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I think the media is doing subtle changes to his words to make it more stark, but it is essentially what he said. The actual quote is: "It makes me think of ... people, managers, businessmen who call themselves Christian and they manufacture weapons. That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn't it?" This Pope is pretty pacifist, given some of his prior statements, so I think the reading of it is essentially correct. But it should be clarified that he didn't say "you can't call yourself Christian if you're a weapons manufacturer" (as was often reported), just that he doesn't think it's a particularly Christian thing to do. So that's a subtle media spin to make him sound more aggressive than he was. Shbobdb posted:Not necessarily. You can get around it the same way Christians used to get around not being able to charge interest -- just have non-Christians do it. You are suggesting perhaps that it would have been more consistent for Renaissance Christians to continue to outlaw Jewish usury entirely, rather than to integrate the practice? Perhaps you are right. A Buttery Pastry posted:Finally, a use for the combat-hardened Muslim hordes we're letting into our lands. Islam also forbids usury.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:34
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Kyrie eleison posted:Islam also forbids usury.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:39
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Will the anti-pope declare we need to save capitalism and destroy the world?
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Jun 23, 2015 19:45
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That would be Antichrist, antipopes claim to be the true leaders of the church, the other pope being like, an imposter. The Antichrist would seek the destruction of the world (so basically unregulated or unconscious capitalism).
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Jun 23, 2015 19:55
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Kyrie eleison posted:You are suggesting perhaps that it would have been more consistent for Renaissance Christians to continue to outlaw Jewish usury entirely, rather than to integrate the practice? Perhaps you are right. Not at all! I think it was perfectly consistent. Christian rules don't apply to non-Christians. There is an important distinction between heresy and heathenism.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:56
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MaxxBot posted:There's a big difference between just war doctrine, which is in the Catechism, and full on pacifism. Taking the position that guns are bad regardless of context seems to be endorsing full on pacifism. If manufacturing guns is un-Christian then taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that a real Christian country wouldn't have guns or a military, it would be a pacifist country rather than one able to defend itself using just war doctrine. I think the Pope would place a distinction between in-state weapons manufacturing for the military/defense and the production of arms for sale on the international market.
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Jun 23, 2015 20:09
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McDowell posted:I think the Pope would place a distinction between in-state weapons manufacturing for the military/defense and the production of arms for sale on the international market. Where do you think black market military-grade arms come from?
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Jun 23, 2015 21:33
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Republican administrations?
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Jun 23, 2015 22:04
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Kyrie eleison posted:I think the media is doing subtle changes to his words to make it more stark, but it is essentially what he said. The actual quote is: "It makes me think of ... people, managers, businessmen who call themselves Christian and they manufacture weapons. That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn't it?" Do not post in this thread
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Jun 23, 2015 22:29
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Hello Sailor posted:Where do you think black market military-grade arms come from?
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Jun 23, 2015 23:13
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I don't get how folks can say the current pope's positions are a populist reaction to draw attention away from the child molestation scandals. He was saying and doing stuff like this long before he was a Pope, back in South America.
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Jun 24, 2015 00:06
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Nitrousoxide posted:I don't get how folks can say the current pope's positions are a populist reaction to draw attention away from the child molestation scandals. He was saying and doing stuff like this long before he was a Pope, back in South America. I totally get how conservatives' piousness was utterly cynical and strategic, why is that surprising?
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Jun 24, 2015 04:18
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Things like the child abuse scandal make it really, really easy to be cynical about the Catholic church. Especially if your local priest is a dirtbag. Plenty of priests are dirtbags. It's easy to dismiss that because most priests are paragons of loving humanity. Conversely, plenty of priests are amazing human beings. It's harder to dismiss that, since the Church may well be in collusion with a loving awful government but your guy proves it can really work. Informed cynics on either end can dick around with those things. It's a lot harder when the head of the loving church is making a clear declaration. Yeah, he's part of a horribly regressive institution. Sure, his opinions are liberal, not revolutionary. But he's got a really big horn and he is using it to drive the dialogue left. Imperfectly, but I can't think of another figure in his position who has used the horn to drive it that way. Imperfectly, from an imperfect institution.
