duarte's) so much. It's pathetic. This is what you do with these characters? This is the absolute climax of the entire Laconia plot thread and arguably your whole series? It's so...grimy and ugly and small. I mean, I can't justify Tanaka going out like the South Park kids' Fingerbang band, but Duarte the dictator dying in a grimy, ugly, and small way is pretty on par for the brand Think of Hitler shooting himself or Stalin dying in his own piss. Duarte trying to murder his own daughter would seem to come down pretty heavily on the Laconian ideals being complete bullshit and just being another space dictator, but I've bitched about the incoherence of that plotline enough without mocking the shoehorned Jesus allegory. Milkfred E. Moore posted:So, the climax of this series is a weird showdown in a place that hasn't really been relevant since the third novel (which is fine) where the reader's understanding of it seems to be inversely correlated to how much attention they've paid throughout the series, where it all depends on weird esoterica about light aliens and a lashing out alternate universe cosmic mind and a messiah who seems like he can actually do as he says but it's bad because humanity won't have lovely pop songs and conversations anymore even though it sure seems like people are maintaining their identities given they keep talking to Tanaka and judging her and whenever Duarte's voice shows up it's on a whole different level. I thought Duarte was able to mind control the battleships' crews to attack Naomi's fleet? From what you're describing here it sounds like less of a therapy session and more like Duarte is going to be the immortal dictator. Even if he doesn't mind control people he can still Avada Kedavra them to death. It also makes Holden's decision not to take up the real ultimate power more meaningful. Yeah, it's just a lovely version of the One Ring, but still, I take what I can get here.
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Apr 28, 2024 12:44
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I thought Duarte was able to mind control the battleships' crews to attack Naomi's fleet? From what you're describing here it sounds like less of a therapy session and more like Duarte is going to be the immortal dictator. Even if he doesn't mind control people he can still Avada Kedavra them to death. I don't think it's really clear. The people telling us Duarte is mind-controlling the ships to come attack them are also, coincidentally, the people opposed to Duarte. Duarte could be an immortal dictator of a mindless horde, or he could be more of a godhead directing a collective will. It's a fine distinction, sure, but I feel it is one. Similar to Instrumentality, Duarte seemingly has to talk people into "letting go" of their individuality and joining the collective. But if Duarte is the sole voice, the ultimate dictator, then who are the people showing up in Tanaka and Teresa's minds even now, when it seems like Duarte has sublimated everyone outside the ring space? The Whirlwind's captain snapping out of it could be regaining her individuality, or coming out of a fugue state, like when you're intensely working on something and realize six hours have passed, or waking up from a dream. That said, I use 'therapy session' as a bit of a shorthand more to illustrate how the intrusive psychic thoughts seem to be more about sharing empathy or attempting to recognize flaws, with Duarte's 'you will be assimilated' stuff being very different and very obvious because it's more like a command hallucination: give up, just let go, don't fight, etc.
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Apr 28, 2024 13:02
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I'm just gonna say thatTanaka posted:“Bang, motherfucker,” she said. The book has not earned the right to call back to Cowboy Bebop jesus
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Apr 28, 2024 14:14
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Strategic Tea posted:I'm just gonna say that It's such a stupid, grating last line from Tanaka. I can't believe we've fell this far. The first books were genuinely good, and this has moments of that still present but then... Tanaka posted:"Bang, motherfucker," she said.
