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A_Bluenoser posted:Absolutely agreed! There is also a certain cultural valorization of being a cynical rear end in a top hat, although I think that that has been, somewhat, fading.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:38
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:also loved this NOI, thank you lol e: I'm sorry, that was a little out there way of explaining what i see in him. I was a little stressed out and he's an intense person. nice obelisk idiot fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 17:50
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:posting Tillich in multiple threads today like a freak  While I may not entirely agree with Tillich, I do always appreciate seeing his perspective.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:53
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I wrote these up years ago: The Break with the Myth of Origin in Judaism Brandor’s note, this chapter to be gentle is showing it’s age. It was definitely written in Germany in the thirties. It’s not antisemitic, it’s an explanation of why fascists hate the Jews. But it makes some assumptions that are problematic and it’s correct to call them problematic or worse but the core concept the idea of the prophetic and its role breaking Myths of Origin, is fantastically important. So here I go. So we’ve got this pantheon of Myths of Origin. Blood, Soil, Society, etc in all the specific concrete expressions particular to each culture. How does that interact with monotheism? What does “All One” or “All in One” do to the story “ I am from here”. It is destructive of that story. When Nietzsche talks about Christianity being “destructive of values” this is what he’s talking about. So where does this originate, it originates in the combination of Ancient Greek thought, specifically Platonism and Neo-Platonism with the monotheism of Judaism. quote:“The mythical consciousness creates all-embracing unities and and tries to overcome polytheism by the imperialism of one god (emphasis Tillich’s), that is, of one space. …(But) The original attachment to the soil, however, is stronger than the power of the all-embracing unity… Domination by space is broken where a tendency in this direction has been established- in the social group, and in connection with the demand implied by the father symbol. Being loses it’s immediacy through the “ought”. That question of the “ought cannot be answered by reference to what is. “ The good transcends being” (Plato) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUJ1Z4kqV8A quote:It is the significance of Jewish Prophetism to have fought explicitly against the myth of origin and the attachment to space and to have conquered them… God is free from the soil , the sacred land , not because he has conquered but precisely because he has lead foreign conquers into his own land in order to punish the people of his inheritance… Thus the myth of origin is shattered—and this is the world historical mission of the Jewish prophetism.” Now what Tillich is talking about here is basically the ability of religion (and I would not restrict this to Judaism / Christianity as he did in the thirties (though he later abandoned that restriction)) to break myths of origin. In our society the best way to understand this process is to look at the African American community. Malcolm X, Dr. King etc. I think the best way to get this concept is this sentence. “God drat America”. The anger that things now are not as they ought to be now: “God drat America.” The religious breaking of myth of origin is: I am hungry now may you never bear fruit again. Anyway the breaking of “Soil”, place based Myths of Origin, in this way is a good and necessary thing. It is our myths being broken by the failures of those myths. The religious breaking of myth of origin is often apocalyptic: "You can run on for a long time, Tell em that God is going to cut you down." But one can already probably see where this is going. This is why the German fascists hated the Jews. This is one of the reasons why our fascists hate POC and Muslims. Diverging from Tillich, as the concept didn’t exist at the time, I think the “not-all” is useful here. The not-all is when we look at our myth and see it’s limits and understand that that it isn’t the whole. It doesn’t describe all reality, it’s “not-all”. In some cases the “not-all” has been equated with the feminine or with socialism or with authentic Christianity. Not-all breaks the myth, it breaks the cyclical, it ends the status quo.