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Jun 24, 2015 06:02
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I don't think the pope himself is being a cynical mastermind or whatever, just that the environment where he was elected was very much one in which made him being chosen more likely, which I feel was trying to deflect from negative attention. Not saying that Francis should be dismissed for those reasons or whatever, it seems to me like one of those weird historical quirks/connections or whatever.
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Jun 24, 2015 07:00
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It's a lot simpler than that. The Church has had declining membership for a while in the Western World. They tried doubling down on a dying demographic with Benedict and . . . it didn't go well. Rebooting it with an awesome figure from staunchly non-European area (but with a guy white enough not to freak out the conservatives) was just a savvy move. So what?
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Jun 24, 2015 07:21
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Nitrousoxide posted:I don't get how folks can say the current pope's positions are a populist reaction to draw attention away from the child molestation scandals. He was saying and doing stuff like this long before he was a Pope, back in South America. There were members of the church that openly defied dictatorial governments (some of them died, a lot of them had to flee), Bergoglio was never one of them, rather complicit with the rest of the church in their support via refusing to criticize. He's never been and never will be a progressive figure (he is the head of state of a reactionary absolute monarchy just fyi).
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Jun 24, 2015 07:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Finally, a use for the combat-hardened Muslim hordes we're letting into our lands. You joke, but Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor, did just this.
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Jun 24, 2015 07:54
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Shbobdb posted:Not at all! I think it was perfectly consistent. Christian rules don't apply to non-Christians. There is an important distinction between heresy and heathenism. Bear in mind that the Jewish moneylender was almost entirely a creation of the political system, which used them as an easily-distinguished minority (and which, when the number of Jewish people in the country proved insufficient, was replaced with imported Christians who pretended to be Jewish) that were barred from any other kind of employment and who could be used as a royal savings account, by taxing and eventually torturing the successful ones into giving up all their money to the king.
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Jun 24, 2015 13:17
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Effectronica posted:imported Christians who pretended to be Jewish Do you have any more information on this? e:vvv Thanks! Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 13:37
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Guavanaut posted:This sounds a lot like the Khazar conspiracy that the bulk of European Jewry has no lineage claim to Israel. Is that where they got the idea from? Leon Poliakov, Jewish bankers and the Holy See from the thirteenth to the seventeenth century (1977) covers this in detail. Many of them were imported specifically from the town of Cahors in France and the Lombard regions of Italy.
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Jun 24, 2015 13:51
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Shbobdb posted:It's a lot simpler than that. The Church has had declining membership for a while in the Western World. They tried doubling down on a dying demographic with Benedict and . . . it didn't go well. Rebooting it with an awesome figure from staunchly non-European area (but with a guy white enough not to freak out the conservatives) was just a savvy move. I generally doubt that the old men who are caretakers of a 2000 year institution that predates any existing present institution and defies categorization because of that alone really cares that much about doubling down or image issues that a U.S. Presidential candidate might care about. I'm sure they wanted someone energetic who they thought would do a good job (in their eyes) and I'm sure there was at least some consideration of appeal to individual populations, but I don't think that played as much of a factor as you might think.
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Jun 24, 2015 16:10
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I love this pope so bad! I mean he washed a woman's feet, then he says homosexuals shouldn't be judged by the church and now he wants to abolish capitalism! He is basically an antipope-pope!
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Jul 5, 2015 20:16
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So is capitalism abolished yet?
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Jul 5, 2015 21:06
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Samiz posted:I love this pope so bad! I mean he washed a woman's feet, then he says homosexuals shouldn't be judged by the church and now he wants to abolish capitalism! He is basically an antipope-pope! This pope has revitalized my faith in the church and my personal faith in christ. a good pope.
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Jul 5, 2015 21:09
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Baloogan posted:This pope has revitalized my faith in the church and my personal faith in christ. a good pope. He almost wants me to become catholic and that is going really far!
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Jul 6, 2015 13:31
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