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harper is bisexual posted:There's no reason to 'argue' with people who are so rude and out of touch that they talk about "invisible sky wizards" or whatever. It'd be like saying "hey, why shouldn't I be racist?" and then referring to various peoples as slurs. It makes you look like an idiot. I didn't whine when you insinuated that all atheists were pedophiles, did I? But perhaps that's because I don't need to distract my interlocutor from my lack of reasonable, coherent arguments by pissing and moaning like a little baby. As I said above: you are not arguing in good faith. There's no reason to take anything you say as other than what it is: a low-effort troll. Even a modicum of work would let you rise up to the level of 'interesting Christian apologist' but you're just looking to score... well, whatever it is that trolls use to keep score. Thus, there's no need for me to respect your point of view; it's clear you don't respect it yourself, so why bother?
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Jun 28, 2014 00:55
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emfive posted:OK, if I want to write about the concept of metaphysical religion in general versus a non-metaphysical outlook, suggest a term to use when discussing the notion of a singular or plural divine entity as a general concept. (Maybe "divine entity" or "divine cohort" would do.)
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Jun 28, 2014 00:55
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harper is bisexual posted:Yeah I could see that, if you ignored the basic facts about his eternal perfect love, and had the equivalent of Ron Paul's view on what freedom consists in. I have no desire to be loved by a divine being in the manner that an owner loves his property, as a master loves his slaves. Maybe that is perfect love to you, but to me it is nothing of the sort. That you could suggest I have a Ron Paul view of freedom is laughable though, as your god is the very embodiment of property rights; he built it, so it all belongs to him and he has a right to do with it as he wishes.
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Jun 28, 2014 00:57
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harper is bisexual posted:I'm not going to play rhetorical games with autism spectrum disorders. So you're a Christian?
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Jun 28, 2014 01:00
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Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:00
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harper is bisexual posted:Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck. You too dude.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:01
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harper is bisexual posted:Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck. Uh-huh harper is bisexual posted:I thought religion was really stupid until I became a Catholic. Now it all makes complete sense. It's not really something you can argue about though because atheists have serious mental illness and are usually really angry about God. It's sort of like being a libertarian, atheism sort of makes sense to you at the time but after you get better you realize you were being an idiot. Anyway I don't claim to know a lot about it. Your first post in this thread declared that all atheists are mentally ill, sorry people said mean things back to you after you called them all psychotic right off the bat 
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Jun 28, 2014 01:02
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harper is bisexual posted:Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck. Good lord you're a lightweight if you think anything in this thread even comes close to being as hostile or aggressive as goons in this subforum are routinely capable of being. Have fun moonwalking out of the thread, to which I'm sure you'll not return to get the last word in.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:04
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Good lord you're a lightweight if you think anything in this thread even comes close to being as hostile or aggressive as goons in this subforum are routinely capable of being. Have fun moonwalking out of the thread, to which I'm sure you'll not return to get the last word in. right for example be glad your name isn't "brian boyko"
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Jun 28, 2014 01:05
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harper is bisexual posted:Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck. harper is bisexual posted:Hi, I'm a former "LF" poster named getfiscal. Good riddance.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:06
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Hello Sailor posted:Good riddance. 
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Jun 28, 2014 01:07
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Hello Sailor posted:Good riddance. Well I'll be damned.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:11
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harper is bisexual posted:Ok, well, you guys are getting very hostile and creepy and trying to gang up on me, so I'll bow out. Just remember that there are resources out there to help you. I'm not saying you have to talk to a priest right away. Think about going to a clinic and telling them about your problems with aggression and how you ridicule people for having different beliefs. Therapy and medications can help you break free of this sort of thing. I wish you luck. You must have quite the thin skin then, congrats on the weak trolling attempt. 
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Jun 28, 2014 01:14
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harper is bisexual posted:I'm not going to play rhetorical games with autism spectrum disorders. Better rule out the Priesthood then.
