|
Elephant Ambush posted:This seems like a defeatist attitude. Based on this logic why try to ever make anything better? The answer is that the fight to make things better never ends. Politics is never solved, you never get to go chill on your porch like Thanos, you have to show up every election, forever. That's just how it is. Elephant Ambush posted:Also, hear me out here, it would be a great idea if Democrats did stuff that simply prevented fash from ever getting a majority ever again, Such as? Also challenge mode: it has to adhere to the rule of law and the principles of liberal democracy. https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1781338536702050801 Goddamn that sailed. zoux fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Apr 19, 2024 |
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
zoux posted:Also challenge mode: Don't you have a bad history with these? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:06
|
|
|
zoux posted:The answer is that the fight to make things better never ends. Politics is never solved, you never get to go chill on your porch like Thanos, you have to show up every election, forever. That's just how it is. Snapping your fingers and dusting the 50% of Americans that are screaming fascists would immediately save the world, though. zoux posted:Also challenge mode: it has to adhere to the rule of law and the principles of liberal democracy. Then we're hosed. Liberal democracy cannot defeat internal fascism at its current scale. The cancer has metastasized, the immune system is overwhelmed. Even hard-core Dem supporters can't see a way out other than "win every election for the next 50 years, and maybe not even then".
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:09
|
|
|
Cimber posted:While we are venturing into deeply hypothetical territory at this point, I don't believe that even having a federal law would stop an activist court from overturning it on flimsy grounds. We've seen time and time again that the current conservative USSC will use the most tortured logic to arrive at the point they want to get at. It's worth remembering that the Supreme Court isn't the only entity that can get rid of laws! Congress can just repeal laws whenever it wants to. And when the GOP put Gorsuch and Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court, they also controlled the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. And with things not looking particularly rosy in 2024, there's a real chance that they'll take the trifecta again. If a "codify Roe" law had been on the books in 2016, the GOP could have repealed it just about anytime from 2016-2018, the very same period when they were putting anti-abortion judges on the Supreme Court. Similarly, if the GOP takes the House, Senate, and Presidency in November, and manages to get their party lined up behind an abortion-ban bill, then they would be perfectly capable of banning abortion nationally. The only thing a "codify Roe" bill would do at that point would be to require the GOP to add "and the 'codify Roe' bill from last decade is hereby repealed" to whatever horrible abortion ban bill they end up writing. Of course, back in the Obama days, no one thought the GOP would dare to actually pass a national abortion ban bill, and so the expectation was that one would have codifying Roe would have some protective power because the GOP would have too many turncoats refusing to support any attempt to repeal that bill. That's how PPACA survived, for example; just enough senators were unwilling to actually put their hands on that hot stove. But it doesn't necessarily look like the GOP has that much sense left these days. Elephant Ambush posted:This seems like a defeatist attitude. Based on this logic why try to ever make anything better? The Democrats still should have tried to codify Roe, which they could have probably done. But instead they just used it as a fund raising tool and to my knowledge it hasn't been a talking point or campaign promise by Biden or any of other major Democrat candidate In the lead-up to the midterms, Biden publicly promised that if voters put enough pro-abortion Dems into Congress to pass a codify-Roe bill, he would have one passed and signed by the end of January 2023. Unfortunately, voters gave the House majority to the GOP instead, and that GOP House majority has now openly endorsed a national 15-week abortion ban. And the Dems didn't gain enough Senate seats to overcome Manchin and Sinema's opposition either. In 2024, the Biden campaign has been hammering quite heavily on abortion, and has repeatedly and consistently stated that Congress should codify Roe. It's not like he's hiding it away only in minor campaign stuff no one watches, either. His 2024 SOTU had a whole segment on reproductive rights, which ended with him once more publicly asking America to send him a pro-choice Congress so that he can codify Roe, which he explicitly promised to do. If it hasn't been a talking point or campaign promise to your knowledge, then that's a problem with your knowledge, because Biden has been quite open and loud about how much he wants a "codify Roe" bill on his desk.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:12
|
|
|
The Thanos analogy actually works very well because after he snapped and relaxed his opponents did find a way to regroup and undo it
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:12
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Even hard-core Dem supporters can't see a way out other than "win every election for the next 50 years, and maybe not even then". If you are advocating any form of totalitarianism, I don't think there's much to discuss. That's anathema to 99 percent of Americans, and to me personally.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:13
|
|
|
zoux posted:The answer is that the fight to make things better never ends. Politics is never solved, you never get to go chill on your porch like Thanos, you have to show up every election, forever. That's just how it is. Between the Israel funding and the Tiktok ban, there's a little something for everyone!
