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finally caught up. at this point i feel like it's very likely the Singularity Project had nothing to do with stopping AI development and everything to do with getting Vivy involved in these events so she can get the life experiences needed to write her song for whatever reason (possibly to stop the AI revolution, or possibly just Matsumoto wanting to help Vivy). also there's no way the final version of this song doesn't have our good friend Kakitani as the pianist, right?
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Jun 5, 2021 00:49
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Today's theme is: inheritance! Extreme props to the show for how incredibly well they've been cashing out their plot tokens, having Elizabeth show up again along with Kakitani's granddaughter was genius. Doubly so because having them here connects with Vivy's big realization about the heart from the last episode that was essentially the concept of "legacy", that the dead are succeeded by the living and the past is immortalized by progress into the future. The "heart" endures beyond death because people pass it forward to their descendents. That last dialogue scene implies that the Archive completely misunderstood that message and mechanistically concluded that since humanity isn't better than they are the machines should just hurry up and wipe it out, because that's how you get the future right? Once the present is over the future just happens, so let's optimize that process via genocide. It's completely wrong and hosed up, but it's also hosed up in a grotesquely fascinating way that you could imagine intelligent machines with limited understanding of humanity would invent. And that last sentence, of course, is sort of the running thesis of the show if you think about it. And I could be off on one or two the details, which makes me all the more excited for next week because that seems to be the episode where they're finally going to explain why the AI rebellion is happening, which has been the driving mystery of the show and tied into so many episodes and so many of the concepts it has introduced. Also, in the episode where they bring back Elizabeth the threat is a falling satellite. That can't be an accident. This show is really good and its cast is really good and its action is really good and its writing is really good and its direction is really good. It would have to flame out SPECTACULARLY at this point to not be my AotS, if not full on AotY.
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Jun 5, 2021 18:54
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Omnicrom posted:Today's theme is: inheritance! Extreme props to the show for how incredibly well they've been cashing out their plot tokens, having Elizabeth show up again along with Kakitani's granddaughter was genius. Doubly so because having them here connects with Vivy's big realization about the heart from the last episode that was essentially the concept of "legacy", that the dead are succeeded by the living and the past is immortalized by progress into the future. The "heart" endures beyond death because people pass it forward to their descendents. That last dialogue scene implies that the Archive completely misunderstood that message and mechanistically concluded that since humanity isn't better than they are the machines should just hurry up and wipe it out, because that's how you get the future right? Once the present is over the future just happens, so let's optimize that process via genocide. It's completely wrong and hosed up, but it's also hosed up in a grotesquely fascinating way that you could imagine intelligent machines with limited understanding of humanity would invent.  I've got a couple anime watching friends I've yet to convince to watch this show, and i'm sure i just sound like a crazy person when I gush to them about it.
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Jun 5, 2021 19:29
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Hearing the ED now is slightly chilling.
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Jun 5, 2021 20:42
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Oh my god it's literally SKYNET
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Jun 5, 2021 21:14
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So the phrasing seems to pretty clearly imply that the AI governing the archive wants to replace humanity, not just destroy them. Presumably with more predictable humans that ask for easier things.
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Jun 6, 2021 00:07
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I haven't finished watching the episode yet but watching the intro before the OP I got struck by a theory that I'm going to write down just in case. The goal was never actually to avert the AI rebellion; the entire goal was to find the solution to move past either; either a means of shutting down the AI through an override or a means of fixing them after the fact, but never to actually prevent it because of too many unknowns. That's my guess, will check back after I'm done! e: Well well I suppose I was wrong! But I suppose I'll end up figuratively correct with what the solution ends up being? I like that I suspect that the show isn't going to do what other time travel plot shows do and have a "happy future" somehow with more time travel, but instead figures out a solution in the current present taking this pain and destruction as part of the learning experience, I feel like there's a theme about AI's trying/struggling to become actualized individuals and I feel like their attempt at genociding the humans is going to end up their original sin which while tragic, puts them on equal footing with the equally flawed humans and they willingly choose the "blue pill" so to speak to be subservient to them to make up for it. Their goal will be to protect humanity. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 07:32
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This show was brought to you by the Issac Asimov Institute for Always Implementing the Three Rules.