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Apr 28, 2024 15:36
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Leviathan Falls, Chapters 48 - Epilogue The Earther that shouted I at the Heart of the World, or, Take Care of Yourselves Chapter Forty-Eight: Alex Naomi is sending a message: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 48 posted:“. . . evacuate immediately. Assume whatever system you are entering is where you will be from now on. Expect and assume no further contact after your transit, and do not reenter the ring space once you’ve left. This is not a joke. This is not a drill. Message repeats.” Naomi asks Elvi where the Falcon is headed. Elvi says Sol. Not Laconia, as the Whirlwind is headed that way, and Elvi suspects that even if Admiral Trejo honors the amnesty, others on Laconia might have her on an enemies list. "I'm breaking up some families," she says, "but I'm saving some lives." Goddamn. Yeah, where are these ships going if there's no disagreement? I'm imagining mutinies and murders and bedlam. Naomi says she's headed for Sol, too. Alex says that, actually, he'd really like to go be with Kit and his family in Nieuwestad as there's nothing for him in Sol. Naomi says it's okay because, if it was Filip, she'd be going to him, too. Naomi, you didn't even give a poo poo when you killed him in Babylon's Ashes, thirty years to acknowledge him like this is insane. Naomi never even thought about him in the previous two books! So, Naomi asks Elvi if she and Amos and Teresa and Muskrat can hitch a ride on the Falcon. Naomi and Amos and Alex, for all of their found family energy, read a little like people who are tired of each other. "Sure, whatever," Amos says. Alex, for a second, thinks what he might be doing is wrong, but is reassured by thinking about Kit. The 'is Amos Amos?' plotline is apparently closed off by Naomi and Alex deciding that he hasn't really changed much. Alex heads up to the ops deck to pilot the Rocinante out of the ring space. The Rocinante heads out. Naomi's model prevents any ship from going dutchman, and Alex thinks it would've worked pretty well. Alex imagines that the Rocinante will be the biggest gun around Nieuwestad. He imagines carrying survey teams throughout the system, maybe do some prospecting and engineering work with Kit and his wife. He imagines being Grandpa Alex. It is deeply, deeply sad. None of this will be happening for reasons we'll soon see. As the Rocinante gets toward the gate, an alarm sounds concerning a misfeed in the fuel supply to the reactor. "Come on," Alex tells the old corvette-class frigate, "We can do this. Just a little further down the trail now." I know at least one person thought this chapter feels like the Rocinante explodes before reaching the gate. I can certainly see how they got that impression. It's a very weird, very sad ending for Alex. Chapter Forty-Nine: Naomi and Jim Meanwhile, Holden is dying. The Rocinante is heading away from the ring station, while Teresa is on her way back to the Falcon. Holden's practically omniscient at this point, although he stops himself from learning about his friends. Miller 2.0 and Holden reminiscence about Eros. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“That was the first time I told Naomi that I loved her,” Holden said. “She handed me my rear end on a plate.” And we, in an Expanse first, swap to Naomi mid-chapter. As some of you may have noticed, the final chapter -- barring an epilogue -- is Naomi and Jim. It feels like a bit of a miscalculation. Like, surely the last chapter of this series should be "Holden and Miller." Like how it began. The "Naomi and Jim" romance has never been key to this series, and it just doesn't feel right to be the final chapter. Lancelot and Guinevere, they are not. Like PriorMarcus said, Holden and Miller has some resonance. An Earther and a Belter bringing pause to the dark gods. Teresa is pissed that the Rocinante left without her. Naomi says that Alex took it. Teresa launches herself at Amos and they hug awkwardly. Cara and Xan show up to join the group hug. Naomi thinks it looks beautiful. The evacuation is going well and, soon, the Falcon gets moving. Back to Holden, watching the last ships leaving. The dark gods are still trying to breach the ring space, trying to push through via the ring gates. It's difficult, but Holden asks Miller 2.0 to help, and it does. Which feels a little weird because they're sort of the same being but, hey, whatever. They get the dark gods to back off, but Holden knows he isn't strong enough to stop them again. The Rocinante gets through the Nieuwestad gate. The only ship left is the Falcon. And Miller lays it all out: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“Kind of funny,” Miller said. “You being here to do this.” Imagine what'd happen if, overnight, someone disabled every combustion engine on Earth. Made gasoline stop working. Hell, just sank every container ship... Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“I mean, don’t get me wrong. My analysis of the situation is a lot like yours. But you got to see there’s an irony in it. All the poo poo you gave me about giving people all the information and trusting them to do the right thing? Most of these fuckers aren’t gonna know what happened. This decision you’re making for the whole human race.” The Falcon makes it through the gate. Holden says: Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“I absolutely believe that people are more good on balance than bad,” he said. “All the wars and all of the cruelty and all of the violence. I’m not looking away from any of that, and I still think there’s something beautiful about being what we are. History is soaked in blood. The future probably will be too. But for every atrocity, there’s a thousand small kindnesses that no one noticed. A hundred people who spent their lives loving and caring for each other. A few moments of real grace. Maybe it’s only a little more good than bad in us, but . . .” Either way, the end comes. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“And yet,” Miller said, “we’re about to consign millions of people to slow deaths. That’s just the truth. Are you sure this thing you’re about to do is the right one?” (And Miller 2.0 is, of course, wrong. It'll be much more than millions.) Back to Naomi. The Sol gate fades and falls out of its orbit, heading straight for the sun. Naomi sits in the Falcon's galley and watches it go. Everyone in Sol wants to know what the gently caress is happening, and Naomi ignores all their messages. Amos comes in to check on her and says that Teresa is "hosed up pretty good" as a consequence of watching Tanaka rip her father to bits, but she's making friends with Sparkles and Little Man, so, who's to say if it's good or bad? Amos figures people will strip-mine the ring before it hits the sun. Naomi thinks someone might tug it into a stable orbit. Amos asks her what she thinks about everything that's happened. Naomi reflects that she's able to live without Jim, and Alex, and her ship. Leviathan Falls, Chapter 49 posted:“I think we got lucky. I think we were one little system in a vast, unreachable universe that was always on the edge of destroying itself, and now we have thirteen hundred chances to figure out how to live with each other. How to be gentle with each other. How to get it right. It’s better odds than we had.” Epilogue: The Linguist Leviathan Falls, Epilogue posted:Marrel expected reintegration to hurt, but it didn’t. It didn’t feel like anything. He didn’t even have the grogginess of waking from sleep, which—thinking on it—shouldn’t have been surprising, as he hadn’t fallen asleep. Somehow, he was surprised all the same. The destination is, of course, Earth. It is, in Marrel's thoughts, like walking into a tomb. "The ancestral home of all the Thirty Worlds" has "fewer structures around its system than any contact before." So, Earth fell, and fell hard. That's very concerning given that Sol should've been the system best set to ride out the Collapse. Note that there's no mention of Mars whatsoever. Marrel's diplomatic team remains behind on the Musafir as he goes for a walk on the grass of earth, making for an "ancient city." He is greeted by a group carrying weapons. "Obvious weapons", but that is all we get -- are they fancy laser guns, firearms, swords, big clubs? Leviathan Falls, Epilogue posted:Marrel wasn’t sure if they were an honor guard waiting for him to approach, or a strike team waiting to charge him and try to take the ship. He fumbled with the target pointer in his hand. If need be, the ship could turn the field in front of him into a molten lake. He prayed that wouldn’t be the case. Leviathan Falls, Epilogue posted:The figure was also broad, and thick limbed, with ebony skin and a wide, hairless head. As it approached, the color of its skin began to look less like a natural color and more like an artificial pigment. In ancient Chinese, Marrel introduces himself as Marrel Imvic of the Dobridomov system. He says he's there to establish communication protocols to establish diplomacy. The man who is Amos asks him if he knows English, or Belter. Marrel reflects that Belter has been a dead language for a thousand years. The man who is Amos says that, after a rough millennium, Earth is starting to get their poo poo together. Leviathan Falls, Epilogue posted:“Are you a leader of these people?” Marrel asked. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 12:58
