Diet and Nutrition Thread: Grain Free Is Not The Way To Be

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > Diet and Nutrition Thread: Grain Free Is Not The Way To Be

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

Grantaire posted:

I haven't been in this forum since it was PI, but I based my cat food choices on the pet food threads (Wellness Core Indoor dry) and now that one of my elderly kitties is starting to deal with some kidney disease I was hoping to mine your resources again. The vet is recommending Hill's or Royal Canin, which I'm not dismissing out of hand, but I remember vets explicitly saying Hill's at least pays clinics to promote them, so I want to get some other opinions before I pull the trigger on anything.

Basically just doing Food For Old Cat Kidneys research, but every website I go to seems to be based on ads and I'd appreciate insight. I know poo poo's changed over the years and I'm completely open to being corrected and pointed in the right direction.

Also here's Dixie because she's a supermodel and it's disgusting

I fed my CKD cat Farmina Renal.

# ¿ May 24, 2020 08:12

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 14:06

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

feedback loop posted:

I just got a bonded pair of cats this weekend and apparently need to re-learn how to feed cats. I'm about to transition them off the cheapo Purina that their foster mom fed them, but I bought a big ol bag of Nutrish grain-free food before seeing the OP's warning about grain-free foods - should I really be avoiding them at all costs? Don't wanna give them poison but don't wanna overreact and rush to donate or return the food either.

No, they figured out the taurine issue with feline feed in the 70's. All cat food has taurine additive now and isn't a problem.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2020 02:00

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

For a little more background, dogs and humans can synthesize taurine internally, cats can't. Hence the need for taurine additives in feline feed. It wasn't expected to be a problem in dogs due to being able to synthesize internally, but it looks like at least some of the grain free formulas may not have enough of the requisite base ingredients to synthesize.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2020 02:05

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

Organza Quiz posted:

That said, the whole grain fee debacle led me to understand that there's actually very little regulation of cat food, and a lot of the grain free brands that are popping up are small operations that don't necessarily have the science knowledge backing them up to make decent food, so it's worth considering using the bigger brands as they actually formulate the food right.

I went with Orijen because they pretty regularly win pet food awards. Using Fromms right now but I might move the new canine over to Orijen.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2020 07:38

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

Innocuous posted:

Is there any meaningful distinction in health or outcomes between the large brand kidney diet foods for dogs? Our vet started us off with Hills and honestly it just felt like we were feeding her a blob of fat but she loved it even if it made her poop a little weird. We switched to Royal Canin and the poop is more normal but she likes it a lot less even though she finishes her portions.

The dog in question is a 14-15 year old shepherd mutt with stage 3 failure who is otherwise incredibly spry and active, if a bit lumpy.

The main veterinary diets are all pretty much garbage. Check with Farmina, they do high-quality vet diets. Keep in mind you'll probably have to order from them (the few places in the states that stock Farmina don't carry vet diets), and you'll need to send them a copy of the prescription from your vet.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2020 21:36

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

My vet's advice when I was feeding orijen was that if I was concerned to supplement additional taurine. You can get it as chewable tablets.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2020 09:53

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

WhatEvil posted:

So, gently caress. I'm confused as hell.

I have 2 kittens, now 12 weeks old, and I'm trying to work out what to feed them. They came from their birth home on Friskies Turkey wet food and Whiskas kitten dry - the worst, but cheapest brands available (I'm in Canada, btw).

One of them is absolutely fine but the other may be a bit constipated as he freaks out and goes skittish and meows a lot when he needs to poop. The vet said that they had a friend with a cat on Friskies, and it was constipated, getting enemas twice a week, then they switched off Friskies and it was absolutely fine.

Of course there are *so many* pet food brands out there and they vary wildly in terms of price, protein content, ingredients etc. so I'm trying to figure it all out, and I've done what came naturally: I made a big rear end spreadsheet comparing different kinds of wet food and dry foods (separately, I'd like them to have both).

So the previous thread was talking about obviously all the grain free stuff, and now there's a scare for dogs but we seem to think it's OK for cats, but maybe legumes aren't so good or interfere with taurine uptake or something?

