Ask me about having sociopathic tendencies

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about having sociopathic tendencies

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Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

ShadowMoo posted:

Thanks for the advice. I am actually going to bring up most of these points with my therapist, I have been looking for questions to bring them. I just have a hard time expressing my ideas in a verbal fashion without resorting to extreme emotional states so I tend to just keep numb.

You should maybe get a different therapist. One with a PhD. In Psychology.

# ? Nov 13, 2015 09:17

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# ? May 3, 2024 21:34

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

SSH IT ZOMBIE posted:

Few people like to banter back and forth about armchair economics, social observations, and random other poo poo sane people don't talk about.

literally everyone banters back and forth about armchair economics, social observations and random poo poo

especially D&D, but also real people too

# ? Nov 13, 2015 09:18

Smoothrich: Nov 8, 2009; Can't post for 2 years!

SSH IT ZOMBIE posted:

More or less have known him for over 20 years. I'm also dumb and only cut people out of my life if they are negatively affecting me somehow, so I fraternize with all different types of people to different degrees . The rabbit hole goes a lot deeper than that but whatever. He's an interesting guy to talk to because while he's loving insane, he's also brilliant.

Few people like to banter back and forth about armchair economics, social observations, and random other poo poo sane people don't talk about.

does he have an SA account

ShadowMoo posted:

Thanks for the advice. I am actually going to bring up most of these points with my therapist, I have been looking for questions to bring them. I just have a hard time expressing my ideas in a verbal fashion without resorting to extreme emotional states so I tend to just keep numb.

write them down in advance, stand up in your therapist's office and read them outloud, then drop a bunch of smokebombs and pull out your katana

"You think I'm a... pseudo... psychopath? :smug:

Smoothrich fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Nov 13, 2015

# ? Nov 13, 2015 11:10

DeeplyConcerned: Apr 29, 2008; I can fit 3 whole bud light cans now, ask me how!

Megasabin posted:

Time to talk about sociopathic tendencies. This is a really sticky subject in the field, and a point of disagreement between many psychiatrists and psychologists. I think anti-social tendencies or anti-social traits are much better terms, because really there is no such thing as a pure "sociopath". Humans are way more complex than boiling them down to one word, and the layperson's conception of a sociopath basically only exists in movies or TV. No one acts or thinks like Dexter in real life, and if they claim to, it's because they are being influenced by the fiction, not the other way around. Since you specifically bring about Dexter, we can talk more about that later. People can have anti-social aspects to their personality, but even then it's a very hard thing to judge, and it's way over-diagnosed. Most physicians are not in the same life circumstance as the people they are diagnosing as anti-social, and they really don't bother to try and place themselves in their patients shoes. When someone tries to fake symptoms to get into the hospital, tells you they deal drugs, gets arrested for assault, or just says they want to kill everyone, it's relatively low effort to slap them with a diagnosis of anti-social personality disorder and call it a day, rather than actually try to think about what their life is like and what led to them making those choices. Often times they have very good reasons for making those choices, and while they might not feel guilty about them, they don't perceive those choices as inherently evil like the psychiatrist might.

Labeling someone as "psychopath", "sociopath", or even "anti-social" does little to nothing for them, and basically reduces what's probably a complex interaction of tragic life circumstances, maladaptive decision making, and other psychiatric illness down into a label that essentially is an official PC way of calling someone an rear end in a top hat. According to the current literature there are no treatments for being "anti-social" medication doesn't help with it, and neither does psychotherapy, so what exactly are you doing for your patient by calling them that? I'm sure someone is going to cite some study claiming to be effective, but that's all you'll find-- single studies from crappy journals without replication. Even calling a serial killer a "psychopath" is completely unhelpful, because serial killers likely have a combination of OCD, fetishistic violence, and anti-social traits.

I think your advice to the OP about his diagnosis being bullshit is spot on, but I did want to add a perspective based on my own research. I think you're conflating antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy (although I do agree that the diagnostic labels are overly simplistic, and tell a partial story at best). Also, there are subdivisions within psychopathy, generally referred to as �primary� and �secondary�. Primary psychopathy a stable personality characteristic that has some clear biological underpinnings, whereas secondary psychopathy is essentially acquired through extreme stress or trauma. Both can result in a lack of adherence to traditional morality, however the symptoms the OP describes, anxiety, guilt, emotional volatility, sound more clearly like secondary psychopathy. Secondary is highly comorbid with bipolar, borderline, anxiety disorders, etc.

But I'll talk about primary psychopathy, which many consider �true� psychopathy, and I tend to agree. The behavior patterns, causes, and comorbidities between the two types are different enough in my mind to warrant a clear distinction. The concept of primary psychopathy has some overlap with antisocial, but there are some very big conceptual differences. The main distinguishing factor in psychopathy is an extreme emotional �disturbance� for lack of a better word, resulting in what I would consider simply a �different� way of experiencing emotions than most people. They're not volatile, �crazy�-seeming, and really don't seem disturbed at all, however they are sometimes described as emotionally cold, uncaring, detached, or callous. There are several neurological and neurochemical reasons for the disturbance that are probably way beyond the scope of this thread.

