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Dandywalken posted:I just hope everyone has fun! 
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Apr 21, 2024 20:30
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PurpleXVI posted:I might be missing something, but who's arguing about Eastern Europeans and their views on things? The "communists"/tankies I was referring to are the ones in comfortable liberal western Europe/the US/Canada. I think what he means is the (American) tankies telling folks from Eastern Europe that they should be happy about Russia invading Ukraine, actually, for reasons.
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Apr 21, 2024 21:00
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PurpleXVI posted:I might be missing something, but who's arguing about Eastern Europeans and their views on things? The "communists"/tankies I was referring to are the ones in comfortable liberal western Europe/the US/Canada. whenever Russia's adventures in Ukraine became hot news, the D&D Eastern Europe thread would get a lot of new posters. Some of these new posters were unfortunately were in the habit of arguing with local posters on the assumption that this one tweet they read was on balance with local posters having watched events develop and happen over several days. This happened repeatedly over the years as Russia wouldn't stop doing things. The weeks just before and after the invasion brought this to a head, it was kind of ugly, especially bearing in mind that there originally wasn't a Ukraine thread; it was just the Eastern Europe thread expanded out.
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Apr 21, 2024 23:21
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Ah, my bad, I thought it was specifically a response to something in this thread and got confused.
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Apr 22, 2024 00:24
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Same thing happened in the first two iterations of the Ukraine war thread in GBS. US goons in night shift explaining how Russia invading Ukraine and earlier neighboring countries was actually a good thing, how Eastern Europe is so racist and uneducated on world politics that their opinion doesn't matter, and shutting up or driving out all EU/Eastern Europe goons who tried to give context or explain what was going on from the local perspective. It wouldn't have been that bad, but the management clearly sided with the pro-Russia side, shutting down the thread twice with the pretext of thread being "racist towards Russians and bloodlusty".
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Apr 22, 2024 10:55
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I like how tankies always presume that eastern European countries have no agency and their security concerns are really just a western imperialist plot. Instead of, you know, the direct result of the experience of living under various forms of Russian imperial rule for the past several hundred years until the early 90s.
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Apr 22, 2024 11:03
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I feel like if some assholes rolled up and started executing my neighbours while drooling about how I'm next and posting elaborate diagrams about how my home actually belongs to them, I'd be pretty happy to see those same assholes being vaporized by a missile strike. For both reasons of sympathy towards my neighbours and reasons of not wanting to be the next to get killed. Obviously there's a limit, but I think some amount of "bloodlust" is pretty understandable and human in this context.
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Apr 22, 2024 11:10
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psydude posted:I like how tankies always presume that eastern European countries have no agency and their security concerns are really just a western imperialist plot. Instead of, you know, the direct result of the experience of living under various forms of Russian imperial rule for the past several hundred years until the early 90s. As I said, ideology over practice. Eastern Europe will never be forgiven for pulling apart the bloc that opposed the US, and the fact that this bloc was just a rebadged Russian Empire doesn't come into it.
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Apr 22, 2024 11:30
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Der Kyhe posted:Same thing happened in the first two iterations of the Ukraine war thread in GBS. US goons in night shift explaining how Russia invading Ukraine and earlier neighboring countries was actually a good thing, how Eastern Europe is so racist and uneducated on world politics that their opinion doesn't matter, and shutting up or driving out all EU/Eastern Europe goons who tried to give context or explain what was going on from the local perspective. That was not a good time, talk about feeling marginalised. Then somebody lost the plot and gave everyone in one of the Ukraine threads Space Hilary avatars... as if it something that would make us Europeans sooo angry. 