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:20
|
|
|
koolkal posted:Making this post so I can quote it in a few years when Democrats start opposing abortion ballot measures because it starts hurting their turnout when they can't hang the carrot of a federal abortion-protection law over voters who can instead guarantee abortions for themselves within their state. What makes this whole genre of claim, not just this specific one, particularly weasely is what zero-stakes betting it is. It's got that whole bold pointing-to-the-stands-where-you're-going-to-hit-the-ball thing without the possibility of striking out, since it's not like there's any failure possible for as big a claim as it is. No one's going to remember it enough to look back and call it out when nothing of the sort happens. If they do, it's easy to just say "Sure, it hasn't happened yet" or "check out this stalker rooting through my years-old posts to find something to be mad at." The chance of winning the bullshitter lottery and claiming to be the Cassandra who was mocked at the time is just a side benefit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:26
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Snapping your fingers and dusting the 50% of Americans that are screaming fascists would immediately save the world, though. That's why I'm proud to support managed democracy and Super-Earth. Only the Helldivers can truly protect our way of life!
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:29
|
|
|
but seriously if you're looking for the perfect form of government it's called an immortal philosopher king and Plato came up with that 2400 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:31
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:Then we're hosed. Liberal democracy cannot defeat internal fascism at its current scale. The cancer has metastasized, the immune system is overwhelmed. We’ve previously confronted and successfully faced these problems in the past.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
koolkal posted:Between the Israel funding and the Tiktok ban, there's a little something for everyone! Is the Tiktok ban back in that bill? I thought that died.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:34
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:We’ve previously confronted and successfully faced these problems in the past. In the past these problems spanned decades due to ultra conservative strangleholds on SCOTUS.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:35
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:We’ve previously confronted and successfully faced these problems in the past. this is not a call to action
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:40
|
|
|
Germany has the Network Enforcement Act, Section 130, and Sections 86 and 86a and has not become a totalitarian state. The US refuses to even nibble around the edges of fascist organizing, instead, explicitly protecting it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:46
|
|
|
Doctor Yiff posted:Germany has the Network Enforcement Act, Section 130, and Sections 86 and 86a and has not become a totalitarian state. The US refuses to even nibble around the edges of fascist organizing, instead, explicitly protecting it. AfD is also currently polling as the second-most popular party in the country so you know let's not be too hasty here
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:50
|
|
|
Sure. I'm more pointing out that there are more than 'fascism but the people I like are doing it' and 'bat a thousand on all elections forever' options.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:52
|
|
|
Doctor Yiff posted:Germany has the Network Enforcement Act, Section 130, and Sections 86 and 86a and has not become a totalitarian state. The US refuses to even nibble around the edges of fascist organizing, instead, explicitly protecting it. I think Germany is a bad example to bring up as they are pretty pro fascist and use state power and authority to imprison or expel people speaking out against fascism German police shut down pro-Palestinian conference www.dw.com posted:German police braced for spontaneous protests on Saturday after they shut down what was to have been a three-day conference of pro-Palestinian activists in the German capital. MERA25 condemns Germany’s authoritarian turn: German government caught lying about ban on Yanis Varoufakis - DiEM25 Communications  diem25.org - Thu, 18 Apr 2024 posted:In the wake of the cancelled Palestine Congress last weekend, the German Ministry of the Interior has grossly overstepped its authority by imposing an undemocratic ban on the Greek economist, politician and MERA25 Greece political party leader, Yanis Varoufakis. Furthermore, the German government issued a series of contradictory statements on the ban to deter and intimidate him from speaking at the Palestine Congress.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:53
|
|
|
RBA Starblade posted:Is the Tiktok ban back in that bill? I thought that died. You're thinking of the old bill that is (apparently) dead in the Senate. The bill they are talking about was introduced two days ago. It does not read to me like this was actually attaching the Tiktok ban to the foreign aid bills. They just used one vote to agree to consider the separate bills.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:54
|
|
|
eviltastic posted:You're thinking of the old bill that is (apparently) dead in the Senate. The bill they are talking about was introduced two days ago. Gotcha, I thought he was saying it was added as a rider or amendment or something
