|
Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 04:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 17:46 |
|
|
We have already started talking about the first sentence a bit, but before that first sentence there is the title, which is also noteworthy. At the time the book was published more of Joyce's audience, especially in Ireland, would have recognized it as the name of a somewhat popular folk song. The song is about a worker (Tim Finnegan) who falls off a latter while drunk and cracks his head, his friends think he is dead and begin to have a funeral for him, only for Finnegan to wake up when they pour whiskey over him. So it is a story of "death" and "resurrection" much like the core story of Christianity, as well as that of many the other "mystery cults" which existed during the period in which Christianity was born and which also worship deities that died (in some manner) and were reborn, Mithras, Persephone, etc. It is also more broadly a reference to the cyclic nature of history which underlies the book. And I think it is also reminiscent of the passage in Ulysses in which Bloom dwells on the problem of people who have been buried alive and the idea of a machine they could use to alert funeral-goers from within their coffin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 15:43
|
|
|
Bear in mind that unlike in the song, the title of the book is not possessive ("Finnegan's Wake"), but plural. If the book is to be seen as the dreaming night when compared to the waking day of Ulysses, how many Finnegans are there? Are we not all, in a sense, Tim Finnegan, having our dreams and our subconscious swirling minds assembled into the appearance of chaos, not unlike this, but which actually has a deep and interlocking form and sense that can be pieced together? Is sleep not a small death from which we are resurrected every morning?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 16:56
|
|
|
Spoilers Below posted:Is sleep not a small death from which we are resurrected every morning? That is a great point. And the process of awakening is often unclear. Sometimes it's sudden, but many times there is a slow process of waking up where you are somewhat conscious but also still somewhat in the dream world, you do not have a clear grasp of "reality" and the sensory input from one world flows into another in strange ways. The sound of a dog barking outside in the waking world has a different source in the dreamworld. I've had many times where in the early morning where I will be awake enough to look at my phone to check the time, but will then think of 7:56 and 7:57 and 7:58 as different "rooms" and think to myself "I'll just stay in 7:56 a while longer", which is the sort of logic that only makes sense in a dream. I think that sort of confusing transition can also describe how one cycle of history becomes the next.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
gently caress me I only just realized it's a plural and not a possessive. A declarative statement and not a modified noun. Joyce reaches out of his grave to tweak my nose again. How have I managed not to realize that for so many years?!?
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
I've finally started the book and I have to ask, on page 5 of my edition it says "Hohohoho, Mister Finn, you're going to be Mister Finnagain!" Does this mean that Joyce is saying that the Irish hero Fionn Mac Cumhaill is Finnegan and that he becomes Finnegan over and over again? edit: I got to page 6 and yes, this is true Smoking Crow fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 31, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2014 22:18
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm scared of this book I read it over the course of three glorious days with the help of a couple of bottles of jamesons and a lot of coffee and i recommend this schedule to anyone
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 00:52
|
|
|
Can never get enough of the Wake — already running a Wake group at my school and attending another in town and writing about the thing for my dissertation and so on and so on, but happy to lurk this thread as well and chip in where I can. It always makes me laugh when people describe the book as unreadable (or similar) because it's about the most obsessively readable book out there. I know people who have been reading it for 60 years or more. For a print edition, I really highly recommend the Oxford World Classics one, has a very helpful intro and short breakdown of the most generally accepted postulates about what's going on in different parts. Also since the whole thing loops around, and was written way out of order anyway, there's no need to start at the beginning, actually a lot of people who try the book run aground early on and never come back. There's easier entryways, such as the section starting on page 104, or the one on 196, or the one on 555. I would gently caution against overreliance on the Campbell Skeleton Key — not because all that stuff isn't there, but because it's easy to start thinking that stuff is all that's there, or some sort of root meaning to it all, when it'd be closer to say that it's the sheer proliferation of potential meanings, and the inability to settle on any single one, that is the "key" to the work. Really that's just all my prejudices though, the Wake is a book every reader ought to try at least once or twice in their own ways, especially if you can join a group to read it out loud while drinking. edit: also, as resources go, FWEET is pretty great once you learn a little bit about the book and have some ideas about how it works. elentar fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Nov 1, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 01:58
|
|
|
elentar posted:Can never get enough of the Wake — already running a Wake group at my school and attending another in town and writing about the thing for my dissertation and so on and so on, but happy to lurk this thread as well and chip in where I can. You have convinced me (the rest of the thread helped, this post just sent me over the edge) to buy this book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 02:18
|
|
|
mdemone posted:gently caress me I only just realized it's a plural and not a possessive. A declarative statement and not a modified noun. On the topic of the title (and this reiterative interpretation, this endless cycling of readings and this constant awareness of ourselves doing this is, in some ways, Joyce's greatest achievement here: it demands a new kind of reading, a new kind understanding, a new kind of epistemology and hermeneutics): it's made me consider the many valences of "wake": funeral party (as the assumed but erroneous possessive might imply), awakening, one's historical imprint or trail (e.g. as a boat leaves in water). And I take earwicker's point about reversing the primacy of Adam and its important connotations. What I was trying to say is that I think the opening sentence proclaims a strategy or process for reading; an endless, constantly backtracking, always reinterpreting, forever deferring one. It's interesting that one of the footnotes for commodius vicus mentioned Giovanni Vico; he apparently said something to the effect that his Scienza Nuova was the only book readers would ever need (I suspect I'm butchering the meaning here, but my reference book is far away and it would be unco fashious to move across the room to check). I get the feeling that finnegans wake could fill that role: be endless read yet different every time
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 04:09
|
|
|
Niric posted:It's interesting that one of the footnotes for commodius vicus mentioned Giovanni Vico; he apparently said something to the effect that his Scienza Nuova was the only book readers would ever need Yes it is from Scienza Nuova that Joyce takes the idea of the cycles of history, so Vico will be brought up a few times throughout the book (its Giambattista by the way) That phrase also compares said cycles of history with the swirling of the water in a toilet. Joyce was a big champion of toilet scenes in literature. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Nov 1, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 15:00
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:(its Giambattista by the way) Yikes, no idea where I pulled Giovanni from.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
It's difficult to overstate the weirdness of Vico's New Science. For just one example: he suggested the reason that the giants of the Old Testament got so big was from picking up nutrients by rolling around in their own filth. As Joyce connections go, it's also worth noting that Vico Road runs just south of Dublin, and offers beautiful views of the Irish Sea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
I've never read anything by Joyce before. Should I man the gently caress up and Finnegans Wake?