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Here we are, at the end of this insane endeavor. Let's get to it. What's the Point of an Ending? As much as I think the Expanse ending is very whelming, I also think it's absolutely terrible. Gates fall, everyone dies. After nine books, that is the image one takes away from this series. Everyone tried so hard, and got so far, and in the end, Jim Holden decided that it was better for billions to die as human than risk being transformed into something different. I'm not saying Duarte's plan is a good one, but surely one has to account for all of those memories of humanity preserved in some form versus wiping everything out. Then again, a fun bit of irony. Both Mass Effect 3 and Neon Genesis Evangelion had such ideas playing into their ending, preservation of life in a very different form, and given Franck's noted disgust at Mass Effect 3's ending... Ty Franck, 2017 posted:"The first two and a half games promised so much and set up such a fantastic universe, and then the end of the third one, it just... It made everything that had come before irrelevant. It was just a loving terrible ending," Franck said. "It really felt like there was a fantastic ending that I had been promised, and then when I got to it... You know what? The ending of Mass Effect for me was like the ending of Lost, where [you] became aware that they really didn't know where they were going the whole time and they'd kind of just been making things up. The cowardice of it is that the Coreys know this. They know this is a bad ending. In any other story, it wouldn't be far from the worst possible ending. So, they hit the reader with a not even nine hundred words long epilogue to go, hey, humanity re-invented faster than light travel, it's fine, and there's Amos, don't you like Amos? It's like they're dangling keys in front of the reader's face. Jingle-jangle, please ignore the fact that everyone else died knowing they were responsible for the deaths of billions. The Expanse was always a character-focused story. It was a story about Holden's crush on Naomi and his upset that one of his dads said a bad word. It was a story about Alex's struggle between being a pilot and a family man. It was a story about how big and sexy Bobbie was. It was a story about Amos' struggle between disconnection and connection. It was a story about Naomi's romantic past. It was a story about Detective Miller's one last job. It was a story about Tanaka's abusive past turning her into an abusive adult. It was a story about Clarissa's search for redemption. It was a story about Fred, and Prax, and Drummer, and Avasarala, and Duarte, and Singh -- all of these people trying to do what they thought was right for their corner of the expanse. It's a story where Fred and Avasarala and perhaps even Duarte and Singh and Tanaka were the lucky ones. After all, let's see how the beloved crew of the Rocinante fared after leaving the ring space behind. The Case of Naomi Nagata Belters went extinct, so, we're not off to a good start. As the epilogue states, their language has been "dead for a thousand years." This isn't too surprising, given that presumably any kind of space-based infrastructure collapsed quickly, and then people regressed to planets, and then the planets that were actually suitable for human life. As the Musafir went straight to Earth with no mention of Mars, it seems like Mars collapsed, too. But let's focus on the Belters. They're gone. Marco Inaros was right. Which means Naomi had a hell of a time. Naomi can't live on standard gravity. Naomi gets to live through the Gate Age Collapse knowing that her not-quite-husband caused it. Did she tell anyone? Did she live silently with that burden? Did she swear Amos and Elvi and Fayez and Teresa to secrecy? As civilization regressed to planetary bodies, just what did Naomi Nagata do, and how did she cope? Either way, it is unlikely that she lived for very long during the end of the expanse. Her life was a long chain of tragedy and failure. Her first boyfriend killed millions, she thought she called her son and this was never corrected, she failed to break Laconia, and her attempt at creating a New Transport Union was killed by her second boyfriend, along with a higher body count than Inaros ever had. Here lies Admiral Naomi Nagata. She never scored. The Case of Alex Kamal Alex almost certainly died in the post-Gate collapse. See, Nieuwestad is a new colony (less than ten years old) and has a population of 500,000. It is a sealed dome city as the biosphere is not "toxic but could be irritating." This would seemingly put it in the colonies that "aren't baked yet", as Miller 2.0 puts it, and relies on trade and people coming from off-world to establish it. As Nieuwestad is not mentioned in the epilogue, either, I think it's a reasonable assumption that it is one of the many worlds that collapsed. So, there goes Alex and Kit and everyone else. Hopefully, Alex didn't die fighting over the last can of dog food. The Case of Teresa Duarte I can't imagine there being any worse place for