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Apr 22, 2024 12:14
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Lol how does the US treat Eastern Europe any differently than the military imperial meddling anywhere else in the world? I don't think it's some cultural resentment, given that we'll use any opportunity to put a Burger King on the throne anywhere
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Apr 22, 2024 12:16
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Soul Dentist posted:Lol how does the US treat Eastern Europe any differently than the military imperial meddling anywhere else in the world? I don't think it's some cultural resentment, given that we'll use any opportunity to put a Burger King on the throne anywhere How about we start with how Woodrow Wilson's "self-determination" excluded people of color... and Ukrainians? With how Bush the Elder literally pressured Ukraine against independence? How the Baltics were pressured against independence despite the US policy on paper being that Soviet annexation of them was not to be recognized. Until very recent the US policy was to acquiesce to Russian imperialism in the name for "stability". Not the only place that happened, of course.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:07
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Der Kyhe posted:Same thing happened in the first two iterations of the Ukraine war thread in GBS. US goons in night shift explaining how Russia invading Ukraine and earlier neighboring countries was actually a good thing, how Eastern Europe is so racist and uneducated on world politics that their opinion doesn't matter, and shutting up or driving out all EU/Eastern Europe goons who tried to give context or explain what was going on from the local perspective. For real? I always assumed it was Russian shills I’m American and I don’t know anyone who was/is pro-Russia, not that I hang out with a lot of chudsters though…
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Apr 22, 2024 14:28
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Just Another Lurker posted:That was not a good time, talk about feeling marginalised. To be fair the space Hillary avatars kick rear end lol, but yeah that whole episode was peak Western tankie America-splaining how actually the Warsaw Pact owned and everyone in Eastern Europe should just let Russia do it's thing because this is good for communism, even though Russia hasn't been "communist" for a long-rear end time. It never stopped being corrupt as gently caress though.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:29
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orange juche posted:To be fair the space Hillary avatars kick rear end lol seance snacks posted:For real? I always assumed it was Russian shills
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Apr 22, 2024 15:24
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Its just the natural result of echo chambers. I try and talk to buddies from Russia (and expats from) to get a sense of perspective and how the war is presented there. They are pretty open and have a pretty broad range of opinions. As a whole, you still see the same stupid "4 tanks destroyed by Hamas mortar!" poo poo that you'd see in NAFO-like vids except there its pointed at Russian tanks, and selective scrutiny is applied to help put the viewers mind at ease. Its something everyone's subconsciously prone to doing, but pumping the brakes to reassess is harder than just cheerleading. Social media has made it generally much worse.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:30
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So when the new aid package passes will it mostly be standoff weapons, artillery shells and other stuff or is Ukraine going to get more Bradleys and/or Abrams?
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Apr 22, 2024 15:36
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Kraftwerk posted:So when the new aid package passes will it mostly be standoff weapons, artillery shells and other stuff or is Ukraine going to get more Bradleys and/or Abrams? I saw the breakdown in an earlier article that I can't locate at the moment, but the answer is yes to all of the above. There's money for ammo, advanced weapons, and development.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:53
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seance snacks posted:For real? I always assumed it was Russian shills I know someone who has CSPAM brain about Ukraine,etc. despite never touching any of SA. He was nearly drafted to fight in Vietnam and developed a permanent mislike of the US. He will now only read news from sources broadly critical of it.
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Apr 22, 2024 17:38
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Kraftwerk posted:So when the new aid package passes will it mostly be standoff weapons, artillery shells and other stuff or is Ukraine going to get more Bradleys and/or Abrams? DTurtle fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 17:40
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orange juche posted:To be fair the space Hillary avatars kick rear end lol, but yeah that whole episode was peak Western tankie America-splaining how actually the Warsaw Pact owned and everyone in Eastern Europe should just let Russia do it's thing because this is good for communism, even though Russia hasn't been "communist" for a long-rear end time. It never stopped being corrupt as gently caress though. Oh i like mine quite a lot but the implication that Europeans were Democrat lackeys with no will of their own was a totally weird take from my perspective.