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:55
|
|
|
World Famous W posted:some of the major fascists were beat by bombs not ballots We have forgotten what it took and have lied to ourselves collectively about even the foundational ideas of how we respond. We have been stupid and naive. Even your glib response assumes those national self deceptions. Did I assert ballots alone were adequate? You assumed that. Fart Amplifier posted:In the past these problems spanned decades due to ultra conservative strangleholds on SCOTUS. The internal fight against fascism taking our democracy will be for the rest of our lives, and it will continue after we are gone. The lie is that we came to believe that it could be paused.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:57
|
|
|
zoux posted:Such as? Also challenge mode: it has to adhere to the rule of law and the principles of liberal democracy. The only non-violent way fascists can reliably be defeated: Abandoning the neoliberalism that creates the conditions for fascism. If material conditions are rising instead of declining, fascists lose their ability to recruit by scapegoating. Its harder to get people to rock the boat when things are consistently breaking their way. The law question is trickier because our systems and legal framework were built to empower the capitalist class and prevent this exact thing from happening. Democrats cannot create a system where their voters and donors both win, one has to lose.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:58
|
|
|
Doctor Yiff posted:Sure. I'm more pointing out that there are more than 'fascism but the people I like are doing it' and 'bat a thousand on all elections forever' options. In fact, few people are even claiming the latter is absolutely necessary in any long term. A few decisive defeats of the fascist faction and getting some more of the courts back can absolutely reduce the stakes of individual elections, provided there's not like some absolute red blowout. If all the elections remain grindingly close and the Democratic majorities razor-thin though? That's a a much longer fight..
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 17:59
|
|
|
eviltastic posted:You're thinking of the old bill that is (apparently) dead in the Senate. The bill they are talking about was introduced two days ago. It's essentially the same bill as before with some minor tweaks like giving Tiktok 1 year instead of 6 months to sell. RBA Starblade posted:Gotcha, I thought he was saying it was added as a rider or amendment or something It is essentially a rider since the bill it's attached to also includes things like Iran sanctions and some Russian poo poo. There are 4 bills, 3 are aid to Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan, and the 4th is this clusterfuck. mawarannahr posted:I think Germany is a bad example to bring up as they are pretty pro fascist and use state power and authority to imprison or expel people speaking out against fascism Video - https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000009412212/palestine-conference-berlin.html Sending in police because there's a chance someone may say something wrong is not fashy at all. Although I do worry they did not send enough police.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:01
|
|
|
koolkal posted:It's essentially the same bill as before with some minor tweaks like giving Tiktok 1 year instead of 6 months to sell. In my opinion, this is one of the most glaring red flags that Democrats are not serious about combating fascism. They are locking arms with Republicans in attacking a platform because its a hub of leftist thought/advocacy while shooting their foot off with the under-40 demographic for potentially decades. Its completely antithetical to the sales pitch that Democrats are a firewall to a right-wing takeover.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:08
|
|
|
Neat Bee posted:In my opinion, this is one of the most glaring red flags that Democrats are not serious about combating fascism. They are locking arms with Republicans in attacking a platform because its a hub of leftist thought/advocacy while shooting their foot off with the under-40 demographic for potentially decades. Its completely antithetical to the sales pitch that Democrats are a firewall to a right-wing takeover. Yeah thats right they aren't serious because this reason you just imagined. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:10
|
|
|
The most basic of hate-speech or incitement of hatred would be a start, even ones with a very high bar to clear. Plenty of non-US countries that I don't think would be contested as liberal democracies have them unless someone is prepared to argue like, Canada or Iceland are totalitarian dictatorships.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:14
|
|
|
https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/handle/1794/27281 Real “hub of leftist thought” they got there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:17
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Yeah thats right they aren't serious because this reason you just imagined. Please explain how Democrats can act as a firewall to fascism if they can't win because they burned their support with gen-z and millennials. I don't think we need to debate why leftist advocacy would combat fascism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:17
|
|