To put it simply, compared to the average person, those with primary psychopathy are essentially �immune� from stress. They fail to learn from punishment (which is the main way society emphasizes its moral code), because they don't really experience punishment as stressful. This has a whole lot of ramifications, because it turns out our brains are really little emotion-machines, and even logical folk like scientists use emotions to organize their lives, motivate them towards specific actions, and generate anxiety, guilt, and shame when even contemplating antisocial behavior. And all of our social interactions are based on a �theory of mind� which basically runs the little emotion program in our brain, telling us that someone else would respond to being scared, stressed, anxious, or depressed in the same ways that we would. But, if you're almost totally immune to stress, your theory of mind has got to be out of whack with the average person. Like, if the time your friend lied to you was slightly disappointing, but you got over it, you're likely to not feel very bad about lying to your friend. Whereas if you considered it a huge breach of trust, you'd likely think twice. At the same time, stress immunity may make you bolder, more disinhibited, and you may feel less anxious about contemplating a violent or antisocial act, since you really have no reason to expect that the result (whatever it may be ) would disturb you , since almost nothing can. They would tend to see a random violent encounter as "exciting" rather than "stressful" or even "terrifying".

You can see why someone might be more able than the average joe go on a killing spree if they have this disorder, but the fact is that 99% of people with psychopathic tendencies probably don't even commit antisocial acts, much less conform to the stereotype of the �cold-blooded killer�. In fact, the classic type of antisocial behavior for people with psychopathic tendencies is �inadequately motivated�, meaning that rather than lashing out due to anger, fear, or desire for revenge, they're more likely to engage in brief fighting, lying, conning, or sexually reckless behavior �just for kicks�. Many wind up in trouble with the law over and over again, possibly since they perceive going to jail as about as stressful as the average person would reading a book on a lazy afternoon.

If anyone is interested in this concept, I highly recommend Cleckley's seminal work, The Mask of Sanity. It's very accessible and well-written, told mainly through a series of case studies. I think these give a much better feel for the disorder, especially since you really have to have a lot of information on a person, or know them for quite a long time, to get an idea of whether their behavior is due to psychopathy, or whether they're just a dick.

# ? Nov 15, 2015 05:05

Megasabin: Sep 9, 2003; I get half!!

Easy MC posted:

I think your advice to the OP about his diagnosis being bullshit is spot on, but I did want to add a perspective based on my own research. I think you're conflating antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy (although I do agree that the diagnostic labels are overly simplistic, and tell a partial story at best). Also, there are subdivisions within psychopathy, generally referred to as �primary� and �secondary�. Primary psychopathy a stable personality characteristic that has some clear biological underpinnings, whereas secondary psychopathy is essentially acquired through extreme stress or trauma. Both can result in a lack of adherence to traditional morality, however the symptoms the OP describes, anxiety, guilt, emotional volatility, sound more clearly like secondary psychopathy. Secondary is highly comorbid with bipolar, borderline, anxiety disorders, etc.

But I'll talk about primary psychopathy, which many consider �true� psychopathy, and I tend to agree. The behavior patterns, causes, and comorbidities between the two types are different enough in my mind to warrant a clear distinction. The concept of primary psychopathy has some overlap with antisocial, but there are some very big conceptual differences. The main distinguishing factor in psychopathy is an extreme emotional �disturbance� for lack of a better word, resulting in what I would consider simply a �different� way of experiencing emotions than most people. They're not volatile, �crazy�-seeming, and really don't seem disturbed at all, however they are sometimes described as emotionally cold, uncaring, detached, or callous. There are several neurological and neurochemical reasons for the disturbance that are probably way beyond the scope of this thread.

To put it simply, compared to the average person, those with primary psychopathy are essentially �immune� from stress. They fail to learn from punishment (which is the main way society emphasizes its moral code), because they don't really experience punishment as stressful. This has a whole lot of ramifications, because it turns out our brains are really little emotion-machines, and even logical folk like scientists use emotions to organize their lives, motivate them towards specific actions, and generate anxiety, guilt, and shame when even contemplating antisocial behavior. And all of our social interactions are based on a �theory of mind� which basically runs the little emotion program in our brain, telling us that someone else would respond to being scared, stressed, anxious, or depressed in the same ways that we would. But, if you're almost totally immune to stress, your theory of mind has got to be out of whack with the average person. Like, if the time your friend lied to you was slightly disappointing, but you got over it, you're likely to not feel very bad about lying to your friend. Whereas if you considered it a huge breach of trust, you'd likely think twice. At the same time, stress immunity may make you bolder, more disinhibited, and you may feel less anxious about contemplating a violent or antisocial act, since you really have no reason to expect that the result (whatever it may be ) would disturb you , since almost nothing can. They would tend to see a random violent encounter as "exciting" rather than "stressful" or even "terrifying".