Anyway, going by what was in the previous thread, for dry foods protein content is key and being high calorie per kg is also good because the cats may feel fuller on a smaller amount of food... but if I go by those metrics then Whiskas kitten actually comes out really well: 43% protein and 3600kcal/kg. The kcal/kg figure isn't so amazing but 43% protein is higher than all but the most premium foods. Of course the first ingredient for Whiskas is "Chicken by-product meal" followed by corn gluten meal, ground yellow corn, and then animal fat, so I know it is not high quality.

Then on the other end of the confusing scale you have something like Canadian Naturals which only has 32% protein and 3836kcal/kg, but has Turkey, Turkey Meal, Peas, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (stabilized with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Salmon Meal as it's first few ingredients and also stuff like Cranberry, Apple, Blueberry etc. so it seems like good quality ingredients, but is available *cheaper* than Whiskas:
https://www.homesalive.ca/cat/food/dry-and-kibble/canadian-naturals-cat-food-turkey-salmon.html

What actually seems to be coming out at the best bang per buck right now is Solid Gold Indigo Moon which is 42% protein, high quality ingredients, 3860kcal/kg and is something like $8-11CAD/kg, or something like Horizon Legacy, 40% protein, $9CAD/kg:

https://www.homesalive.ca/horizon-legacy-cat-kitten-food.html

So like, how the hell do I even evaluate? Are the priorities to have good meat ingredients ("Chicken" rather than "chicken by-product meal"), then protein content, then healthy carbs (potatoes instead of corn) or what?

Cats are different. They don't synthesize taurine like dogs so sufficient amounts need to be included in their diet; this got figured out for them in like the 70's? With dogs there is something that impacting their ability to synthesize taurine or absorb it, or something like that, I haven't read what the latest research is.

Cats are obligate carnivores, so their should be no grain in their food and little to no vegetable matter at all (think about their standard prey, basically all the plant matter they would get would be what would happen to be in the GI tract of what they've caught). Any cat food that has grain is a marker for something that's low quality.

The big thing with "by-product meal" is that it can be poorly defined, and is usually going to be in a food that's also going to be full of other fillers like grain that they won't be able to process properly.

Cats typically have a problem getting enough moisture, so a wet food is preferred over a dry food.
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Personally, we feed our feline overlords Orijen dry during the day and Tiki Cat canned food in the evening, I've also fed stuff like Merrick and Solid Gold. Any dedicated pet food chain (I like Pet Pros and Mud Bay) that doesn't carry bottom-tier foods will probably be able to give good recommendations, heck I think even PetSmart and Petco have both signed on to not carry low-tier brands in the interest of pet health.

There used to be a pet food ratings thread but I'm sure it's horribly out of date. I'm not sure what outside ratings sites there are for cat food at the moment.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2020 22:47

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

AnonymousNarcotics posted:

So I have a new kitten, she's 10 weeks old. The people who rescued her were feeding her kitten food - Royal Canin Mother & Babycat and Blue Freedom Indoor Kitten Grain-Free Chicken recipe. They said she ate a whole can every 3 hours.

I picked her up on Tuesday night, and when I tried to feed her, she barely ate. I assumed it was bc she was uncomfortable in the new setting and I left it for her overnight. She ate most of it. But over the past few days, she only eats like 1 can per day, spread out every 2-3 hours.

However! She seems to really like the food that I feed my adult cats (Fussie Cat).

Is she going to miss out on any important kitten nutrition if she eats what the cats are eating?

My gut tells me that it's more important that she eat and gain weight, rather than just nibbling on kitten food.

I tried mixing them together, but she still left the kitten food untouched.

Kitten food is usually the same as adult cat food just smaller pieces that are easier to eat.

With ours we basically left dry food out all the time so they could eat as much as they wanted, and then give them some wet food in the evening. They'll eat a lot because they're extremely active and growing.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2020 08:00

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

coke posted:

Want to chime in and say thanks to y�all for the last thread.

A cat got me a few years ago and she�s literally only been eating one food her entire life since she was a kitten.

