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Kchama posted:, just trying to take their land and make most of them leave! Going to obstruct you now with they can't go "nuh uh!" when they admit the ethnic cleansing inside the same sentence
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May 2, 2024 04:04
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god please help me posted:I don't know if this is the right place where I can ask, but is Israel really pulling off a genocide? This one person I know who typically has Bad Opinions keeps saying that Biden is supporting Israel's genocide, and that any anti-Israel pushback from the government is despite Biden and from protests instead of him. I replied at the time that Biden listening to the protests and chastising Bibi is typically a good thing, as there's no way that a Republican would ever care about what protestors think. This person is mad that Biden is claiming that Hamas is hiding behind human shields, and I was like "...yeah? Aren't they? Hence the hostages and making tunnels underneath a highly populated city?" They are and have been undertaking a genocidal approach to Palestine for a while.
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May 2, 2024 04:42
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They also, even when bombs aren’t falling at them at this rate, get their voting rights denied, their citizenship denied or rendered meaningless (”East Jerusalem” vs ”Jerusalem”), and their movement controlled or outright blocked. It’s ethnic cleansing and right now probably its most historically intense phase. ”The only democracy in the Middle East” that denies franchise for millions of people. Calling Hamas an evil prison gang and asking right after why there’s a big prison is very clever and I’ll steal it.
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May 2, 2024 05:14
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Stultus Maximus posted:Gonna go against the grain and suggest that Israel is not engaged in genocide. Israel does not have the goal of exterminating the Palestinian people. They'd be fine if that happens, but that is not the goal. They want them somewhere else. Jordan, Egypt, dead, doesn't matter to them but dead isn't the explicit goal. That is genocide my man. It is also extremely literally the attitude Nazi Germany held towards Jews. Lots of crackpot schemes to export them to Madagascar or something, and then when that didn't pan out, death camps.
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May 2, 2024 05:56
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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What makes the claim more tendentious than it ought to be is that legal formulations of genocide require intent, so Israel's lack of an official, formal, explicit policy of not wanting the Palestinians to exist anymore provides enough of a sliver of plausible deniability that people wanting to excuse Israel's misdeeds feel empowered to do so. They end up arguing that it's not a technically a genocide unless it's from the Genocide region of Germany, but it's enough to muddy the waters.
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May 2, 2024 06:16
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Stultus Maximus posted:Gonna go against the grain and suggest that Israel is not engaged in genocide. Israel does not have the goal of exterminating the Palestinian people. They'd be fine if that happens, but that is not the goal. They want them somewhere else. Jordan, Egypt, dead, doesn't matter to them but dead isn't the explicit goal. I mean I kinda agree with you, but 'we want to deport them but we have the problem that we can't deport them' is literally what led to the Wannsee Conference. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:45 on May 2, 2024 |
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May 2, 2024 07:43
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Going to obstruct you now with they can't go "nuh uh!" when they admit the ethnic cleansing inside the same sentence Yeah my point is that they'd goal-shift their definition that "they aren't trying to make ALL of them leave, therefore it's not ethnic cleansing!"
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May 2, 2024 08:41
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Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I was honestly afraid that the responses would be more hostile to me since I legit do not hear about the day-to-day coverage of the conflict, and also don't know about the history of the area. I still don't really know and plan to look at some subreddits that are covering the war, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't completely ignorant.
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May 2, 2024 09:06
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PittTheElder posted:That is genocide my man. It is also extremely literally the attitude Nazi Germany held towards Jews. Lots of crackpot schemes to export them to Madagascar or something, and then when that didn't pan out, death camps. And then there's the arguments that Israel itself is basically the Madagascar Plan whitewashed, allowing antisemites to have their cake and eat it too- treating Jews as not really citizens but just temporarily displaced Israelis. Hence the constant emphasis on Israel being 'the only safe country for Jews' in the entire world, especially from non-Jews.