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Apr 22, 2024 17:43
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seance snacks posted:I’m American and I don’t know anyone who was/is pro-Russia, not that I hang out with a lot of chudsters though… I unfortunately know a number of people who have been fully brainwormed and think supporting Putin is left wing praxis. Some of them have retained enough of their mind that we can still hang as long as no one talks about politics, most have lost the capacity to socialize and are incapable of doing anything but repeating the dumbest poo poo they saw online today. It sucks. I haven't lost anyone to QAnon but it feels like a similar phenomenon, from what I've read of those stories.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:10
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The Ukraine invasion felt like the first piece of evidence I’ve ever personally witnessed toward horseshoe theory. I know both right and left wingers who seem to support Russia for different reasons. We’ve already covered the tankie arguments, but other people are still uncritical in their beliefs that any foreign policy decision America does is wrong or imperialist. So for that reason despite being left wing they support Russia or are against aid. On the right wing side many people view Russia as the poster child of traditional conservative values and a bulwark of white Christian nationalism. They see Russia as a counterbalance to what is perceived as excessive woke politics in America and view the culture as aspirational. They also buy into the idea that Ukrainians are a lesser ethnic group who deserve to be exploited.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:43
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There are some articles attributing Johnson's change in position to having met Ukrainian evangelicals, and been told by them how Russia oppresses Protestants. (There also has been a timely article in Time on that). Edit: https://time.com/6969273/russias-war-against-evangelicals/ Warning: some descriptions of torture. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 18:49
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Look, America is bad, so opposing America must.be good, because the alternative is that we are trapped in a hellworld of universal evil where America represents the best available option But if America is the best available option then my boomer dad was actually right about world politics and all these podcasters I keep donating to are just filling my head with bullshit to keep me donating, If any of that's true then I'm a huge dumbass and admitting that would be ego death In short, America bad
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Apr 22, 2024 18:49
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Kraftwerk posted:
s/exploited/exterminated/ See as evidence: the jokes about holodomor thread on SA (because it didn't happen, you see, but it should've happened, and they deserved it)
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Apr 22, 2024 18:54
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Kraftwerk posted:The Ukraine invasion felt like the first piece of evidence I’ve ever personally witnessed toward horseshoe theory. Honestly that series that someone posted months back on how it's just Lyndon LaRouche all the way down really put things into perspective for me. The whole series is worth a watch, I never really processed that the 2000's NATO expansion was mostly driven by hyper aggressive lobbying on Eastern Europe's part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OFyn_KSy80
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Apr 22, 2024 19:04
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Antigravitas posted:s/exploited/exterminated/ I suspect some of it may also be ideological offense taken at the decommunization that Ukraine made official.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:24
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The holodomor itself was punishment against Ukrainian farmers who were refusing to bow to the communist efforts to nationalize their farms. So in that sense, it very much fits within their ideology.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:32
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e: wrong thread
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Apr 22, 2024 19:37
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I suspect some of it may also be ideological offense taken at the decommunization that Ukraine made official. Ukraine and the Baltics are bad because they were nazis in the war, and because they don't like Russia up in their business that means that their governments are still run by nazis. That's as far as the tankie logic goes really.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:39
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Antigravitas posted:s/exploited/exterminated/ Mainly "lol, these people actually care about something and get upset about this. Let's make fun of it for epic pwnage."
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Apr 22, 2024 19:46
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Didn't the OP of the Holodomor thread get herself perma'd when she got caught buying some bigoted avatar for her and tried to blame others for it? Yeah nice people.
bad_fmr fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 19:52
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:I never really processed that the 2000's NATO expansion was mostly driven by hyper aggressive lobbying on Eastern Europe's part. Yeah, they knew exactly what was up and wanted to join EU and NATO when Russia was unable to block them. History so far has proven that this was exactly the right move from their side.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:54
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I know some people who looked at Russia as people turning against the evils of communism, so they must be good, completely ignoring that Ukraine was also part of the USSR  What I can't understand is how people are still using the "NATO started it" argument. It's been happening for two years now, we should be looking at what is happening now before we make a value judgment about who to support
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Apr 22, 2024 20:04