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Jun 28, 2014 01:21
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McDowell posted:This is the objective reality of biological life on Earth. I'm sorry I missed this reply on my first pass. I don't understand how it's possible to be comfortable with this "fact". Raskolnikov38 posted:So what if it is a self-deception. You're a smarter than average ape whose species invented computers and rocket ships and internet porn on a rock of silica and iron hurtling at high speeds around a ball of super heated plasma. Existence is absurd, pick some good morals to live by and enjoy your 70-90 years of life. Yes, but I can't take credit for any of those things, and even so, none of them even matter in the great scheme of things. It's all just an exerice in futility: we're designing really cool deck chairs for the Titanic or whatever. Why don't we just commit suicide en masse and save ourselves a slow, pointless death? And why do we commit the unforgivable crime of bringing innocent children into this pit of despair? ShadowCatboy posted:1) Even in the most brutal conception of materialistic naturalism, life is not a sequence of random events. Everything that occurs is the result of highly ordered thermodynamic processes, and the orderliness becomes more apparent as you graduate from the quantum level to the cellular, and from the cellular to the organismal. Cold comfort, to say the least. Even if there are observeable laws of nature and we're able to understand them to a great extent, I don't think that necessarlily has much impact on the way we experience things (or provides us with much comfort) as individuals. But maybe I misunderstood you. quote:This is only true for very naive definitions of "morality." Then by all means, educate me on the more mature and sophisticated forms, unless you consider it a waste of time. D1Sergo posted:The physicality of reality is a framework by which we create a system of meaning for us to experience for its own sake. In other words, human beings have needs, desires and emotions built into us like a playground to explore our reality, those things having been shaped by the boundaries of physical existence over the course of Time. Right, but Skyrim was created (coded etc.) by someone. The appeal of religion (however contemptible to the intellectually superior) should be instantly recognizable: Someone designed this game for us to play it, we'll be rewarded for completing it in the way the creator intended. Who What Now posted:1) How are you not horrified that desk lamps don't have souls*? Desk lamps don't think though, so you probably don't care. But what about dogs? Do dogs have souls? What about even smarter animals, like chimpanzees, ravens, dolphins, whales, or apes? How about much less intelligent organisms, like ants, termites, coral, or fish? Where is the cutoff for what has souls and what doesn't, and why? Where is it found and what does the soul do? 1) I don't mean this as an attack, but I can't see how your argument is relevant to my question. My question concerned you yourself, not how you feel about some external entity. How do you feel about the fact that your entire understanding of yourself as a "person" is complete nonsense, because you're nothing but a sack of moving, sentient meat that is bound to rot and pass into nothingness? 2) Is this your understanding of history or some ideal? When you say "beneficial", am I to understand that as a utilitarian consideration (beneficial to the greater good and so on)? But if our only way to judge is by "(Almost) Everyone accepts this" then how on earth can we evaluate the claim of a single dissident/heretic? 3) I might, if I'm trying to convince myself that it's anything but the self-comfort of the doomed. And what you mention thereafter is just the point I'm trying to make. Every pleasure you experience, all the good things in your life, the lives of your loved ones, will inevitably end in pointless suffering and then oblivion. What I don't understand is how you can accept these things and carry on with your life, untroubled by these facts, beyond some narrow hedonism (i experience pleasure, therefore life is worth living). But what if pleasure is purely negative: nothing more than the absence of pain? ShadowCatboy posted:Okay second go: How couldn't it? That wasn't a rhetorical question or some debate trick, it's a serious question. What you're accepting isn't that you're a "being[s] of matter and subject to material law" but that yoo're an insignificant worm with a lot of fancy ideas about itself. It's horrifying if you think that anything we do in this life matters at all and that we're anything more than walking fertilizer. If you can live with the fact that we're nothing more than that, then I unreservedly salute your massive, solid brass balls, but I seriously doubt that you've ever really considered the full implications of what you're saying. While I'm not perfect by any means (and thus sometimes look down on people even though I shouldn't) I promise you that I don't look down on (non-reddit) atheists just because they're atheists. I just can't understand them. Like, how (and more importantly, why) do you even go on living? ... Yes, you'll have to forgive me. You're right when you say that I simply accept these things as given. I guess that's just the prejudice of my position. But I'm sure that anyone, be they of another religion, agnostic or atheist, could understand what I mean by "the meaning of life". Even if they they reject mine, I'm sure they could provide one of their own. And, unfortunately, I don't think I'm up to the task of describing the meaning of life. That may very well be one of the most important reasons why I'm not an atheist. Buried alive posted:Just quoting the relevant portion, everyone else has responded to the other parts already. As for your first point, I simply disagree. Once you accept God qua God, how could you possibly argue that He doesn't have the authority to simply decree what is right and wrong? My argument was that atheistic morality is arbitrary and unconvincing (recognizing, obviously, that religious morality is unconvincing for an atheist...). It's basically self-deception, and there's no reason for anyone to accept it beyond the fact that [really popular and authorative] philosopher X argues for it. As for your last argument, I sort of agree. It doesn't "prove" the existence of God, or make it necessary. For me what you say means accepting either God or the "fact" that we're a bunch of lovely, sentient grubs who eat each other at first opportunity, and that our so called morality consists in our ability to find convenient post-hoc excuses for this behavior. !!!!AFTER THIS I WONT BE ABLE TO MAKE ANY NEW POSTS FOR LIKE 10-15 HOURS OR SO!!!!!
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Jun 28, 2014 01:24
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Sakarja posted:Yes, but I can't take credit for any of those things, and even so, none of them even matter in the great scheme of things. It's all just an exerice in futility: we're designing really cool deck chairs for the Titanic or whatever. Why don't we just commit suicide en masse and save ourselves a slow, pointless death? And why do we commit the unforgivable crime of bringing innocent children into this pit of despair? Because buildings really cool deck chairs and then dying is better than just dying. There's still enjoyment to be found in life, its not the neverending pit of despair that you're posing. I don't have an answer to the children question, snarky or otherwise, mostly because thats actually one of the minor reasons why I don't want to have kids, or at least not until full communism is achieved  .