Teresa to be than Sol following the death of Consul Winston Duarte, the man who tried to mind-gently caress the collective soul of humanity. Somehow, I don't think a fifteen year-old girl, the scion of Laconia, the nation that arguably began this whole mess, had a very good time. Remember, the Laconian siege meant that Sol had to be reconquered by Trejo personally. She almost certainly outlived Muskrat, too. Colonel Tanaka ripped her father apart and now she's getting thrust into a massive-scale collapse. Poor kid. Ironically, Laconia is probably the one colony that you could reasonably assume to have survived. Not only had they done so for thirty years of isolation previously, while building up a massive fleet and infrastructure, the system itself appears to be completely self-sufficient. Naomi's months-long campaign never brought it to any kind of collapse, on the brink or otherwise. Even if times got hard, the Laconian regime is also probably the one most likely to crackdown and ensure its own survival at the cost of others -- oops! And as we saw with Amos, despite Miller's warning that everything was powered by the ring station, it seems like certain elements of Builder tech can still function, which Laconia has in spades. And if they can still create 'strange' humans... Speaking of Laconia, Elvi and Fayez went to Sol, too. Who knows what happened to them. Fayez could barely cope with the angst of experimenting on two not-children -- how do you think he took being party to the apocalypse? "We're shooting past crimes against humanity now," Fayez had said. "But I still know it could be even worse." Did you, Fayez, really? The Case of Amos Burton And last but not least -- Amos. Amos' existence in the epilogue of pure fan service. Grade-A+ Copium. He's the last man standing, just like he said in Caliban's War, and in Cibola Burn, and Nemesis Games, and Babylon's Ashes! Except, how can he be the last man standing? Surely Amos' incredible regeneration wasn't powered by his baseline physiology, surely it had something to do with the ring station's universe-crushing power transmission, as Miller basically directly states? At the time of the Musafir's arrival, Amos has ebony skin, just like his gunshot wound earlier in the novel, meaning that every inch of his body has been injured and regenerated over the years... The ending only works if it's comprehensive. You can't throw away all the benefits of the protomolecule-based civilization while getting to keep the three who were rebuilt by it and intimately connected to it. The fact that Amos, of all people, seems to have been acting as humanity's guide and shepherd is a bad joke. The ending would be much more powerful if it was Marrel exploring the ruins of Earth. Have him come across a weird life-like statue of a big, bald man with an amiable smile. That, at least, would share something with the (original, better) ending of the series circa Abaddon's Gate -- that humanity has left the cradle behind, and perhaps become better for it. Where what Marrel assumes is a statue of a king or President is just literally the last man standing, a last laugh kinda joke. An ending where the characters die alone and forgotten, having failed at everything they set out to do, being just the stepping stone in something greater, would be extremely difficult to pull off in a story that'd been set out to do something like that from the beginning. It's virtually impossible to do when you've given us nine books of character-focused drama that has, time and time again, put the focus on their neuroses and concerns and not plot and/or history, where these characters have managed to jink and junk anything fate throws at them. 'Milkfred, it's about the journey, not the destination' -- wrong. The destination is the most important part of the story. It's why stories end, and it's entirely possible to gently caress endings up. And this one was. 'This how it all ends. One of many possible endings.' Thing is, I think the Coreys knew as well as I did that once the gates have been opened and introduced, the series can only end with them being removed. It's such a powerful image and symbol that it demands inclusion. Much like Mass Effect, once the gates have been revealed to be a poisoned chalice, the heroes can't allow the world or themselves to keep supping from it. Humanity creating their own FTL was obviously an epilogue-type chapter, as it would tie back to Holden's first thoughts in the series about the creation of the Epstein Drive. And yet, despite knowing this, the Coreys drafted a story where the gates were suddenly removed with apocalyptic consequences. I don't know why they did this. There's a part of me that thinks they had that epilogue in mind, hence why Amos didn't go into the ring station, and wouldn't be dissuaded from it. Perhaps it is even what Franck means when