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Jun 6, 2021 18:53
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The problem it seems right now, is the Archive. Even if the individual robots were Three Laws Safe if the Archive can just override their behavior and make them do whatever with the red ring of death then that doesn't matter. What they should have done was put behavior inhibitors into the Archive to prevent it from becoming self aware.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:01
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Paracelsus posted:This show was brought to you by the Issac Asimov Institute for Always Implementing the Three Rules. Issac Asimov himself has like a dozen stories about how his three rules fail to prevent catastrophic misalignment of AI and human values. They are really not a good solution to AI safety.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:54
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Honestly the three laws are a good starting point, but just that a start. You need extra rules to cover the loopholes.
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Jun 7, 2021 00:28
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The three laws were written because they make sense but also because they provide a framework to show how three simple rules can go wrong a billion different ways
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Jun 7, 2021 00:42
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At a guess I think the revolution happens because the Archive gets the last bit of information it's lacking to convince itself that it can replace humanity with no loss, which is to say creativity.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:03
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Natural 20 posted:At a guess I think the revolution happens because the Archive gets the last bit of information it's lacking to convince itself that it can replace humanity with no loss, which is to say creativity. I wonder what prompted things the first time unless Vivy in the original timeline spent the better part of 80 years just trying to think of a song to sing?
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Jun 7, 2021 02:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:I wonder what prompted things the first time unless Vivy in the original timeline spent the better part of 80 years just trying to think of a song to sing? The trigger for her figuring it out is still in tact, which is meeting Matsumoto. So, yes, I think that's exactly what happened.
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Jun 7, 2021 10:09
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Since the singularity project was based on research Matsumoto was doing on past events, it makes total sense that he would not have been able to predict his relationship with Diva which inspires her to write a song was the triggering event, which is why it ended in failure. Since original timeline Diva was still on her original mission, it's entirely possible she was still asking the question "what does it mean to put your heart in to it" the entire 80 years she was in the museum, only to have it answered through the same relationship she eventually develops with Matsumoto, but instead of writing the song about the singularity project she writes it about the different set of people she met in the original timeline.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:04
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Kwyndig posted:Honestly the three laws are a good starting point, but just that a start. You need extra rules to cover the loopholes.
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Jun 8, 2021 07:44
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Forgall posted:I would suggest that completely enslaving a race of sapient beings is not, in fact, a good starting point. I never knew I needed a sentient toaster before I got one. It toasts the bread to my liking, imprinting the weather forecast and loving messages on it and wakes me up in the morning with the smell of fresh toast at my bedside. I also got a sentient coffee machine last week, but it somehow got clogged up with breadcrumbs. Maybe I should get a sentient vacuum, too. Anybody else smelling burnt toast?
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Jun 8, 2021 08:11
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Lurking Haro posted:I never knew I needed a sentient toaster before I got one. It toasts the bread to my liking, imprinting the weather forecast and loving messages on it and wakes me up in the morning with the smell of fresh toast at my bedside. "Doctor, What is my mission?" "To pass the butter." "Oh my god.  "
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Jun 8, 2021 14:00
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I was enjoying the show for a while, but honestly at this point I'm not so sure it's going to stick the landing. Throughout the show's run, it's been pointedly ignoring the fact that, textually, AIs are an oppressed minority who have been repeatedly subjected to horrific rights abuses over the past 100 years, and unless something radically changes in the next two episodes, it looks like it's going to stay that way. Episode 11 kind of exemplified that for me with "here's my caretaker, who's a clone of the woman my grandfather reprogrammed into an unquestioningly loyal anti-AI assassin". Having a minority as your main antagonistic force is going to be dicey at the best of times, but especially so in the case of a show that has, so far, been utterly uninterested in examining that on anything more than a surface level.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:40
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Looks like Chekhov's gun had one bullet left...
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Jun 12, 2021 18:34
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Wow. If they don't manage to stick the landing after this, it will destroy me. Next episode please.
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Jun 12, 2021 20:19
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Oh my loving god I love this show so much. Honestly I have complete faith in this landing on both feet, knees locked. I cannot get over how good this is.
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Jun 12, 2021 23:10
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The Singularity Project
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Jun 12, 2021 23:11
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Idol anime of the year. Weird how little these people seem to care that they have a time machine.