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Apr 18, 2024 17:59
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And the one on rationality: The Break with the Myth of Origin in the Enlightenment and the Romantic Reaction But something else breaks myths of origin, rationality. “The autonomous consciousness suppresses the dimensions or origin, the depth dimensions, so to speak.” Basically, with rationality we can break poo poo up into finite parts. We can order poo poo in casual relationships. With testing and science and rigorousness criticism, we can go “Soil?” gently caress that look at this bullshit myth, that poo poo’s wrong for X, Y and Z reasons. Education and reason break that poo poo apart. So do the structures of a modern and capitalist economy (more on that later). Anyway these two forces Prophetism and Rationality (which are often opposed) break Myths of Origin. Some of the specific myths they broke were feudalism and monarchy. The breaking of these myths moved us from Feudalism to Capitalism and underlie the Protestant / Catholic divide in Christianity. It’s also important to note they preceded Capitalism they do not proceed from Capitalism. They can break it as a myth, in the same way they broke previous myths. Anyway, dialectics are dialectics so what is the reaction? Political Romanticism. Tillich defines this term as a negation and as the second part of a dialectic: “ Political Romanticism is, thus, the counter movement to prophetism and the Enlightenment on the basis of a spiritual and social situation that is determined by prophetism and the Enlightenment. We can understand Political Romanticism here as a big umbrella that contains both conservatism and fascism Tillich continues: quote:It is thereby compelled to fight under presuppositions that it denies and with methods that it attacks in its opponents. It is forced to use the ethical categories of prophetism and to portray itself as a higher ethos., even though the myth of origin as such excludes ethics. And it is forced to use rational analysis as a means of establishing itself (for example historical, sociological, and psychological investigation ) and thus appeal to the very thing it distrusts in principle as alien to the origin. In this way the theories of political romanticism arise ; despite the frequently brilliant in which they are developed, they cannot escape the contradiction of having to establish the irrational by rational means (Brandor’s note, Think of the Libertarian example of Praxeology here). In this way to emerges the praxis of political romanticism, which in the soil of a consciously organized society has to adopt the very rational forms of organization it seeks to abolish (Brandors note, here think of the characteristics of Ur-Fascism). The Myth of Origin can only return – unbroken, as is necessary for it—if the society in which it has been broken comes to an end. The Middle Ages were only possible because antiquity and its whole system of rational perception and shaping the world came to an end…. Now there is a lot to unpack there. Why conservative and fascists are the way they are, why accelerationism is probably garbage are among the implied conclusions. But the following chapters address how the above plays out in conservative and revolutionary Romantic groups informed by Tillich's experiences in Germany. So I’ll be writing about that next. Returning to the not-all, political Romanticism could be considered a rejection of the valid argument of “not-all” about a particular myth of origin.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:00
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Ridiculous, next you'll be telling me Capitalism was not invented by Satan in the Garden of Eden. That is interesting stuff though. I wonder if the sort of little green shoots of place-based myth-making come about when you have things like regional pride or perception of different cultures. I hope Tillich gets to some kind of a synthesis, because it seems very difficult for such a thing to be completely left aside.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:07
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Nessus posted:I hope Tillich gets to some kind of a synthesis, because it seems very difficult for such a thing to be completely left aside. Correlation not synthesis. Internally one looks at the current serious questions raised by history and philosophy and correlates an answer from the revelatory religious source. Externally instead of seeking a synthesis one seeks correlation with other traditions to point in the same direction, rather than attempting to sublimate them or be sublimated into them.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:29
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Correlation not synthesis. There is a certain irony, of course, in how easily and fluidly the various local chauvinist groups come together and make common cause.
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Apr 18, 2024 18:49
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Nessus posted:There is a certain irony, of course, in how easily and fluidly the various local chauvinist groups come together and make common cause. I was taking about this with my wife and we reached a rough conclusion. Authoritarianism (right or left) creates the opening for those with unrestricted self interest (Niebuhr’s children of darkness). Once groups are under the control of folks that act with unrestricted self interest , they don’t have to try cooperate, they will all just be acting against anything trying to restrain that self interest. These groups aren’t like friends working together and I think cooperation isn’t a good way to think of it. The rest of us, who are preventing them from just taking whatever they want, they’ll oppose that and they don’t have to communicate to all be doing so. (But some of them are communicating).
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Apr 18, 2024 19:26
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It sounds like you're describing demoralisation. Kind of like how the post occupation Iraqi armed forces collapsed in the face of ISIS. They were practicing absenteeism and working day jobs while passing on half their pay in backhanders to make the brass look the other way. ISIS bought off all the old Baathist officers. So in the end the whole thing collapsed like a pack of cards. Actually this is probably only tangential to what you were saying now that I think of it.