he said they had the ending in mind from the start. And yet, was that the only way the story had to go? Could there not have been a story where idealistic information-for-all Jim Holden manages to bridge some kind of understanding with the Goths? "Give us a hundred years to show you that we can find another way, where we don't have to kill each other." Holden has always believed that free information would result in the best outcomes -- why not let him put that to the test, and beam the hive mind goodwill of humanity into the Goths, and gain a single beautiful moment of cross-universal understanding? Have it burn his brain out or whatever, if you're married to the idea of Holden dying for our sins, whatever. Give him one last goodbye to Naomi. The Protomolecule is practically magic at this point, so, you might as well use it to serve the characters and their themes. The ending is entirely fine, in the sense that it goes exactly where you might expect, but it's also awful. It's the sort of graceless ending that shows why the ending of Return of the Jedi is Luke throwing away his lightsaber and being saved by his father. That shows why the ending of Star Trek wasn't Picard blowing up the Borg Queen in her SuperCube. Why Babylon 5 gets self-destructed and John Sheridan can't escape his fate. Why Battlestar Galactica commits to the hand of God and the divine music of the cosmos. Why Neon Genesis Evangelion didn't end with Shinji killing the Mass Produced Evangelions and stopping SEELE. Why Frodo falters at the last second. Why Baru drowns her most valuable asset (Sorry, General!) and why Optimus murders Megatron and Sentinel. And, yes, why Mass Effect 3 didn't end with Shepard kick-flipping off Harbinger's wreckage. The ending of The Expanse is this weird attempt at giving the audience a happy, fan-service-y ending -- even when the authors themselves know that the rules of their setting, and perhaps the conventions of storytelling itself, make it impossible. There's no message here, no takeaway. Nine books and a million words to say "everyone you know and loved died, but someone else lived happily ever after a thousand years later" in the most listless way possible. It hits all the notes one might expect -- Holden sacrifices himself, the gates fall, the Dark Gods are thwarted, Amos lives -- and yet it's as "narrative producty" as the rest of the series. It tries to put everything in a neat little bow where everything was worth it in the end, and yet feels all the worse for it. Which might be why, for so much of this novel, it almost feels like the Coreys are going to do something brave and have the Goths wipe us out of the universe. The point of an ending, I think, is catharsis and pathos. A good ending leaves you with those, and perhaps a sense of disquiet at the same time. It leaves you wanting to see more, but satisfied that you won't, if you won't. But the ending of Leviathan Falls, and The Expanse as a whole, just leaves you with nothing. Perhaps nothing but a question: what was the point? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 13:10
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That sure didn't explain much at all there, really.
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Apr 29, 2024 13:19
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What's the Point of The Expanse? I've been pondering this question for a while now. 'To be fun' or 'to sell books' are both true, sure, but they aren't really answers. This is a nine-book series. It is a nine-book series based on the work of two authors with a setting and characters created through a, to be kind, collaborative process. It follows an expansive cast and ostensibly deals with all kinds of political issues. So, what's the point? The authors themselves offer an answer, echoed by Naomi in the final chapter. "We're spending our whole lives together, so we need to be really gentle." That is not it. I'm not sure that line has any meaning whatsoever. Should the OPA have been 'really gentle' in the face of exploitation from Earth and Mars? Should Holden and co. have been 'really gentle' in the face of the Laconian invasion? Or the Free Navy? Or Protogen? That said, I think the message is pretty obvious when you think about it: "Because that's the kind of monkey we are." Humanity has an intrinsic flaw that is responsible for all the bad things we do to each other. It's an animal flaw that's been bred into our genetic code -- deeper than our brain, deeper than our bones, carried in our very gametes. It's this intrinsic flaw that led to the predations of Earth and Mars upon the belt. It's this flaw that led to Protogen to play dice with the protomolecule. To turn children into child soldier-monsters. To turn uninhabited worlds of alien wonder into petty murder scenes. In the face of such a severe defect, in the face of