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Jun 28, 2014 01:57
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quote:1) I don't mean this as an attack, but I can't see how your argument is relevant to my question. My question concerned you yourself, not how you feel about some external entity. How do you feel about the fact that your entire understanding of yourself as a "person" is complete nonsense, because you're nothing but a sack of moving, sentient meat that is bound to rot and pass into nothingness? 1) I'm just fine with it, because there's no reason not to be. Why should it upset my the same way it obviously upsets you (which was my whole point)? 2) Why do you think that the only way we can determine if things are beneficial merely by consensus? We have the ability for logic and abstract thought, and by extent we have ways to construct internally and externally consistent models, including models for morality that don't require consensus of the majority. You know, kind of like what you already do now. 3) I'm guessing your life must be total poo poo if you think life is nothing but misery and pain, but mine is actually pretty awesomely fantastic and I'm gonna keep living for as long as I can because I intend for my life to continue being awesome until the day I die. Maybe you should work on making your life more meaningful.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:02
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Of course things which are beneficial for humanity might be wrong in and of themselves in ways that might not be meaningful to an atheist.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:08
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isildur posted:I do, in fact, say 'invisible sky man' in real life, and that's probably the least offensive thing I say when referring to Christianity and its followers. Is that all you have to pull out of what I said? More cherry picking so as to ignore the body of the post. Well done; you 'win'. Dang you sure are a cool dude for automatically finding every Christian worthy of contempt.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:11
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Miltank posted:Of course things which are beneficial for humanity might be wrong in and of themselves in ways that might not be meaningful to an atheist. For example?
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Jun 28, 2014 02:13
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Sakarja posted:Yes, but I can't take credit for any of those things, and even so, none of them even matter in the great scheme of things. It's all just an exerice in futility: we're designing really cool deck chairs for the Titanic or whatever. Why don't we just commit suicide en masse and save ourselves a slow, pointless death? And why do we commit the unforgivable crime of bringing innocent children into this pit of despair? Well first off, most people are pretty inclined to stay alive (those who aren't inclined to staying alive die off early and don't pass down their genes). Furthermore, the vast majority of people's lives aren't pits of despair, but are in fact pretty decent and have plenty of moments of happiness and fun! It kind of sounds like you need to meet with someone about your depression, man.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:18
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Who What Now posted:For example? Eugenics comes to mind.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:22
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Miltank posted:Eugenics comes to mind. Why wouldn't an atheist be able to see that as wrong? I mean I am and I think forcing unwilling people to undergo sterilization is wrong.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:27
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Sakarja posted:I'm sorry I missed this reply on my first pass. I'm comfortable with it because all rational investigation of the natural world suggests that is the case. The counterpoint is a bunch of people with little books telling me to just trust them, when their religions are historically little more than movements to be co-opted by this or that regime to promote social cohesion. There's nothing remarkable there. As for #1, I struggle to see how it wouldn't be relevant. If we assume your position is correct, your God has doomed untold thousands of meat sacks to purposelessness and a terribly limited existence by your own reasoning. Like dolphins! About as smart as us, but no thumbs or complex vocal chords like us. Seems kind of lovely of God yeah? To get back to the original point, bearing in mind the complete lack of intrinsic meaning in life I'm comfortable imposing my own and caring about people on my own steam. People have done it for thousands of years, whether they realize it or not.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:27
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Miltank posted:Eugenics comes to mind. That's not actually objectively good for humanity though. It causes an enormous amount of harm to a huge number of people, it's pretty much the poster child for being objectively bad.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:32
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Sakarja posted:... I'm not sure how accepting God qua God gets you around the gap, or if it does, then how that does not apply to any other basis for morality. It's not just that religious morality is unconvincing for an atheist, it's that the morality of religion 1 can be unconvincing for religion 2, and all three of those stances are equally capable of saying the exact same things about each other. You keep bringing up how horrified you are by the alternatives, so you instead believe in the opposite. You know what that is? Arbitrary. It's been pointed out before, but you finding a particular conclusion distasteful does not render it false. Religion itself is not immune from the same sort of behavior. I don't like either of those things either, I think it would be great if there was a system of thought that guaranteed peace and happiness for everyone and that was so objectively true that nobody ever rejected it. There just doesn't seem to be one, and even if there is there's no guarantee that we'll ever find it, or even recognize it when we do.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:40
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With the express exception of Captain Maclane posting hurrrr's opus on Victor, this was a very bad thread."hurrrr[super posted:2[/super]"]
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Jun 28, 2014 02:44
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e: ^^^ no way man, this thread had former lf superstar getfiscal in a walk-on cameo role. GOLDMINE 5 5 5 MANBABIESEej posted:Dang you sure are a cool dude for automatically finding every Christian worthy of contempt.
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Jun 28, 2014 02:45
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