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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:My quick look at reaction videos and, my god, media literacy is dead. "I went to the dog park today and rolled around in the dog poo poo, and I cannot believe that dog poo poo smells as terrible as it always does. I'm very distressed and was not expecting this outcome at all."
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Apr 24, 2024 04:31
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A question that maybe book readers would know more, but why would Toronaga keep burning Anjin ship to prevent him from leaving? I know he was using him to confuse his enemies, but why not let the man leave or whatever after achieving his victory?
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Apr 24, 2024 04:36
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Miss Mowcher posted:A question that maybe book readers would know more, but why would Toronaga keep burning Anjin ship to prevent him from leaving? I know he was using him to confuse his enemies, but why not let the man leave or whatever after achieving his victory? He likes him: he makes him laugh, and doesn’t want his jester to go back to Europe.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:40
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We can only have a little a Sekigahara as a treat. 
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Apr 24, 2024 04:42
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counterfeitsaint posted:"I went to the dog park today and rolled around in the dog poo poo, and I cannot believe that dog poo poo smells as terrible as it always does. I'm very distressed and was not expecting this outcome at all." I have a morbid curiosity with reaction channels and how 99% of them can't grasp the notion that sitting there and saying, "What?" and "Who's that?" like an annoying first date is not exactly contributing to the conversation. Also, 45-second intros with travel vlog-style music. It's funny that none of them seem to take hints from reaction channels that have 300k+ subscribers, who do none of that. There is one channel that is two people just talking about the episode for an hour. Not really a reaction. They make good observations. So at least I found one. But they seem to have not reached episode 10 yet.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:43
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Popoto posted:He likes him: he makes him laugh, and doesn’t want his jester to go back to Europe. also prefiguring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
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Apr 24, 2024 04:44
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I think it's up to interpretation a little bit, but given the fact that the real toronaga pretty much shut off Japan from the outside world and it's influences, my take on it is that he didn't want anjin to race back to Europe and tell all the barbarians there how rich and awesome the Japans are. Going back to the map scene, it's the one time we see toronaga completely caught off guard with the revelation that the Portuguese have essentially claimed Japan as their territory. Keeping blackthorne in Japan solves multiple problems for him, and I also believe that he genuinely likes having the guy around.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:44
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Miss Mowcher posted:A question that maybe book readers would know more, but why would Toronaga keep burning Anjin ship to prevent him from leaving? I know he was using him to confuse his enemies, but why not let the man leave or whatever after achieving his victory? He wants Blackthorne to build him a modernized western-style armada to secure his naval power. Also Blackthorne barely survived the trip to Japan with five ships and a crew of over a hundred. Trying to make a return journey will 100% kill him. So rather than let him be an idiot and die, Toranaga's simply made the choice for him. Also Toranaga doesn't want to risk Japan becoming yet another battlefield for a bunch of dumb jackass white Christians, and there's a risk that if Blackthorne actually makes it home to England, he'll blab all about his time in Japan and how he got to Japan in the first place, and it's in no one's interest if a bunch of Protestants come flooding into the Sea of Japan from England and Holland looking to gently caress up some Catholic poo poo just like Blackthrone was originally coming to do, especially when Toranaga's new shogunate is literally about a lifetime's span away from kicking all the white people out of Japan and locking the country down to any influence from the West. E: beaten several times over nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 04:48
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Except for Dutch studies in Nagasaki.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:55
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Blackthorne is a westerner with extensive knowledge about the rest of the world who is not portuguese. Even if he's a dingus *and* a tom hardy impersonator he's still valuable as an advisor
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Apr 24, 2024 04:55
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Will Adams did spend the two decades he had left as a trade ambassador with missions to Macao and the Philippines. So there's that. But Toranaga/Tokugawa kept him on a modestly tight leash. Edit; or "Siam" and Indonesia. Wow the Wikipedia entry on him has been greatly expanded since I last checked a few weeks ago. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 04:58
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also his skills make him somewhat more of a high level civ advisor that can pop out boats or something.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:59
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Toranaga built up enough great person points to spawn a Great Admiral, why would he delete him like a turn later?
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Apr 24, 2024 05:26
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No Mods No Masters posted:Blackthorne is a westerner with extensive knowledge about the rest of the world who is not portuguese. Even if he's a dingus *and* a tom hardy impersonator he's still valuable as an advisor I could get behind this. If I knew a dude who was a really good Tom Hardy impersonator, I'd considering keeping him around too.
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Apr 24, 2024 05:39
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Toranaga: I will let you go home if you stop calling it "the Japans". Blackthorne: ....gently caress.
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Apr 24, 2024 05:41
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Babe Magnet posted:It also dawned on me during the credits that he tossed the necklace into the sea. he was only dreaming of growing old in england, my man's never leaving that island I would love if this was a riff on how the Ancient imperial regalia was thrown into the Sea but I'm sure it's not
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Apr 24, 2024 05:53
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The samurai fisherman speaking in accented English drove home how Mariko had mastered the language and the accent.