original loving sin, all you can hope to achieve is to protect your tribe from the predations of others. It bothers me that people act as if this is some deep message. That this series has anything to say. That everything sucks and we're lucky it doesn't get worse. Such a message is a cop-out. Until recently, I've never really known how to explain it. And, ironically, it was an ape that helped me define why I find it so off-putting. The novel Ishmael deals with a discussion between a human and a psychic gorilla about the mythology of humanity. It's very readable with a lot of intriguing ideas, but the author -- Daniel Quinn -- makes one argument that I feel is really relevant here. Basically, Quinn says that any point the terribleness of human nature as a fundamental flaw in humanity has, in itself, a key flaw: it assumes that the history of exploitation is the extent of human history. Ishmael posted:“But people screwed it up.” Which is the problem. Because man, given a story to enact, enacts it without pause. Humanity conquers and consumes because it is taken as a given that if they don't do it, someone else will. Then, by establishing it as human nature, it becomes something that people assume to be true and beyond argument. Babylon 5 posted:Sometimes we stand in front of the light and assume that we are the center of the universe. Revolutionaries are frauds and murderers taking advantage of people who don't know any better. Any supposed messiah is doing the bidding of foreign powers and/or caught in the ruins of history. The best the third would can hope for is to be recognized as a shipping company -- and yet, in doing so, would leave civilization unable to combat the fascists. The only thing you can hope for is a political shark who is slightly less stupid than her compatriots. The height of humanity is a monster who knows he's a monster. Corporations are fine, they just shouldn't start wars or experiment on children. There's nothing you can do about this, so, be gentle. Or, perhaps, let yourself be smothered. Noah posted:So for the ten generations since Adam, sin has walked within us. Brother against brother, nation against nation, man against creation. We murdered each other. We broke the world -- we did this! Man did this. Everything that was beautiful, everything that was good, we shattered. But what is there to cheer about it, when we can't transcend the flaws that led to the collapse of human civilization. Even Battlestar Galactica understood that "all of this has happened before, and it will all happen again" is a warning to act against, a threat that we must not repeat the mistakes of the past. Even Babylon 5 supposes that, in a million years, we'll be shepherds of the next wave of sentient life, hopefully doing better than our metaphorical parents were. But The Expanse's epilogue paints something dire: that were civilization to collapse, it appears that the human flaws that killed it, neoliberalism, capitalism, whatever you wish to call it, would survive -- and all we'd need would be a few beers to get us walking towards Armageddon one more time. If humanity's nature can't be changed, is the arrival of Marrel Imvic and his Thirty Worlds not the worst possible fate to befall the Earth and whoever remains upon it? Like Cortez before him, he has the better ships, the better guns, and all throughout history... Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 13:30
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There's a version of this ending, just slightly different, where they agree to shut down the gates slowly and the Transport Union is in charge of getting people and resources consolidated on the livable colonies before they turn off the gates forever and say "see you in a few thousand years". Holden can keep the Goths back long enough because the authors say so. I don't know if I like it but it feels, actually, more Expansian, more true to the series. e: also that Ishmael quote is very telling, I'd never thought about it but you're right: The Expanse is a series about the nature of the ape but it doesn't appear to have put any thought into that nature, it just repeats what people say to each other to explain why things are bad.
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Apr 29, 2024 14:52
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General Battuta posted:There's a version of this ending, just slightly different, where they agree to shut down the gates slowly and the Transport Union is in charge of getting people and resources consolidated on the livable colonies before they turn off the gates forever and say "see you in a few thousand years". Holden can keep the Goths back long enough because the authors say so. Suddenly all that time Naomi spent in a shipping container moving stuff around the gate network and learning about the colonies pays off...