|
Neat Bee posted:Please explain how Democrats can act as a firewall to fascism if they can't win because they burned their support with gen-z and millennials. They aren't attacking Tiktok because its the hub of leftism or whatever conspiracy theory nonsense you have come up with. Also if leftist success is dependent on a random app it's doomed anyway.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
Doctor Yiff posted:'bat a thousand on all elections forever' options. All you have to do to be alive today is to be part of an unbroken string of organisms managed to avoid ever losing (dying before they could produce), even once, in 3.5 billion years. You, personally, will continue to stay alive only so long as you "continue to bat a thousand". Unfortunately, this is the reality of most things. They exist until they are destroyed, and keeping them alive means constant struggle. Ironically, politics is one of the few fields that is often a bit more lenient, since its a bit more of an ecosystem than an organism. The fascists actually have to win many different times in many different elections in many different places in order to take over. Your political faction can lose many elections, especially if they are elections to people who also aren't fascists, without risk of destruction. And if we did fall to the fascists, the fascists too might eventually fall and allow us what remains to build back up again - but even if it was that we had to "bat a thousand forever", wouldn't that just make it all the more important to keep fighting? There's no alternative solution I'm seeing you proposing that somehow survives a fascist takeover.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:21
|
|
|
Yeah any sort of violent revolution has a huge chance of the fascists just being in total control, I mean have any revolutions/civil wars lead to this dreamt of leftist utopia?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:23
|
|
|
I'm answering the question 'what are possible methods to combat fascism compatible with liberal democracy and the rule of law' if you want to type paragraphs of nonsense that pretend I said 'this solves fascism forever', uh, okay?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
I don’t know what the impact will be, but I can’t imagine how banning TikTok will help the democrats. A lot of them, including Biden, used it to reach voters, but now they’re vilifying it for no good reason. I can see most people move on from TikTok to something else, but I bet a lot of liberal and left-leaning people will feel salty about how the democrats took away their circus. Then you factor in the context of the moment and some will feel that our government is more concerned with TikTok than a genocide being committed by an ally
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:They aren't attacking Tiktok because its the hub of leftism or whatever conspiracy theory nonsense you have come up with. Also if leftist success is dependent on a random app it's doomed anyway. Right, they're attacking Tiktok because its a hub of leftism AND its eating American companies' lunch. Edit: I don't think leftist success is dependent on one app, but can we really afford to be throwing away tools? 
Neat Bee fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Apr 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:27
|
|
|
theCalamity posted:I don’t know what the impact will be, but I can’t imagine how banning TikTok will help the democrats. A lot of them, including Biden, used it to reach voters, but now they’re vilifying it for no good reason. I can see most people move on from TikTok to something else, but I bet a lot of liberal and left-leaning people will feel salty about how the democrats took away their circus. Then you factor in the context of the moment and some will feel that our government is more concerned with TikTok than a genocide being committed by an ally it's gonna be sold to an american company and will likely not substantively change and everyone will forget a week later that it even changed hands
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:27
|
|
|
It's cool how Democrats are all powerful but also incompetent
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:29
|
|
|
Riptor posted:it's gonna be sold to an american company and will likely not substantively change and everyone will forget a week later that it even changed hands One of the ByteDance investors said the government is trying to force a sale, but ByteDance would just shutter the U.S. operation rather than sell. The U.S. part is a very small part of the overall business and isn't profitable. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/03/22/bytedance-investor-mitchell-green-we-would-not-sell-even-if-tiktok-was-banned.html Could be gamesmanship on his part, but if the politicians are expecting a sale so they won't get any blowback from a closing, they may be in for a rude awakening.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:31
|
|
|
Neat Bee posted:I don't think we need to debate why leftist advocacy would combat fascism. Nah, show your work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
Riptor posted:it's gonna be sold to an american company and will likely not substantively change and everyone will forget a week later that it even changed hands This is a pretty bold claim considering we just witnessed a radical transformation in Twitter from a sale which wasn't even outside the US.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2024 18:33
|
|