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May 2, 2024 11:58
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Stultus Maximus posted:Israel does not have the goal of exterminating the Palestinian people. Big picture, I agree with you, but I think there is something important to point out: Israel, or certainly the hard-right that seems to be in charge, does not have a goal of "exterminating the Palestinian people" because their position is that there is no "Palestinian people," only Arab interlopers on land that is theirs by divine right. Alchenar posted:I mean I kinda agree with you, but 'we want to deport them but we have the problem that we can't deport them' is literally what led to the Wannsee Conference. This is true, and if Israel keeps trending in the hard-right nationalist direction (seems likely based on what I read about the attitudes of young Israelis), all the ingredients are there for things to get even worse than they are now. Maybe now, maybe 20 years from now, but the foundations are being laid, and nobody is really doing anything meaningful* to stop it. It's really bad! * American college students protesting and us complaining on the internet is not "meaningful." I'm talking 1980s-level South Africa ostracism
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May 2, 2024 16:37
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there is no meaningful opposition in Israel to their current policies of making the Palestinian people go away. its the outright popular position, the only debate two debates being "should Netanyahu be the one to do it" and "should it be faster or slower"
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May 2, 2024 16:49
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Alchenar posted:I mean I kinda agree with you, but 'we want to deport them but we have the problem that we can't deport them' is literally what led to the Wannsee Conference. Without a hint of irony Israel has been in talks with the loving Democratic Republic of Congo to resettle Palestinians there. https://news.yahoo.com/israel-secret-talks-resettle-palestinians-125417093.html
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May 2, 2024 16:49
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https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1786058581390786656quote:BREAKING — Turkey completely halts trade with Israel as of Thursday, two Turkish officials tell @FiratKozok Stopped clock, twice a day, etc.
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May 2, 2024 17:25
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I wonder what that means. Like, is the government somehow telling every Turkish company it can no longer deal with Israel?
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May 2, 2024 18:21
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Count Roland posted:I wonder what that means. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/turkey-halts-all-trade-with-israel-officials-say-1.2068142 Found something with a bit more information than a Tweet, but it seems to be literally that.
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May 2, 2024 18:29
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I don't know why it would be any different than the US embargo of Cuba or Iran, it's just Turkey isn't quite the global economic powerhouse their most fervent nationalists imagine they are. Erdogan is still a right wing reactionary shithead and doesn't give a gently caress about Palestinians though. He does this kinda poo poo every now and then as symbolic scraps for his lunatic supporters to distract from him loving up everything in Turkey. Just yesterday he had his thugs beat the poo poo out of socialists trying to hold a Mayday rally, as is an annual tradition now in Istanbul and other cities.
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May 2, 2024 18:40
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As far as economic effects: Before October 7, Turkey had decent relations with Israel and Israel imported a decent amount of stuff from Turkey, I believe mostly construction materials and food. Turkey is very close geographically, has a bigger economy than most of Israel's immediate neighbors, wasn't in a cold or hot war, and has lots of productive farm land and cheap (but decently skilled) industrial labor. So now Israel will have to import that stuff from somewhere else which will probably be more expensive, but it won't cause shortages or turn their economy into Cuba or North Korea. The war itself is already doing much more economic damage to Israel between labor displacement from reservist call ups, tourism going to zero, and nobody wanting to make new investments in an active war zone.
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May 2, 2024 18:52
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Something like this has happened before. I don't have time to check now but since years ago there was a big ship carrying aid to Gaza, I think Turkish flagged. Israeli commandos boarded it in the Med, before it reached Gaza. Turkey was pissed-- relations between the two countries only thawed in the past few years.
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May 2, 2024 19:28
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The Freedom Flotilla of ships with genuine humanitarian supplies that were banned under the Israeli blockade, which is designed to make life in Gaza barely liveable. The cargo had been inspected before departing, everyone knew they only had humanitarian supplies. Israel blocked their comms and attacked them in international waters. Murdering ten people and wounding dozens. Then put out laughably obvious fake recordings that were meant to be from the ships to justify what they'd done. Oh, and tried to pass off ship's tools as weapons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Raid Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 2, 2024 |
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May 2, 2024 19:40
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Geez I forgot 10 people were killed. Not that in should be surprised.
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May 2, 2024 20:19
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You guys keep spelling their name wrong, and Türkiye is going to cease all trade with this thread!
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May 2, 2024 20:19
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Dandywalken posted:You guys keep spelling their name wrong, and Türkiye is going to cease all trade with this thread! Well two can play at that game, we'll just eat some other stupid bird at christmas!!