Solid Gold Indigo Moon.

I also remembered the recommendation for wet food being better, so ever since day one i�ve added a ton of water to the kibbles so she will have to drink up before getting to her food. Or she just eat the soggy kibbles that�s full of water.

She never get excited about her food or follow me as I put her food down but the bowl will be empty after a few hours or the next day either way.

Also she piss so much that she goes through the litter quite quickly and there are always huge clumped piss in the box.
At the same time the litter box never smell of ammonia or anything at all which has been amazing. She�s also pretty much the perfect weight judging from the cat shape photo someone posted earlier.

The best part is like someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the food is really high in protein that she doesn�t need to eat much especially with a ton of added water. One bag can last like a month or two for her.

So thanks y�all.

Urinating a lot is a sign of kidney issues. Get your cat in to the vet.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2021 19:10

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

AnonymousNarcotics posted:

Vet checkup yesterday - apparently both my male cats (~2 years old) are overweight and he said I should completely cut out giving them dry food.

My kitten (~10 months) pretty much ONLY likes the dry food and is at an acceptable weight.

Are there any actual health issues as a result of cats being overweight? (i.e. Looking for causation, not correlation)

YES. High weight leads to joint issues for one, and is a causal factor for a lot of other health issues, just like every animal.

If you need to continue feeding one of the cats dry, one option is to lock the dry behind a feeder that will open for that cat only, there's several on the market, including ones that will tag off of the cat's microchip.

Might be a good idea to just do all three so you can ensure portioning.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2021 07:54

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

I was feeding mine a Farmina vet diet. You'll probably have to order it and have it shipped if you want to go that route.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2022 06:26

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

WhatEvil posted:

Seems like it's not available in Canada.

You have to order it from them and have it shipped.

https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop-cat/cat-food/75-farmina-vet-life-feline.html

# ¿ Jan 9, 2022 05:46

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

drk posted:

Took my ~12 year old cat to a vet appointment today, and the vet said grain free is linked to heart disease. As near as I can tell from online research, this is maybe true in dogs, but there isnt any evidence one way or another for cats. She is healthy per the exam, pending some blood work. The vet didnt seem to be suggesting a particular brand or anything, just that I consider some sort of animal protein + rice based food as opposed to grain free.

The thread doesnt seem to take a strong opinion one way or another on cat food other than feed what works. If I can feed something that costs less and is as healthy or more healthy than grain free, I will certainly consider new foods.

It's not the case for cats, cats are obligate carnivores and get no value from grains.

The issues they "had" with foods in the past was that they're unable to synthesize taurine, they have to consume it, and that wasn't properly included in foods in the past. That's been resolved for a loooong time though.

I've gotta say, I'm kind of concerned that your vet doesn't know this, that's REALLY basic level feline biology.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2022 08:46

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

Dazerbeams posted:

I figure it�s worth asking in here too: my cat Echo developed diabetes while on prednisolone. He�s currently being weaned off the steroids and I�m looking into getting him on a low carb diet that will also prevent crystals from developing. He prefers dry to wet so I�m kind of stuck, and my vet is almost certainly going to recommend a science hills diet which probably isn�t the greatest. Any recommendations?

https://www.farmina.com/us/eshop/cat-food/farmina-vet-life-feline/751-urinary-st/control-feline.html

This is what I was feeding.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2022 05:31

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 14:06

MikeyTsi: Jan 11, 2009

Ragnar Gunvald posted:

I get that, turns out our doggo has some kind of allergy somewhere and rather trying to work out what it was they just want us to feed her expensive prescription food.

She vomits a little each day that she's off it and it's caused her pneumonia so obviously we're concerned about her a lot right now. But I'd feel much better if we could identify what the actual allergen is rather than just avoiding "everything".

I guess it's just going to take us a long time to figure it out. Are actual allergen tests for dogs a thing even?

I don't see why they wouldn't but they're likely to be ruinously expensive.

Normal guidance with that sort of thing seems to be trying one of the limited ingredient diets or a novel protein.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 17:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Pet Island > Diet and Nutrition Thread: Grain Free Is Not The Way To Be