|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_City_stadium_fire In 1986 56 football fans lost their lives and over 200 were injured when the stand the were in caught fire during a game between bradford city and lincoln. Within 4 minutes of the fire starting the entire stand was engulfed in flames, trapping many fans where they'd been watching the game. The footage and radio commentry from that day remains absolutely horrifying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkTFG9c1QfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iTSAwGo1Y Today the guardian have begun publishing work done by one of the survivors that links the chirman at the time to the fire. quote:The blaze that killed 56 football fans at Bradford City’s Valley Parade ground in 1985 was just one of at least nine fires at businesses owned by or associated with the club’s then chairman, according to extraordinary evidence published for the first time. It's absolutely shocking claim that deserves it's own thread
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 18:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:06 |
|
|
It's a pretty damning pattern and, to the extent it means anything, the Guardian's Daniel Taylor says Fletcher's research was pretty thorough. Are there any options for the survivors and victims' families at this point?
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
Brony Car posted:Are there any options for the survivors and victims' families at this point? I think investing in a smoke alarm is a bit late tbh
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 19:01
|
|
|
How did fire regulations work in the UK in the 80s? I assume there were fire inspectors and the like that would have signed off on the facilities (or certain palms were greased)?
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 23:26
|
|
|
Why the gently caress wouldn't you wait until the place was loving empty?! But seriously this one could have been an accident, wooden stands with loads of rubbish and people smoking means it could quite easily have been started by accident on the day. Remember the Kings Cross underground fire? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj21xNbNKBQ I had to watch footage of the Bradford incident when I did health and safety training and am not going to watch it again. It will be interesting to read the article regardless and hopefully they have more than what amounts to circumstantial evidence.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 23:35
|
|
|
Bea Nanner posted:How did fire regulations work in the UK in the 80s? I assume there were fire inspectors and the like that would have signed off on the facilities (or certain palms were greased)? Whatever the regulations nobody gave a gently caress about football fans at the time and it took this and later Hillsborough for meaningful change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 23:36
|
|
|
You would set the fire while fans were there so it could be blamed on a dropped cigarette
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2015 23:47
|
|
|
possible IRA arson?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 01:05
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:Why the gently caress wouldn't you wait until the place was loving empty?! I have a tough time picturing someone burning a stadium for insurance money / to avoid fines when it's full of people. A stadium is usually empty. Why burn it when it's full of people and expose yourself to even more liability? Also, I just skimmed the article, but does it mention how many properties the owner had? If he's got 100 properties 8 burning suddenly isn't so shocking. And footage of the Bradford fire is the worst. The guy on fire still fucks with me years after seeing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 01:17
|
|
|
Bea Nanner posted:How did fire regulations work in the UK in the 80s? I assume there were fire inspectors and the like that would have signed off on the facilities (or certain palms were greased)? They were pretty much non existent or just ignored. The stand was made of plain old wood and there was tons of rubbish that had built up over the years under the seating which is one of the reasons it spread so fast.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
blue footed boobie posted:Why burn it when it's full of people and expose yourself to even more liability? Also, I just skimmed the article, but does it mention how many properties the owner had? If he's got 100 properties 8 burning suddenly isn't so shocking. A fire department regulation inspection was due to begin the next day and there was litter everywhere. The owner was close to bankruptcy. The issue isn't whether 8 of his properties caught fire, it's how they consistently time to benefit his financial situation that changes things from unlucky to seriously unlikely. I haven't read the research to see whether the other fires also time as well for him, as that would be a serious implication of guilt.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 07:26
|
|
|
Seems a load of old bollocks to me thats been done to sell books