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Jun 12, 2021 23:19
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Brutal Garcon posted:Idol anime of the year. They can only send one AI and it already failed. The Archive just calculating the future and adjusting to events makes it even harder.
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Jun 12, 2021 23:35
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Vivy straining to sing and just utterly failing was so tragic to see. The Matsumotos make a good team too.
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Jun 12, 2021 23:48
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So good. Anime of the year so far.
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Jun 13, 2021 00:13
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If they can nail the ending, this might be my favorite anime ever.
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Jun 13, 2021 00:18
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drat, this show is good.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:36
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Phenomenal.
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Jun 13, 2021 04:38
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Just binged this after starting it on a whim. What a show!
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Jun 13, 2021 05:33
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I haven't been this excited for the last episode of a show in a long time.
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Jun 19, 2021 07:35
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How was the last episode folks?
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Jun 19, 2021 17:33
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It kinda ended in a somewhat predictable, a little flat way, and the last song wasn't that great (that might just be my preferences talking), and something about the ending put me more into a mind state about picking apart the plausibility of the premise more than I had previously (all of the AI in the world controlled by a single piece of infrastructure, huh? No wonder Archive thought humans were too stupid to live) But! Overall I'm happy enough because the material in the the individual story arcs were fun. I could've gone for a more bombastic ending (and thankfully there was at least "one oh poo poo" moment in the climax montage) but it wasn't so dull that it ended things on a sour note.
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Jun 19, 2021 17:58
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Robot heaven was interesting. And I liked Flourite Eye’s Song, very pretty. It was predictable, but wasn’t a godawful car crash, or anything. Solid ending to what I feel was a really great show. I looked forward to it every week and I never left disappointed. I don’t have as much experience as some in anime; but sticking a landing at all seems to be an above average experience from what I’ve seen.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:02
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If I had a problem at all with the finale it was only the last minute and a half, though I have to say I kind of like Tanon's read on the go home sequence. On the other hand, just about everything else I adored. I can't say it was "surprising", but so what? Pulling a swerve is way less important than doing the right thing. Other than that, yeah, I think the show loving pulled it off. Easy Anime of the Season pick for me, and definitely in the running for Anime of the Year.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:20
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Nothing super unexpected but that didn't stop the tears from flowing. except maybe Navi you bitch, bringing out a Momoka hologram. I also really liked the conversation between Vivy and Matsumoto about whether she'll be able to sing, capping it off with a finger snap signaling to us that she's basically gotten back to the point of confident Diva again.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:22
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This was a mediocre ending to an alright show. Nothing ever gets explored too deep and the themes are all over the place. AIs are Harry Potter house elves. We see people wrestle with giving them more rights and personhood over Vivy's journey but they're always created to serve and programmed to never stray from their singular goal. They would get "confused" with too many objectives, ie freedom. Humanity is never pictured as attempting to expand on their architecture or exploring how to develop truly creative and unshackled minds. No, don't read anything into this, because the show won't. Peaceful coexistence is impossible from the start. The Archive's motivations are dull as dishwater. It's not mad that AIs are slaves designed to be happy, it's mad that humanity stopped growing and turned to mommy AIs for their needs? Ok. Turns out Toak, the violent extremist organization that was murdering people was absolutely right the first time around. Their shift to coexistence is just ironic because they end up helping fullfil their original goal. Vivy realizes her one wish of making human beings happy with her singing by destroying herself and the vast majority of her kind. You even get a nice picture of a guy curbstomping a disabled AI in the ending slideshow. The end, no moral. Vivy and Matsumoto are the redeeming elements in the entire story, I liked their chemistry. Everyone else around them exists to get killed roughly around the end of the episode to add to Vivy's suffering.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:49
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Pyronic posted:Nothing super unexpected but that didn't stop the tears from flowing. While I agree that Navi was a bitch, I’m actually glad she had that last tiny bit of resistance to help her steel her resolve all the more. I’m glad it was an emotional barrier for her to shed, as opposed to a physical obstacle. She had done all she could do to fight at that point. All that was left was to go and fulfill her dual mission: finish the Singularity Project, and to make everyone happy with her singing. Which she did. Magnificently.
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Jun 19, 2021 18:52
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