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Apr 24, 2024 06:01
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Wasn’t all the “English” actually Portuguese?
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Apr 24, 2024 06:16
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snoremac posted:The samurai fisherman speaking in accented English drove home how Mariko had mastered the language and the accent. I like how the show subtly piles on that Mariko has a genius-level brain for languages and strategic thinking. Then Ochiba just bluntly calls her on it.
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Apr 24, 2024 06:23
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snoremac posted:The samurai fisherman speaking in accented English drove home how Mariko had mastered the language and the accent. What does that say about her son's mastery? He had a British accent!
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Apr 24, 2024 06:23
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Rugikiki posted:Wasn’t all the “English” actually Portuguese? snoremac fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 06:24
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Mantle posted:What does that say about her son's mastery? He had a British accent! lol
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Apr 24, 2024 06:36
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Maybe they should have Hunt For Red October'ed it. Zoom in on Blackthorne speaking Portuguese and then switch to English as the camera pulls out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEvwbxcRaCQ
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Apr 24, 2024 06:36
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No Mods No Masters posted:I find there are not really as many great books about the sengoku period in english as anyone might hope but here are some starters. SuperTeeJay posted:‘A History of Japan’ by Richard Mason gives a broad overview and covers a lot of cultural history so it isn’t just a list of battles and big names. Thanks for these! Mason is free on Audible for some reason so I'll give that one a look first.
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Apr 24, 2024 06:38
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Negostrike posted:We can only have a little a Sekigahara as a treat. That battle was decided in advance by the politics, Tokugawa is probably the only commander in history to end a big battle with a larger army than he started with.
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Apr 24, 2024 07:19
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It's a fun trick how Toranaga is handled between episodes. Even though the surrender is clearly shown to be a ruse, between the diving scene, and access Blackthrone has to him, he starts to feel borderline down-to-earth. Which makes all the "no, this guy has all the power and knows it" of the finale bittersweet. He talks about Blackthorne more like he's a pet than a friend, even if there's elements of the later. It's a fun wake up call.
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Apr 24, 2024 07:31
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CatstropheWaitress posted:He talks about Blackthorne more like he's a pet than a friend, even if there's elements of the later. It's a fun wake up call. This is all conveyed as inner thoughts in the book, including the "He makes me laugh" sentiment. With a dash of, "Anjin is one of the few people who won't bullshit me. It's good to keep around a loyal vassal who has no filter." And the show did a good job of vocalizing this as the conversation with Yabu. "Show don't tell" thrown out the window, because that advice has lost all meaning.
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Apr 24, 2024 07:43
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Thinking back over the show, I'm probably a 'it-would-have-been-better-with-Sekigahara-included-to-some-extent' truther. That's not about needing flashy action sequences. It's just coming away from the series lacking the satisfaction of explicit payoff for story elements that were built up very well but ultimately never came to climax (like the regents' increasing unhappiness with Ichido) but also with lingering dissatisfaction over story elements that I think were honestly handled pretty badly (like Saeki - unless I missed it, I don't think the show ever established exactly when his huge army ceased to be a threat to big T, but presumably it either left some time during the mourning period, or the idea is that Saeki has implicitly switched sides by the time of the final council?) A lot of narrative information that the show spent a good deal of time investing the audience in - the threat of Saeki's massive encircling army and the question of Saeki's loyalty, the diminished size of Toranaga's forces, who has ownership of the cannons, the Christian bloc in Osaka - proved to be basically irrelevant to the final episode in favour of Ochiba's shifting allegiance and the fallout of the hostages being freed (and I don't think we really got enough time with either of these to feel the weight of them). There's a bit of 'ho ho, I suppose you Michael Bay-loving nerds wanted a big battle scene with katanas? You simply cannot appreciate the elegance and refinement of a quiet character-focused final episode which leaves you to infer much of what happens next' talk going on online, and I don't think that's necessarily fair to the audience. For all of its excellent character work, this was also an extremely plotty show which I don't think always managed its plot effectively, and by having a penultimate episode that explicitly shows Toranaga's former enemies coming around to his side - even if that means a more traditional climax than what appears in the novel - I think it could have swept away a lot of those issues, paid off its occasionally faltering narrative momentum, and given more weight to the final episode we actually got. Ultimately, it is narratively dissatisfying to end with Toranaga still hanging around on the beach in Izu waiting to accomplish his goals when we spent a sluggish mid-section of episodes waiting for him to get out of Izu and accomplish his goals, and I don't think that's evidence of superior storytelling so much as evidence of structural and budgetary issues which the show could never quite manage to resolve. grobbo fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 08:27
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heh, just realised the imperial clan in the show is called the minowara. Almost a portmanteau of Fujiwara and Minamoto.