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 10:03
|
|
|
Everyone knows it were Liverpool fans wot done it
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 11:51
|
|
|
The Big Taff Man posted:Seems a load of old bollocks to me thats been done to sell books Even if that's true, after losing his dad, granddad, uncle and brother I don't begrudge him
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 11:52
|
|
|
Spangly A posted:A fire department regulation inspection was due to begin the next day and there was litter everywhere. The owner was close to bankruptcy. No I get all that. He could have still burned it down at just about any other time. Spangly A posted:The issue isn't whether 8 of his properties caught fire, it's how they consistently time to benefit his financial situation that changes things from unlucky to seriously unlikely. I haven't read the research to see whether the other fires also time as well for him, as that would be a serious implication of guilt. That's not the issue. It doesn't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 13:52
|
|
|
blue footed boobie posted:No I get all that. He could have still burned it down at just about any other time. Is someone who commits arson going to be in a mental state where they care about the wellbeing of others, insurance fraud or not? I don't mean to sound ignorant here, but I just feel like if someone's going to burn a building down they may or may not give a drat whether or not anyone else gets hurt as a result of doing so.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
If he was doing it for insurance fraud that's pre-meditated, you have to plan it to be staged so that it's not obviously arson. It's not a crime of passion. If you injure or kill people there's going to be even more scrutiny and investigation into the cause than if an empty building burns down. You would have to be something of a psychopath to not care if you risked the lives of thousands of people to commit fraud essentially. I am sure there must be a massive difference in punishment between committing arson for insurance fraud and this, which you could probably make a strong case for murder as it was a pre-meditated act. So far what has been released is the definition of circumstantial evidence, and even that might be stretching it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 17:39
|
|
|
The judge who led the inquiry into the Bradford City football stadium fire has said claims it may have been started deliberately are "nonsense". A new book claims the 1985 blaze was just one of at least nine fires at businesses owned or associated with the then chairman Stafford Heginbotham. Sir Oliver Popplewell has stood by his verdict the fire, which killed 56 people, was an accident. He said police should look at the other fires to see if they were "sinister". The book's author Martin Fletcher lost three generations of his family in the fire. Mr Fletcher, who was 12 at the time of the blaze, escaped unharmed from the stand at Valley Parade, but his father, uncle, grandfather and younger brother all died. He claims to have uncovered evidence Mr Heginbotham was in dire financial trouble at the time. Speaking to BBC Radio Leeds, Sir Oliver said: "I'm sorry to spoil what is obviously a very good story, I'm afraid is nonsense for many reasons." An inquiry ruled the fire was started by a dropped cigarette The retired judge said the main flaw in the argument that the fire was arson was the stand involved had no insurance value because it was due for demolition. He said the fire was examined by experienced and thorough investigators who found nothing suspicious. And he said no question of arson was ever raised in civil legal proceedings. The Popplewell inquiry, held three weeks after the disaster, ruled the fire was started by a spectator dropping a cigarette which ignited into rubbish that had accumulated under an old timber stand. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-32330734
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
There's an excerpt here: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/16/bradford-fire-fifty-six-martin-fletcher-second-extract It's incredibly overwritten to the point of stdh.txt. I don't know if the ghostwriter convinced the guy who actually went through it that he knew what was best in a dramatic sense, but just loving imagine someone in Bradford in 1985 uttering this kind of poo poo: droll sympathetic prepubescent protagonist posted:“Piss on it, piss on it, piss on it!” those on the paddock on our left started to chant. “What a pity I’ve just been – I could have put that out!” I announced, to wry smiles all round. patrick swayze messiah figure posted:“I know, son. But look at me, look only at me. Deep breaths, son; deep breaths. With me, in … out … in … out. Good, now listen to me …” and with my breathing now regulated by Dad’s rhythm, as I got large lungfuls of clear air, I nodded.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:39
|
|
|
"with my breathing now regulated by Dad’s rhythm" ummm...... repressed memories being coaxed out?
