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This thread is meant to discuss "gender issues" and the advocacy groups associated with them. Be forewarned, this topic, like religion, is known to bring out some of the worst in people, so you can expect to see a lot of stupidity and toxicity in this thread. So, for those not in the loop, you are going to need to know the "factions" you will probably see in here. Feminists - The most common kind of person you see when talking about gender problems, feminists believe that women are systematically discriminated against and that western society has a "rape culture." They usually believe that any discrimination, stereotypes, and social pressures of men will go away if they can get rid of the discrimination against women. Feminist terms: Patriarchy - What feminists call what they believe to be the societal bias against women. Privilege - The idea that a gender/race/sexuality inherently has things better in life because of societal discrimination against another group, whether or not they participate in the discrimination or not. Privilege Check - Used to dismiss anyone that has an opinion on a subject because their gender/race/sexuality has privilege, and therefore they don't know of the struggles that females/minorities face. Objectification - What feminists call it when females in media are reduced to "objects." By this, they mean when women in media aren't so much a character as they are part of a plot device or plot dressing. Misogyny - The hatred of women. In modern feminism, this term is usually used to refer to discrimination against women. Rape Culture - The idea that our culture promotes rape and blames the victims. Victim Blaming - The idea that western culture blames rape victims for the rape because the victim had been drinking or because of the way they dressed. Shogunistic Women - Women who don't support feminist views. Feminists believe this is because the women have been indoctrinated by our patriarchal society. Reverse Sexism - What feminists consider what they are doing is. They believe they are undoing sexism, so therefore it is reverse sexism. Otherism - Seeing another gender as "other." Androcentrism - Favoring masculine traits over feminine traits. Hive Vagina - A term that mocks the idea of the existence of a secret cabal of women who control the world behind the scenes. This term seems to have fallen out of use, but you can find it in older feminist writings. There are a lot more feminist terms than these. These are just those I can think of on the top of my head. Men's Rights Movement - Often shortened to MRM, the people in the men's rights movement believe that there is a societal bias against men, that the court system discriminates against men, and that feminism doesn't do an adequate job of working on the male side of sexism. Note that there is a large difference between this and "Men's Rights Activists." Men's Rights Activists are generally seen as a more extreme version of the MRM. MRM/MRA terms: Misandry - The term they use to refer to the societal bias against men. MGTOW - Stands for "men going their own way," this refers to people that try to separate themselves from "western women" altogether. Anglosphere - Countries where the primary language is English. They are full of "western women". Incel - Short for involuntary celibate. Refers to men (or sometimes women) who are virgins, despite not wanting to be. Mangina - Slur used MRAs and MGTOW that refers to men who disagree with them. The Manosphere - Used to refer to the collective blogs, messages boards, and other sites ran by MRAs and MGTOW. NAWALT - Short for "not all women are like that." When they reject generalizations about women, they use this. More MRA terms can be found here. Be forewarned, that post won't be as neutral as I am here. Egalitarianist - Someone who believes that society holds preconceptions about both men and women, and that society needs to deal with the sexism of both genders equally. Generally, people with this view distance themselves from feminism and the MRM due to them seeing these movements as toxic. Note that the term "egalitarianist" is only used by some people with this view. There is also people (that don't have a name) that believe that sexism against either gender no longer exists in western society. My own views will be discussed in the third post. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 04:41
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Reserved for linking to good arguments/comics, etc.
MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 04:41
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Personally, I identify with the egalitarianists. I believe that there are stereotypes and discrimination against both men and women in western society. In order for things to improve, there can't just be a group advocating only for women or only for men. There needs to be a group advocating for both. I know someone will probably say "but feminism stands for both male and female equality." In definition, yes. In practice, no. I don't see feminists arguing to make it mandatory for women to sign up with the US selective service. I don't see feminists trying to get rid of the belief that men hitting women is bad, but women hitting men is OK. I don't see feminists trying to get men and women to serve equal prison sentences. The same goes with the MRM/MRA with women, but they usually don't pretend like they support female rights. Besides that, the toxicity levels of these movements is enormous. I could probably write an entire book on it. But I think a single example highlights big problems with these movements. Recently, on the show American Ninja Warrior, Kacy Catanzaro became the first women to ever complete a city final. The video went viral on YouTube. There were 3 kinds of comments. The first were from normal people. These people were either happy for Kacy, or, if a woman, felt pride. The second group were the MRMs/MRAs. They called Kacy's achievement a fluke, that she cheated, that she was lucky that the course was easy, or that her accomplishment was no big deal. This is pretty typical for MRMs/MRAs. The last group were the feminists. They said that Kacy was only the first woman to complete it because she is just the first woman that tried, They said that the patriarchy prevented all of the other woman from training their upper body. Not only is this belief insulting to Kacy, but to the over 200 females that competed before her, including former Olympic athletes, who I'm pretty sure weren't afraid to train their upper body. Oh yeah, you 200 are all lazy shogunistic women who didn't even try. Stay classy, feminism. Feminism and the MRM/MRA are like Fascism and Communism: technically on the far opposites of each other, but are more similar than they think. Recently, there was a twitter movement called "women against feminism." There is a Time opinion article written about it, and in discussing it, it cites many examples of modern feminism's toxicity. As for MRA toxicity, try this. Geez. The MRA is so toxic that even the Canadian MRAs are nasty. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 04:43
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MegaZeroX posted:Reserved as the shaming post Why do you think this is productive? I mean what's the aim here - do you think putting people in a box labelled "bigot" is going to stop them being bigots? Honestly curious about this.