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Kraftwerk posted:The Ukraine invasion felt like the first piece of evidence I’ve ever personally witnessed toward horseshoe theory. from my american doing post-soviet studies angle, the war has further underscored what was kinda already my take on laypersons' understanding of russia: americans have gently caress all understanding of comparative politics and society and often use other countries as mysterious fairylands that we can project extreme versions of our own hopes and fears onto--they're all so far away and have so little impact on our daily lives that we rarely have any reason to try and understand them beyond a surface level decades of being the preeminent world military, economic, and cultural power doesn't really encourage studying the rest of the world, and so while we now live in a globalized world with greater access to news and culture outside our bubble than ever before, most of us don't bother engaging with it, and unlike many other countries virtually none of us do so out of necessity granted, people with extreme views would likely hold them even if that weren't the case, but there's more room to fill in the blanks with fantasy, and less likelihood the average person will encounter someone who has any depth of knowledge not colored by extremist fantasy Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:Honestly that series that someone posted months back on how it's just Lyndon LaRouche all the way down really put things into perspective for me i had not heard of this nonsense til recently when they came out as part of the local "we must recall the local progressive DA because CRIME" faction. some other goon was surprised the larouche people were still at all active, but yeah, the prototypical "shows up at council meetings to sit in front of the camera with a big 'wake up sheeple' banner, perennially loses in local political races, can be found in whatever flavor of the day right wing protest movement" lady i saw in that prominently announces her adherence to the political philosophy of mr larouche on her personal website
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Apr 23, 2024 00:47
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Kraftwerk posted:The Ukraine invasion felt like the first piece of evidence I’ve ever personally witnessed toward horseshoe theory. Syrian Civil War was another bumper crop of that. I knew a lot of right wingers who thought that undercover Muslim liberal nazi dictator B. Hussein Obama would do anything to put an Islamofascist terrorist in charge of Syria and Assad was just doing what was necessary to defend against that. There were also a bunch of dummies on the left who thought that liberal nazi amerikkkan dictator Barack Obama was destroying a glorious socialist state. Including having his fascist coup squad nerve gas themselves and their own kids in order to make Assad look bad, which only proves the depths to which the US gov will sink. Qtotonibudinibudet posted:from my american doing post-soviet studies angle, the war has further underscored what was kinda already my take on laypersons' understanding of russia: americans have gently caress all understanding of comparative politics and society and often use other countries as mysterious fairylands that we can project extreme versions of our own hopes and fears onto--they're all so far away and have so little impact on our daily lives that we rarely have any reason to try and understand them beyond a surface level To be fair, it's not unique to Americans. Orwell is evergreen.
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Apr 23, 2024 02:12
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Dopilsya posted:Syrian Civil War was another bumper crop of that. I knew a lot of right wingers who thought that undercover Muslim liberal nazi dictator B. Hussein Obama would do anything to put an Islamofascist terrorist in charge of Syria and Assad was just doing what was necessary to defend against that. holy fuuuuuuck quote:Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which, it is felt, ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied.[6] In 1927 Chiang Kai-Shek boiled hundreds of Communists alive, and yet within ten years he had become one of the heroes of the Left. The re-alignment of world politics had brought him into the anti-Fascist camp, and so it was felt that the boiling of the Communists ‘didn’t count’, or perhaps had not happened. The specific example of revisionism he uses to illustrate the point has since been revised into the memory hole, incredible shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Apr 23, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 02:38
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Dopilsya posted:To be fair, it's not unique to Americans. Orwell is evergreen. not at all, but insofar as americans are perhaps the most affected at present and the majority of the forums' populace, yknow, that what orwell calls nationalism i guess i would call great power parochialism if we want to get all ism-y, but it's something you'd likely similarly encounter in mid-1900s britain or, to some degree, contemporary russia (moreso soviet russia, now they have whatever weirdly twisted bent what comes between loss of empire and reconciliation with it)
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Apr 23, 2024 03:31
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Grand Fromage posted:I unfortunately know a number of people who have been fully brainwormed and think supporting Putin is left wing praxis. Some of them have retained enough of their mind that we can still hang as long as no one talks about politics, most have lost the capacity to socialize and are incapable of doing anything but repeating the dumbest poo poo they saw online today. It sucks. I haven't lost anyone to QAnon but it feels like a similar phenomenon, from what I've read of those stories. I think that's the thing. Both this and QAnon serve to destabilize society, and there are whole branches of Russian intelligence agencies whose role it is to spread ideas like these as widely as possible for that explicit purpose. I don't think either idea originated with the Russian troll farms, but they are as poo poo capitalized on them.
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Apr 23, 2024 03:36
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When it comes to our current chaotic lunatic world, the russians didn't start the fire but they threw as much fuel and car batteries and radioactive waste as they could on it. Duginism is basically 'flooding the zone' with so much incoherent crazy bullshit that it becomes impossible to respond to any of it. Like so much of its history, the russian government didn't invent this terrible thing but they found a way to make it so much worse.
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Apr 23, 2024 07:24
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