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Apr 19, 2024 09:46
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The Holy Spirit's Voice is as loud as your willingness to listen. It cannot be louder without violating your freedom of choice, which the Holy Spirit seeks to restore, never to undermine. - A Course in Miracles
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Apr 19, 2024 10:20
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welp, i am well and truly f e c k e d, as a newly confirmed episcopalian ok buddy you gave me the road now help move these obstacles out my way kthxbye,
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Apr 20, 2024 13:33
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I think in some cases that is traditionally dealt with by Ganesh.
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Apr 20, 2024 14:04
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I went to confession yesterday, and I just now realized I may have left the list I made in my shirt pocket when I put it in the washer. My sins are in the laundry right now. Surely there's a message here.
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Apr 20, 2024 14:56
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The odor of sanctity is fabric conditioner.
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Apr 21, 2024 13:18
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I'm almost tempted to effort post about A Course in Miracles. Because there's a whole story around the text, the story of how it came to be. There are five versions of it! Is this the place to do that or should I start a new thread? Is there even any interest in this? I'm just spitballing.
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Apr 21, 2024 18:29
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I would be interested in your effortpost! I liked thisPrurient Squid posted:The Holy Spirit's Voice is as loud as your willingness to listen. It cannot be louder without violating your freedom of choice, which the Holy Spirit seeks to restore, never to undermine. - A Course in Miracles when you shared it, but didn't comment since I had nothing more profound to say than "I like this"
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Apr 22, 2024 01:29
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"this reminds me of process theory and the persuasive God blah blah. listening to the Spirit is theonomy blah blah etc" I guess I could have said this but it is only coming to me now, so that's all it gets
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Apr 22, 2024 01:31
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I second.
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Apr 22, 2024 02:56
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If I get round to it I'll do it here. I don't think I can sustain an entire Ask/Tell thread on the topic.
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Apr 22, 2024 08:30
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Prurient Squid posted:The Holy Spirit's Voice is as loud as your willingness to listen. It cannot be louder without violating your freedom of choice, which the Holy Spirit seeks to restore, never to undermine. - A Course in Miracles id like to say that i also like this a bunch.
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Apr 22, 2024 08:34
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Ohtori Akio posted:id like to say that i also like this a bunch. I'd also like to say that but I'm unsure if that is supported by anything in the Bible except it feeling nice and in tune with the general vibes of the matter. I should probably read the context. E: a bit like the "no one us given a greater burden than what they are able to carry" in that it is inspirational but also wishful thinking. I can think of several instances in the Bible where God doesn't limit Himself to leaving much room for individual freedom of action. Jonah or Pharaoh, for example. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 15:12
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Valiantman posted:I'd also like to say that but I'm unsure if that is supported by anything in the Bible except it feeling nice and in tune with the general vibes of the matter. I should probably read the context. Like when Jesus heals the blind man and a group of Pharisees drive him away: “Surely we are not blind, are we?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains. They think that they see, but it's really blindness. They don't want to see because of pride in their present view of things.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:55
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Valiantman posted:I'd also like to say that but I'm unsure if that is supported by anything in the Bible except it feeling nice and in tune with the general vibes of the matter. I should probably read the context. i don't think these quotes are similar, and I take a strongly new testament view of the work of the Spirit. dramatic conversion experiences do happen but even they are reliant upon free-will choice to get with the program.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:07
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Valiantman posted:I'd also like to say that but I'm unsure if that is supported by anything in the Bible except it feeling nice and in tune with the general vibes of the matter. I should probably read the context. They both did have freedom to make their choices. This is a hard subject because it's entangled with the predestination debate, but God always knows what choices we will make. In Jonah's case, God steered him to the choice he knew Jonah would make – that is, the choice Jonah's spirit would accept. In Pharaoh's case, similarly, God saw what Pharaoh's spirit would or would not accept; when it says he "hardened Pharaoh's heart" it means he strengthened his will or steeled him to do what he already wanted to do. This ties together with "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose" in Romans 8:28.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:47
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From my ontological perspective I would also suggest the dissonance being perceived there is because the God that is hardening Pharaoh's heart is a Deity, Yahweh, and that which is called the Spirit is the God Who would never violate one's freedom of choice, the Divinity "beyond any manifoldness," the "Ultimate Holy." A Deity might behave imperfectly, but the Holy does not.