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
I went to buy Finnegans Wake but there were no copies so I got Ulysses instead. I wish there was a thread for that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 01:00
|
|
|
DisDisDis posted:I've never read anything by Joyce before. Should I man the gently caress up and Finnegans Wake? Definitely.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 01:05
|
|
|
DisDisDis posted:I've never read anything by Joyce before. Should I man the gently caress up and Finnegans Wake? See thread title.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
blue squares posted:I went to buy Finnegans Wake but there were no copies so I got Ulysses instead. I wish there was a thread for that. I started reading Ulysses a few days before this started, so I'm going to finish that first. So far it's pretty good!
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 09:53
|
|
|
DisDisDis posted:I've never read anything by Joyce before. Should I man the gently caress up and Finnegans Wake? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 11:34
|
|
|
I just got Finnegans Wake and Tristram Shandy in my delivery from amazon and I looked in FInnegans Wake and one of the first names mentioned is SIr Tristram so I feel I should read Tristram Shandy first just in case that is related and I can get this one reference at the start.
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 12:50
|
|
|
CestMoi posted:I just got Finnegans Wake and Tristram Shandy in my delivery from amazon and I looked in FInnegans Wake and one of the first names mentioned is SIr Tristram so I feel I should read Tristram Shandy first just in case that is related and I can get this one reference at the start. Tristram is a different spelling of Tristan from the Arthurian legends, particularly the story of Tristan and Iseult (his name is spelled Tristram in Le Morte D'Arthur). The Tristan/Iseult/King Mark triangle is a major theme throughout FW so that is a good one to be familiar with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan
|
|
#
?
Nov 4, 2014 16:29
|
|
|
 The Wake and a new sketchbook
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 02:55
|
|
|
I tried to read this after loving Ulysses and got to like page 30 or so before realizing I was just reading words. I have the Skeleton Key and started reading that as well but failed still. I guess I will try again along with the thread and hopefully the web annotations will help me through.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:I tried to read this after loving Ulysses and got to like page 30 or so before realizing I was just reading words. I have the Skeleton Key and started reading that as well but failed still. I guess I will try again along with the thread and hopefully the web annotations will help me through. Honestly, there's worse ways to start than just letting the words wash over you. Reading out loud helps a lot, even if it's just mouthing the words to get the feel of them. I still really like the Oxford intro as a primer, because it gives a sense of the most generally accepted propositions about the characters and the events of the book. But I distilled as much as I could into a 2-page PDF here: http://www.docdroid.net/kslh/finnegans-wake-in-miniature.pdf.html
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 21:51
|
|
|
Speaking of reading it out loud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kFqiv8Vww
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
What clashes here of wills gen wonts, oystrygods gaggin fishy- gods! Brékkek Kékkek Kékkek Kékkek! Kóax Kóax Kóax! Ualu Ualu Ualu! Quaouauh! Where the Baddelaries partisans are still out to mathmaster Malachus Micgranes and the Verdons cata- pelting the camibalistics out of the Whoyteboyce of Hoodie What the hell am I reading? Edit: spoiler tags in case the piece has plot significance.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2014 08:11
|
|
|
if anyone needs a little help to get going, 'A Manual for the Advanced Study of James Joyce’s Finnegans Wake' has finally been published in full, I think. 111 volumes and 26k pages, all available for free at http://editura.mttlc.ro/Joyce%20Lexicography.html
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
Burning Rain posted:111 volumes and 26k pages Jesus
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2014 19:39
|
|
|
Silly question: is there any point in trying to read Finnegan's Wake when English isn't your first language and there's no way in hell you can tell whether the translation is worth a drat? I managed to finish (translated) Ulysses and kinda hope that the feeling I missed everything important is what you're supposed to have at the end.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2014 13:26
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Silly question: is there any point in trying to read Finnegan's Wake when English isn't your first language and there's no way in hell you can tell whether the translation is worth a drat? I managed to finish (translated) Ulysses and kinda hope that the feeling I missed everything important is what you're supposed to have at the end. I've never looked at a translation of FW and I'm not sure how that would even be possible, considering a rather large volume of words in the book aren't really English in the first place. If the result looks anything like modern French or German or Spanish etc., the translator hosed up pretty bad. That said, there's no reason you can't read it in English, based on your posts you are fluent enough, but you will definitely need a guide.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2014 16:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 17:46 |
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Silly question: is there any point in trying to read Finnegan's Wake when English isn't your first language and there's no way in hell you can tell whether the translation is worth a drat? I managed to finish (translated) Ulysses and kinda hope that the feeling I missed everything important is what you're supposed to have at the end. Finnegans Wake is basically already halfway between English and a bunch of other languages, so try that first? There's tons of every Indo-European language at least, plus bits of many, many others besides. There was a recent book, Impossible Joyce, that argued all attempted translations should also be considered part of the Wake text, but whether you buy into that or not (I mostly don't, with a few reservations), it's still interesting as a limit case to try and see what strategies the translator used to try and render it into a different tongue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2014 18:44
|
|