One Nation Under God/In God We Trust

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WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

quote:

The words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and the phrase "In God we trust" on the back of a dollar bill haven't been there as long as most Americans might think. Those references were inserted in the 1950s during the Eisenhower administration, the same decade that the National Prayer Breakfast was launched, according to writer Kevin Kruse. His new book is One Nation Under God.

In the original Pledge of Allegiance, Francis Bellamy made no mention of God, Kruse says. Bellamy was Christian socialist, a Baptist who believed in the separation of church and state.

"As this new religious revival is sweeping the country and taking on new political tones, the phrase 'one nation under God' seizes the national imagination," Kruse tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross. "It starts with a proposal by the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic lay organization, to add the phrase 'under God' to the Pledge of Allegiance. Their initial campaign doesn't go anywhere but once Eisenhower's own pastor endorses it ... it catches fire."

Kruse's book investigates how the idea of America as a Christian nation was promoted in the 1930s and '40s when industrialists and business lobbies, chafing against the government regulations of the New Deal, recruited and funded conservative clergy to preach faith, freedom and free enterprise. He says this conflation of Christianity and capitalism moved to center stage in the '50s under Eisenhower's watch.

"According to the conventional narrative, the Soviet Union discovered the bomb and the United States rediscovered God," Kruse says. "In order to push back against the atheistic communism of the Soviet Union, Americans re-embraced a religious identity. That plays a small role here, but ... there's actually a longer arc. That Cold War consensus actually helps to paper over a couple decades of internal political struggles in the United States. If you look at the architects of this language ... the state power that they're worried most about is not the Soviet regime in Moscow, but rather the New Deal and Fair Deal administrations in Washington, D.C."

So both "in god we trust" and "one nation, under god" are recent inventions. It seems that many of the legal challenges against these phrases have come from atheists challenging the government's ability to generically recognize religious belief. These challenges have uniformly failed.

I'd like to take a different approach: these phrases represent a specific doctrinal faith and are not merely substanceless deism.

"In God we trust" denies my Jewish faith. The Talmud teaches, in the story of the Oven of Aknai, that the Rabbis were debating whether a particular oven was suitable for use in preparing food according to ritual law.

All the rabbis but one, R. Eliezer, argued that the oven was impure. R. Eliezer, however, argued that it was not impure. R. Eliezer, then said "If I am right, let the carob tree prove it," and the carob tree bent. The majority responds, "We do not accept legal rulings from trees." Then R. Eliezer says "If I am right, let the stream flow backwards." It does, with the same response. Then he sys, "If I am right, let the walls of the synagogue collapse." They begin to fall, but R. Yeohshua says, "If Talmudic Sages argue with one another about the law, what business do you have to interfere?" They don't collapse, but out of respect for R. Eliezer, remain leaning. Finally, R. Elizier say "If I am right, let it be proved from Heaven!" A heavenly voice says "Why do you argue with R. Eliezer, seeing that he is right in all matters of law?" R. Yeoshua responds "It is not in heaven." R. Jeremiah explains: the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai, and we pay no attention to a heavenly voice, because the Torah says "after the majority must one incline."

The Talmud teaches not to trust God, but to trust democracy.

Similarly, "one nation under God" denies my Jewish faith that only one nation - the Jewish nation - is subject to the laws of God, established by the covenant with Abraham, and passed down on Mount Sinai to Moses.

These phrases, therefore, establish a specific doctrinal faith for the nation, and are properly forbidden by the establishment clause. These statements go further than the weak Deism of the founders (e.g., "endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights").

# ? Mar 31, 2015 17:00

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 20:09

1994 Toyota Celica: Sep 11, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

Do you actually believe a river flowed backwards and a building started to collapse because a Talmud scholar asked it to, OP?

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# ? Mar 31, 2015 17:23

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

It wouldn't matter if it referenced a specific God or not, it still endorses belief of a god(s) over non-belief of a god(s) which is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Also of note that besides the Pledge and our money our nationally motto was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "IN GOD WE TRUST" at the same time as the other two changes.

However there are a million things far more important than this and I would rather my congressional representatives focus on those issues rather than what's printed on the dollar.

# ? Mar 31, 2015 17:28

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

zeal posted:

Do you actually believe a river flowed backwards and a building started to collapse because a Talmud scholar asked it to, OP?

These are articles of my faith

# ? Mar 31, 2015 17:34

1994 Toyota Celica: Sep 11, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

what's the allegorical interpretation of this, then?

Deuteronomy 20: 10-20 posted:

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.

19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they be not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

it's a good thing Jehova's an iron age hobgoblin that never existed, otherwise you'd be guilty of worshiping a real dick.

# ? Mar 31, 2015 17:46

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

I'd suggest replacing "In God We Trust" on banknotes by "Render Unto Caesar", so that at least it'd be appropriate.

# ? Mar 31, 2015 22:05

Arsonist Daria: Feb 27, 2011; ^{Requiescat in pace.}

Who What Now posted:

It wouldn't matter if it referenced a specific God or not, it still endorses belief of a god(s) over non-belief of a god(s) which is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Also of note that besides the Pledge and our money our nationally motto was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "IN GOD WE TRUST" at the same time as the other two changes.

However there are a million things far more important than this and I would rather my congressional representatives focus on those issues rather than what's printed on the dollar.

Considering mine are going to obstruct the democratic process until another white man is at office at the earliest, I'd take rolling back some silly meaningless legislation that annoys me while they're at it.

# ? Mar 31, 2015 22:07

old beast lunatic: Nov 3, 2004; by Hand Knit

This is a thread created by a jew complaining about money.

Also worth noting is that "God Bless America" was popularized by Reagan.

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# ? Mar 31, 2015 22:21

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

All the rabbis but one, R. Eliezer, argued that the oven was impure. R. Eliezer, however, argued that it was not impure. R. Eliezer, then said "If I am right, let the carob tree prove it," and the carob tree bent. The majority responds, "We do not accept legal rulings from trees." Then R. Eliezer says "If I am right, let the stream flow backwards." It does, with the same response. Then he sys, "If I am right, let the walls of the synagogue collapse." They begin to fall, but R. Yeohshua says, "If Talmudic Sages argue with one another about the law, what business do you have to interfere?" They don't collapse, but out of respect for R. Eliezer, remain leaning. Finally, R. Elizier say "If I am right, let it be proved from Heaven!" A heavenly voice says "Why do you argue with R. Eliezer, seeing that he is right in all matters of law?" R. Yeoshua responds "It is not in heaven." R. Jeremiah explains: the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai, and we pay no attention to a heavenly voice, because the Torah says "after the majority must one incline."

The Talmud teaches not to trust God, but to trust democracy.

"All right, Eliezer. The vote is five to two."

Not mine, but one of my favorites.

# ? Mar 31, 2015 22:28

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

Cat Mattress posted:

I'd suggest replacing "In God We Trust" on banknotes by "Render Unto Caesar", so that at least it'd be appropriate.

You jest but it would be way better and be and old timey wording for separation of state and church.

# ? Apr 1, 2015 02:08

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 20:09

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

InterFaced posted:

This is a thread created by a jew complaining about money.

You seem like a classy person.

# ? Apr 1, 2015 04:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > One Nation Under God/In God We Trust