LITERALLY A BIRD fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 20:18
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Chag Pesach Sameach!
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Apr 23, 2024 01:47
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Any Calvanists here? If so for what is your reason for believing such. I can't say I've ever felt any understanding on how one could so...differently understand the bible and having just seen the masterful untangling of personal experience with the system that is Paul Schrader's Hardcore I'm once more at a loss at how anyone could come to any of the conclusions that Calvin did or why anyone would willingly choose to follow his directives.
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Apr 24, 2024 05:36
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This may come across as a harsh opinion but IMO John Calvin is personally responsible for a huge amount of the modern world's ills and if I had access to a time machine I would go back and smother him in the cradle.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:17
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Or like distract him at a formative moment or something IDK but I genuinely believe that Calvinism led to an inordinate amount of genuine and verifiable evil that the world continues to suffer from today, he said as he gestured vaguely at hosed-up American Protestantism.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:20
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Mad Hamish posted:Or like distract him at a formative moment or something IDK but I genuinely believe that Calvinism led to an inordinate amount of genuine and verifiable evil that the world continues to suffer from today, he said as he gestured vaguely at hosed-up American Protestantism.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:31
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Mad Hamish posted:This may come across as a harsh opinion but IMO John Calvin is personally responsible for a huge amount of the modern world's ills and if I had access to a time machine I would go back and smother him in the cradle. yeah sorry to the believers but gently caress jean calvin
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Apr 24, 2024 19:06
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why do i despise and forsake the french? john calvin
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Apr 24, 2024 19:12
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get a load of this. johnny fivepoints
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Apr 24, 2024 20:35
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Mad Hamish posted:This may come across as a harsh opinion but IMO John Calvin is personally responsible for a huge amount of the modern world's ills and if I had access to a time machine I would go back and smother him in the cradle. regardless of what you think about time-travel infanticide, everyone has to acknowledge how funny it would be to alter the destiny of this specific person
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Apr 24, 2024 21:54
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A Jewish friend of mine was taking a theology class and they learned about Calvin. She asked me, almost in tears, “Why do people believe this?” I just sighed and looked her in the eyes and said, “I don’t know.”
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Apr 24, 2024 22:06
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Thirteen Orphans posted:A Jewish friend of mine was taking a theology class and they learned about Calvin. She asked me, almost in tears, “Why do people believe this?” I just sighed and looked her in the eyes and said, “I don’t know.” Because therapy didn't exist then. Calvin and particularly his successors needed therapy in the worst way.
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Apr 24, 2024 23:25
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Thirteen Orphans posted:A Jewish friend of mine was taking a theology class and they learned about Calvin. She asked me, almost in tears, “Why do people believe this?” I just sighed and looked her in the eyes and said, “I don’t know.” The ability to elevate yourself above others is one that is cherished by many even if they'd like it not to be, and breaking out of that mindset usually requires deep dedication to a belief system that honors and empathizes with general humanity, Christianity for example. Now imagine you can twist yourself into enjoying all the perks of self absorption and arrogance while also pretending it is morally just. Truly a heinous invention. Ohtori Akio posted:why do i despise and forsake the french? john calvin The French are responsible for some of the greatest art in history; in Literature, Cinema, Poetry, Architecture, Cuisine and Painting they are Titans, unfortunately like their Deutsch cousins the second they try and grapple with Theology or Philosophy they resemble children whom have had an unfortunate encounter with naegleria fowleri. Let us remember them instead as the people who brought us Flaubert, Bresson, Escoffier and an actual release for Coppola's Megalopolis
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Apr 24, 2024 23:34
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i think we should really dig in and litigate the value of the french here
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Apr 24, 2024 23:42
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Apr 24, 2024 23:44
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