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Jul 26, 2014 04:51
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Bigup DJ posted:Why do you think this is productive? I mean what's the aim here - do you think putting people in a box labelled "bigot" is going to stop them being bigots? Honestly curious about this. Sort of. At least get people to ignore them. But I guess that having their name in a box so people ignore them kind of defeats the point, doesn't it? Maybe I can retool it as a post that links to good arguments. That would be productive.
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Jul 26, 2014 04:53
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MegaZeroX posted:Oh yeah, you 200 are all lazy shogunistic women who didn't even try. Stay classy, feminism. Feminism and the MRM/MRA are like Fascism and Communism: technically on the far opposites of each other, but are more similar than they think. Okay, Trey Parker.
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Jul 26, 2014 04:53
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You heard it here first, folks: feminists don't care about men
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Jul 26, 2014 04:57
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The fact that the OP reads like somebody from /r/MensRights trying to seem moderate and open-minded doesn't bode well. And this...MegaZeroX posted:Personally, I identify with the egalitarianists. I believe that there are stereotypes and discrimination against both men and women in western society. In order for things to improve, there can't just be a group advocating only for women or only for men. There needs to be a group advocating for both. I know someone will probably say "but feminism stands for both male and female equality." In definition, yes. In practice, no. I don't see feminists arguing to make it mandatory for women to sign up with the US selective service. I don't see feminists trying to get rid of the belief that men hitting women is bad, but women hitting men is OK. I don't see feminists trying to get men and women to serve equal prison sentences. The same goes with the MRM/MRA with women, but they usually don't pretend like they support female rights. ...is basically just a big whack of standard_mra_talking_points.txt with a bit of "well I guess some MRAs take it too far!" added on.
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Jul 26, 2014 04:59
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Bigup DJ posted:Why do you think this is productive? I mean what's the aim here - do you think putting people in a box labelled "bigot" is going to stop them being bigots? Honestly curious about this. The first and third posts are proof enough that some people can't feel shame, and therefore won't be shamed out of stupid opinions. Like, have you ever done any actual research on feminism at all OP, or did you read a couple posts on Reddit and call it a day? Lets just start with your Selective Service example, feminists are still fighting for women to be able to serve in combat roles period. It's not feminists who are trying to keep women out of the military. Even after that, it's not anti-male to not fight for women in the Selective Service. Most feminists and allies I know oppose the Selective Service in general. Instead of trying to get women added to a system we oppose, we choose to fight to get that system removed for everyone.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:01
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Pope Guilty posted:The fact that the OP reads like somebody from /r/MensRights trying to seem moderate and open-minded doesn't bode well. And this... Not really. I personally don't approve of most people who identify themselves as MRA. To me, it seems the majority of them "take it too far." What exactly don't you like about what I said? A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Like, have you ever done any actual research on feminism at all OP, or did you read a couple posts on Reddit and call it a day? Lets just start with your Selective Service example, feminists are still fighting for women to be able to serve in combat roles period. It's not feminists who are trying to keep women out of the military. Even after that, it's not anti-male to not fight for women in the Selective Service. Most feminists and allies I know oppose the Selective Service in general. Instead of trying to get women added to a system we oppose, we choose to fight to get that system removed for everyone. Good point. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 05:02
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MegaZeroX posted:Personally, I identify with the egalitarianists. I believe that there are stereotypes and discrimination against both men and women in western society. In order for things to improve, there can't just be a group advocating only for women or only for men. There needs to be a group advocating for both. I know someone will probably say "but feminism stands for both male and female equality." In definition, yes. In practice, no. I don't see feminists arguing to make it mandatory for women to sign up with the US selective service. I don't see feminists trying to get rid of the belief that men hitting women is bad, but women hitting men is OK. I don't see feminists trying to get men and women to serve equal prison sentences. The same goes with the MRM/MRA with women, but they usually don't pretend like they support female rights. The selective service is effectively dead barring alien invasion or some dramatic huge breakdown. I imagine the opposition to expanding it to include women would be just as much "why do we have it at all" as it would be "WOMEN CAN'T SERVE IN THE COMBAT ZONE BECAUSE REASONS." I have literally never seen a feminist advocate for it being OK for a woman to hit a man. I have seen arguments explicitly defending a woman's right to physical self defense against a man, but this was more that case of the woman who got 20 years for a warning shot. That's as far as it has gone. I also haven't exactly seen feminists arguing for maintaining lengthy prison sentences for men - save, I suppose, in the sense that they would like to see rape trials have a lower chance of being dismissed for random and arbitrary reasons. In essence it feels as though you have had the word "feminist" poisoned for you by assholes, whose goals probably included "poisoning the word feminist like we poisoned 'liberal'," but have essentially a feminist perspective. If feminists do not focus on men's issues it is probably because the Supreme Court is not eagerly rolling back elements of legal equality for men for arbitrary and stupid reasons, at least at present.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:04