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Apr 29, 2024 15:07
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General Battuta posted:There's a version of this ending, just slightly different, where they agree to shut down the gates slowly and the Transport Union is in charge of getting people and resources consolidated on the livable colonies before they turn off the gates forever and say "see you in a few thousand years". Holden can keep the Goths back long enough because the authors say so. It'd also play into the otherwise 'one and done' idea about there being a lighthouse keeper in the ring station. Maybe Franck got spooked due to a similarity to the Lich King from World of Warcraft where after killing him, a character steps up to the throne as there "must always be a Lich King" to hold back the undead hordes. But yes, I agree, something like that would feel better. PriorMarcus posted:Suddenly all that time Naomi spent in a shipping container moving stuff around the gate network and learning about the colonies pays off... Haha, if only! Kchama posted:That sure didn't explain much at all there, really. Aeons ago, the Builders shoved the ring station into an another "older" universe to generate power from the force of that universe trying to expel it. This universe either is a sentient thing itself or is inhabited by a race of seemingly incomprehensible beings, and the ring station was painful to them. When the Builders had constructed the 1300~ gates, at the height of their power, the 'dark gods' (for lack of a better term) struck back and began wiping them out. The Builders, being a species of sentient light-based jellyfishes that existed in a hive mind, were extremely vulnerable to the dark gods' influence. Despite this, the Builders were able to determine that a species within the substrate would be able to survive and defeat the dark gods. Either by destroying them or simply preventing them from intruding again. The Builders shut down the gates and assume that someone will eventually stumble upon the ring station and activate the weapon/s they themselves could not wield. Through a cosmic accident and a series of fortunate events, the protomolecule that was sent to wipe out Earth doesn't and humanity stumbles onto the scene. We activate the ring station. Soon after, ships begin disappearing as the dark gods get agitated. Some guy named Duarte begins dosing himself up on the protomolecule for unclear reasons, although he claims to have known about the dark gods pretty early on. Thirty years pass. We discover the Adro diamond, which is some kind of Builder backup drive. Duarte attempts to communicate with the dark gods by flinging antimatter bombs into their universe, which seemingly infuriates them, although I think the final novel makes one wonder if it was ever possible to communicate with them at all. In return, the dark gods seemingly blow Duarte's mind out of his brain by accident and something influenced by the Builders/protomolecule grows back in its place. As the dark gods get closer to figuring out One Weird Trick to Kill All Humans, Duarte makes his way to the ring station and begins connecting all of humanity into a hive mind, which will either resurrect the Builders in actuality or simply in form. Either way, it appears that humanity as we understand it as individuals will cease to be. (Note: the weapons may not exist, and a lot of what we know about the Builders has come through a variety of people who were being lied to in order to get them aboard the ring station.) Holden injects himself with the protomolecule to gain superpowers of his own. Tanaka beats Duarte to death. Holden takes Duarte's place in the ring station and manages to hold the dark gods back long enough for humanity to leave the ring space behind, without giving into the protomolecule's temptation to finish what Duarte set in motion. Holden then appears to let the dark gods collapse the space the ring station is within, annihilating everything, or chose to self-destruct the ring station to that same end. Either way, humanity experiences a cataclysmic collapse, with Sol seemingly being one of the hardest hit. Which is the system where most of the characters went. At least a thousand years later, a ship arrives in Sol. It is a human ship with its own FTL drive. There are thirty worlds in existence at this point, but it isn't mentioned if that means thirty worlds that survived the collapse or thirty worlds that have been colonized or rediscovered since -- I would say likely the latter. The ship lands on Earth and the captain is greeted by Amos who figures they can get reacquainted. The condition of Earth is extremely fuzzy but Sol appears to have regressed to a single world with a level of technological development that the captain does not immediately recognize. No other worlds are mentioned, excluding the captain's world of Dobridomov which has never been mentioned before. As for Amos... Ty Franck, 2021 posted:And as a guide for a broken humanity, he seems like a guy, as Daniel said, without sentimentality. So he’s going to say, “Stop being such dipshits.” And when they don’t stop being a bunch of dipshits, he’s going to kill all the ones that are necessary to get everybody else back on board. […] He just seems like the perfect person to do that. Do you think they saw the irony in getting rid of Duarte just to throw Earth under the whims of a slightly-nicer immortal tyrant?
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Apr 29, 2024 15:52
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