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Apr 24, 2024 08:34
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grobbo posted:... Ochiba's shifting allegiance and the fallout of the hostages being freed (and I don't think we really got enough time with either of these to feel the weight of them). I mean, episode three is mostly about a daring escape from Osaka castle, episode nine has an entire scene of Ochiba practically confessing her sister-like love for Mariko and asking her to not do this, and Ochiba warning the council to stop loving up or else. And then a scene in the final episode spelling out how this all went down and what Ochiba wrote to Toranaga. As for action, with exception of the Sekigahara tease, the show had a good deal more violence than I think we're remembering. At least five onscreen beheadings. A whole bunch of horses and men chain-shotted. Mariko's stand in episode nine. TWO ninja attacks. Buntaro's last stand. Yabu's "bandits" on the way to Blackthorne's execution. A landslide. A boat race. A teahouse ambush. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 09:06
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I love a big ol' battle scene as much as the next guy, but if you told me I could have a Lord of the Rings level battle but that it would come at the cost of the scene of Toranaga reading Ochiba's letter and seeing the wave of relief wash over him and all the weight of years of planning and hoping and plotting and striving just falling off of him... then I'd save the VFX department a shitload of overworked and under( or just un)paid hours of labor.
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Apr 24, 2024 12:56
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I was actually happy we didn't get a battle. I'm not a book reader so I don't know how it's done in the book but I was In fact kind of dreading most of this episode would be a battle and would short shrift the characters in the process. I was pleasantly surprised.
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Apr 24, 2024 13:31
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Based on that dream sequence showing the armies gathered I wonder if they had the budget left to make a good looking battle anyway.
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Apr 24, 2024 13:36
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grobbo posted:A lot of narrative information that the show spent a good deal of time investing the audience in - the threat of Saeki's massive encircling army and the question of Saeki's loyalty, the diminished size of Toranaga's forces, who has ownership of the cannons, the Christian bloc in Osaka - proved to be basically irrelevant to the final episode in favour of Ochiba's shifting allegiance and the fallout of the hostages being freed (and I don't think we really got enough time with either of these to feel the weight of them). This is about where I am too. I read (well, audible'd) the novel a couple of years back so I can appreciate that the show was trying to do things differently, but I really feel like there should have been a few scenes somewhere in the middle stretch establishing the importance of the Osaka hostages. Really just more exploration of Ishido's changing/uncertain relationship with the other regents and Ochiba (who feels like a character they could/should have done more with overall). You don't even have to devote an entire episode to it, just a few more scenes here and there instead of backloading the importance of the hostages in episode 9. Maybe they did do this and I just missed/forgot about it in the interim, but I do feel that the show spent a bit too much time wheel-spinning in Ajiro. Definitely enjoyed the series overall -- it was appointment viewing for my gf and I. Dunno if I'll ever revisit it or really think about it all that much six months down the line though. HannibalBarca fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 13:43
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snoremac posted:Based on that dream sequence showing the armies gathered I wonder if they had the budget left to make a good looking battle anyway. They could just weaved in gameplay from this classic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun:_Total_War
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Apr 24, 2024 13:48
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snoremac posted:Based on that dream sequence showing the armies gathered I wonder if they had the budget left to make a good looking battle anyway. TV really needs to take a step back from the absurd expectations set by Game of Thrones and return to the production standards of the 90s Sharpe TV series, where all you need to simulate the Battle of Talavera is 40 uncomprehending Crimean extras and a smoke machine.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:00
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HannibalBarca posted:You don't even have to devote an entire episode to it, just a few more scenes here and there instead of backloading the importance of the hostages in episode 9. Maybe they did do this and I just missed/forgot about it in the interim, but I do feel that the show spent a bit too much time wheel-spinning in Ajiro. They definitely had a number of scenes making the point that Ishido's "guests" were maintaining his strong position, showing them attending plays and muttering amongst themselves about how they were prisoners in all but name, showing the one regent trying to leave and having him and his entire family wiped out as a result, Toranaga and his advisors discussing how there was little chance of convincing other families to his side while Ishido held family members in Osaka Castle etc. Ishido starting to stack the Regents with his own chosen people is important too, as earlier scenes had shown attempts to replace Toranaga at an impasse between the four remaning regents until Ochiba came to guide Ishido, the one regent was killed and Ishido was basically in his ascendancy from that point forward until Mariko showed up and rap battled him into oblivion.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:08
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I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever someone give it to me in post-form thanks
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Apr 24, 2024 14:31
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Chadzok posted:I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever I was genuinely expecting one of those "what happened next" cards you always see in docudramas.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:49
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Chadzok posted:I wanted a montage of what happened to everyone's real-life equivalents and a "Christianity was banned within X years" or whatever The bans started only a dozen years after the show and by 1638 they got hadoukened back to the shadows.
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Apr 24, 2024 14:53
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