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I was going to do my favorite thing when MRAs come up and grab whatever the current "top all time" posts on /r/mensrights are, as a laughable parade of blindly hating feminism and disparaging women, but today everything seemed to be fairly mundane MRA stuff. So, yay for not being as incredibly awful as usual, I guess.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:05
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Nessus posted:I have literally never seen a feminist advocate for it being OK for a woman to hit a man. I have seen arguments explicitly defending a woman's right to physical self defense against a man, but this was more that case of the woman who got 20 years for a warning shot. That's as far as it has gone. I'm not saying that feminists say its OK for women to hit men, but rather that they don't seem eager to try to get rid of the stereotype. Like, why don't feminists make a campaign telling parents there sons to not hit either gender, rather than just "don't hit girls." The point for the list was more to illustrate that they need to work on both sides of the equation if we want to move toward equality. Nessus posted:I also haven't exactly seen feminists arguing for maintaining lengthy prison sentences for men - save, I suppose, in the sense that they would like to see rape trials have a lower chance of being dismissed for random and arbitrary reasons. Its not that they are upholding it, but rather not attempting to make even like a hashtag movement against it. Why not #judgesshouldjudgegendersequally or something? I mean, that wasn't catchy (since I'm not good at that), but something to that effect would be progressive I think. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 05:11
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MegaZeroX posted:I'm not saying that feminists say its OK for women to hit men, but rather that they don't seem eager to try to get rid of the stereotype. Like, why don't feminists make a campaign telling parents there sons to not hit either gender, rather than just "don't hit girls." The point for the list was more to illustrate that they need to work on both sides of the equation if we want to move toward equality. That's not any feminist campaign I can locate using my google search. It's certainly a meme propagated through our popular culture, and one of the more transparently enforced gender roles.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:13
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ikanreed posted:That's not any feminist campaign I can locate using my google search. It's certainly a meme propagated through our popular culture, and one of the more transparently enforced gender roles. Right. So I think that feminists, in order to deconstruct gender, should try tackling it. Isn't feminism all about trying to get rid of gender roles? If you are going to demolish the building that is sexism, you need to take out more than just one side.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:15
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We shouldn't make any changes that help women unless we simultaneously make changes that help men an equal amount. This is the fastest and best way to achieve gender equality.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:25
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Whiskey Sours posted:We shouldn't make any changes that help women unless we simultaneously make changes that help men an equal amount. No, but gender roles kind of exist for two sexes here. You can't just promote women doing "men things." You also have to promote men doing "women things."
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Jul 26, 2014 05:29
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MegaZeroX posted:No, but gender roles kind of exist for two sexes here. You can't just promote women doing "men things." You also have to promote men doing "women things." Are you under the impression that feminists don't do this? Or advocate for the abolition of thinking of things as "men things" and "women things"?
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Jul 26, 2014 05:32
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Yeah, this has really become a beat on MegaZeroX thread, but dude, there are self identified feminsts who do these things, but the academic idea has never been mired in this kinda pro-gender role stuff. Now what has happened in some totally serious, studied circles, is feminists making GBS threads all over trans people for trying to "take" a gender role they see as fictional. Those people are awful.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:35
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Pope Guilty posted:Are you under the impression that feminists don't do this? Or advocate for the abolition of thinking of things as "men things" and "women things"? I just haven't seen feminist activists actually work at promoting men doing traditionally female things. I've seen them approve of it, but not actively promoting it. Like, they actively make campaigns for women to not be afraid to do "men things," but I haven't seen any the other way around. Could you show me some examples? ikanreed posted:Now what has happened in some totally serious, studied circles, is feminists making GBS threads all over trans people for trying to "take" a gender role they see as fictional. Those people are awful. Really? I think I've heard of that, but I just presumed it was typical MRA BS. Can you show me an example? If its true, than that is terrible. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 05:40
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save xylo the effort and lock this poo poo early
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Jul 26, 2014 05:41
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I'll do you one better, a site that documents them. http://theterfs.com/terf-hate-sites/
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Jul 26, 2014 05:43
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MegaZeroX posted:Right. So I think that feminists, in order to deconstruct gender, should try tackling it. Isn't feminism all about trying to get rid of gender roles? If you are going to demolish the building that is sexism, you need to take out more than just one side. Of course it is understandable that this particular issue may loom large in your own experience, but your experience isn't really the point here.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:46
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ikanreed posted:I'll do you one better, a site that documents them. Wow that is terrible. I think I'm going to close the thread here, as it seems like this thread really won't work out. People keep assuming I'm an MRA, which I'm not. Sorry for any trouble I caused.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:49
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