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:41
|
|
|
Eau de MacGowan posted:There's an excerpt here: Is this the actual book because Jesus. Although, You're not gonna get me siding with dodgy fat cat owners with a history of suspicious arson cases, over a lad who lost his family in a fire, I'm not picking the fat cat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:"with my breathing now regulated by Dad’s rhythm" I imagine he had repressed some of the memories of the occasion when his father, brother, uncle and grandfather, and 52 other people died, yeah
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
It's fortunate they didn't have fences around the stands at Valley Parade.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:55
|
|
|
Heginbotham died in 1995, aged 61, and was never prosecuted for the Valley Parade fire, despite the coroner later saying he had given serious consideration to bringing a charge of manslaughter. Bradford City had received three separate warnings about the potential fire risk, two from the Health and Safety Executive and another from the council, but did nothing. Fletcher’s book reveals how Heginbotham initially denied seeing the council’s letter before repeatedly changing his story when it became clear this was not true. The author has told the Guardian it was a “litany of lies”. Of Heginbotham’s history with fires, Fletcher writes: “To quote a Los Angeles Police Department fire investigator in Blaze, the Forensics of Fire by Nicholas Faith: ‘It’s rare to have a coincidence. If we start having multiple coincidences then it’s not a coincidence.’ It is clear to me that at Bradford, with Stafford Heginbotham in charge, there was a mountain of coincidence.” Once dubbed “the bravest boy in Britain”, Fletcher is the only survivor to publicly challenge the official inquiry, describing it as wholly inadequate and saying it took place far too close to the event. His family expected a fuller investigation to follow and he says his determination to find out “the truth” stems initially from a conversation with his mother, Susan, when he was 21. “I never believed it was an accident and I never will,” she told him. “I don’t think Stafford intended for people to die. But people did. All because he went back to the one thing he knew best that would get him out of trouble.” When Susan Fletcher brought a civil case against the club and West Yorkshire county council, meaning 110 bereaved or injured people would have their compensation claims met, she received a series of anonymous late-night telephone calls, including death threats against Martin, then 14, and the warning “nobody beats Bradford City”. The grieving mother and son temporarily had to move out of their house to live in a hotel. Martin was taken out of school until it was considered safe to return. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/15/bradford-fire-stafford-heginbotham-martin-fletcher So, okay, the council sent three separate warnings about the fire risk, but didn't close down the stadium until they were resolved because? That to me seems like a genuine scandal, and I am sure that it wouldn't happen these days. I mean I am all for believing Heginbotham could well be a serial arsonist and insurance scammer, but to accuse someone of purposefully burning down a football stand at half time when the stand is full requires a little more than circumstantial evidence. Clearly Fletcher suffered unimaginable loss and he deserves to get some money from this book. JFairfax fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Apr 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 19:57
|
|
|
Once when I was a little kid, outside of a Costco i found a match on the ground, lit it, it went out, and I threw it in a big trash can, when I came out the trash can was melted to the ground and there was a fire truck there. Fire is a strange beast.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 20:00
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:Why the gently caress wouldn't you wait until the place was loving empty?! You probably answered your own question, burning it down with people in it would mean everyone could easily blame it on the garbage and people smoking. Not saying it was arson and I haven't read the book or the articles about it, but if the guy was immoral enough to burn down nine buildings as the book claims, he may well have been immoral enough to burn one of them down with people inside.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 22:24
|
|
|
You could wait till 5 minutes after the stand had emptied and blame a lit cigarette. It seems like quite an unlikely leap from insurance scammer to a person willing to set fire to a stand with 4,000 people in it. The stand had already been condemned, and I believe the demolition of the stand was meant to begin the next day, with the plans in place and building material already in the car park. If they were so desperate for the cash I doubt that would have been the case. This from another Guardian article seems pretty strong evidence against it: quote:The retired judge said the main flaw in the implication that the fire might have been arson was that the stand involved had no insurance value because it was due for demolition.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 23:50
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:If he was doing it for insurance fraud that's pre-meditated, you have to plan it to be staged so that it's not obviously arson. It's not a crime of passion. If you injure or kill people there's going to be even more scrutiny and investigation into the cause than if an empty building burns down. This is where I am. Even if he is an insurance scammer there's a huge jump from insurance scammer to actual mass murderer. Sounds like he was probably criminally negligent, though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 16, 2015 23:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:06 |
|
|
If you're going to do an investigation into whether someone committed arson for insurance money, wouldn't your first step be to see if there was any insurance money made?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2015 15:32
|
|