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May 2, 2024 20:27
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I guess I'll have to eat a gvna for Thanksgiving instead.
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May 2, 2024 23:06
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Off topic but a fun Turkey fact I learned recently is that the color and gemstone turquoise is actually just an anglicized version of the French work for "Turkish". The Ottomans controlled all the known turquoise mines back in the 14th century or whatever so Europeans just ended up called the stone and then color "turkish". Same for the North American bird Turkey. Europeans colonized North America and saw a wild turkey and said "hey that looks like a bigger version of the birds the Turks used to sell us" (a Guinea Hen) and the name just became "turkey".
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May 2, 2024 23:56
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Dandywalken posted:You guys keep spelling their name wrong, and Türkiye is going to cease all trade with this thread! * Côte d'Ivoire has entered the chat
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May 3, 2024 00:29
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PurpleXVI posted:https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1786058581390786656 Atta Türk
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May 3, 2024 09:00
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Dandywalken posted:You guys keep spelling their name wrong, and Türkiye is going to cease all trade with this thread! The whole name change thing seemed like a sop from Erdogan to Turkish nationalists so pffff quote:“The main reason why Turkey is changing its name is to eliminate the association with the bird,” said Sinan Ulgen, Chairman of Istanbul-based think-tank EDAM. “But also, the term is used in colloquial language to denote failure.” https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/03/middleeast/turkey-name-change-mime-intl/index.html
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May 3, 2024 13:34
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Well the bird was named after the country, so now we will have to serve türkiye on Thanksgiving 
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May 3, 2024 13:52
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Tiny Timbs posted:The whole name change thing seemed like a sop from Erdogan to Turkish nationalists so pffff It absolutely was and it wasn't even a name change. The country was already called Türkiye, because that's the name in Turkish. All the passports and government documents already had that name unless they were in a non-Turkish language. It's like Germany going around and telling everyone "no no no no you have to call us Deutschland in every language! Change all the signs and maps!" The UN and Google Maps were like "Sure man you can have whatever name you want on the big board it's cool," but it wasn't a Bombay or Burma situation where colonial powers imposed a different name on a place. It's just nationalists getting bizarrely mad about the fact that different languages have different words for things.
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May 3, 2024 17:50
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Turkey→Türkiye→Türkiyeezy→Ye
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May 3, 2024 17:56
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i submit that we rename the US to Amerika Birleşik Devletleri
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May 3, 2024 20:16
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:i submit that we rename the US to Amerika Birleşik Devletleri Can't, there's Armenians in there. Them's clearly the rules
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May 3, 2024 20:40
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Count Roland posted:I wonder what that means. Pretty much. We went through this recently with Russia, spent a lot of time documenting to the government and to customers / suppliers that none of my ship was going to or came from Russia.
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May 3, 2024 22:10
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Haaretz is [reporting](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000) that Hamas has accepted a US-backed ceasefire deal, but that "an Israeli official" has indicated they will accept no deal and intend to assault Rafah. Guess we get to see whether Biden's vaunted "bear hug" will actually coerce Bibi towards ending the violence. Story hasn't propagated much yet, so hard to say how much of it is hearsay. It does align with my understanding, though, that Biden's been trying to fast-track a deal in hopes of having the whole thing blow over by November. My worry is that this fundamentally doesn't align with Bibi's interests, which needs the siege to continue to maintain his tenuous grip on power (to say nothing of the Israeli right preferring a GOP president who will back their genocide to the hilt).
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May 4, 2024 15:47
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Israeli journalists have been coming out to say that the 'Israeli official' is guess who? None other than Netanyahu himself. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/journalists-say-netanyahu-is-the-diplomatic-official-issuing-statements-on-hostage-talks/
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May 5, 2024 01:01
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Jesus gently caress did I really try to use markdown in my post? Don't phone post from bed while sick and barely awake, kids. But yeah, it's been interesting to see liberal Israelis taking up how this has to be the end of Bibi ("for real this time"). Polls do ostensibly show him as deeply unpopular, but I'm deeply skeptical he's going anywhere voluntarily or anyone will make him.
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May 5, 2024 01:36
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Cugel the Clever posted:Don't phone post from bed while sick and barely awake, kids. you got it, i'll mark that down
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