You can see why someone might be more able than the average joe go on a killing spree if they have this disorder, but the fact is that 99% of people with psychopathic tendencies probably don't even commit antisocial acts, much less conform to the stereotype of the �cold-blooded killer�. In fact, the classic type of antisocial behavior for people with psychopathic tendencies is �inadequately motivated�, meaning that rather than lashing out due to anger, fear, or desire for revenge, they're more likely to engage in brief fighting, lying, conning, or sexually reckless behavior �just for kicks�. Many wind up in trouble with the law over and over again, possibly since they perceive going to jail as about as stressful as the average person would reading a book on a lazy afternoon.

If anyone is interested in this concept, I highly recommend Cleckley's seminal work, The Mask of Sanity. It's very accessible and well-written, told mainly through a series of case studies. I think these give a much better feel for the disorder, especially since you really have to have a lot of information on a person, or know them for quite a long time, to get an idea of whether their behavior is due to psychopathy, or whether they're just a dick.

I have read about psychopathy, although probably not to the degree you have, and I don't buy into as a valid diagnostic construct. Now I'm willing to change my mind if better evidence can be provided, but I've read quite a bit about it in terms of books and articles, and I'm simply not convinced by the evidence at all. I've heard your stress theory before, but it was framed as a lack of anxiety, rather than lack of stress response, but it's essentially the same thing. Psychopaths lack an adequate anxiety response, and without anxiety you don't fear punishment, and you never learn guilt or remorse. The issue here is that no one has even come close to proving this.

It's an almost completely theoretical construct as of right now as far as I know. There's certainly no evidence for any neurological or biochemical mechanisms that are anywhere near convincing. The book Anatomy of Violence cites tons of neuroimaging studies that show differences between the brains of repeat criminal offenders and average people, but like most neuroimaging studies in psychiatry/psychology these are essentially useless. This is because there are a ton of confounding factors that could explain the neuroimaging changes, and we don't understand the brain enough to make any real claim about correlating neuroimaging findings to actual behaviors. Also as you stated most of the studies done on this topic are case studies with very small sample sizes. This again doesn't help, and I'd really like to see studies involving multiple psychologists and psychiatrists looking at the same patient from a diagnostic perspective. Psychiatry is a far more subjective field than the rest of medicine due to our poor understanding of the underlying neurobiology, and it's shocking how different providers can have very different diagnostic interpretations of the same patient.

It's not just the term psychopathy I have an issue with. I don't really like Anti-Social Personality Disorder very much either, even though that is the currently accepted diagnostic term in the DSM (Not like the DSM is great anyway. It still treats Dissociative Identity Disorder as a real illness). Psychopathy and ASPD are both very weak diagnostic constructs to me, based on weak evidence, and in their current form have very little value diagnostically or in guiding treatment. I'm always open to changing my mind if better evidence can be provided, but I'm just not convinced with what I've seen so far.

# ? Nov 15, 2015 09:10

gagelion is back: Nov 12, 2015; by zen death robot

I like how at some point it was no longer 'cool' to be a self diagnosed sperg and now everyone on the loving internet is a sociopath

# ? Nov 15, 2015 11:04

ShadowMoo: Mar 13, 2011; by Shine

Easy MC posted:

I think your advice to the OP about his diagnosis being bullshit is spot on, but I did want to add a perspective based on my own research. I think you're conflating antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy (although I do agree that the diagnostic labels are overly simplistic, and tell a partial story at best). Also, there are subdivisions within psychopathy, generally referred to as �primary� and �secondary�. Primary psychopathy a stable personality characteristic that has some clear biological underpinnings, whereas secondary psychopathy is essentially acquired through extreme stress or trauma. Both can result in a lack of adherence to traditional morality, however the symptoms the OP describes, anxiety, guilt, emotional volatility, sound more clearly like secondary psychopathy. Secondary is highly comorbid with bipolar, borderline, anxiety disorders, etc.

Not to turn this into an e/n but I have extreme stress and trauma in spades due to my mother having some illness with the same symptoms of DID and both my fathers having sociopathy or otherwise being completely distant and rageprone not to mention various other traumas. When I was young I would constantly have to quickly figure out what was going on in a situation to not seem odd because I would have blackouts. I just figured it was normal till I started having blackouts that involved getting in trouble with the law. Then I started using delusions to cover it. My therapist says my chronic abuse of robutussin didnt help either. At this point I can't hold a plan in my head for more than a day before I forget.

It is basically a matter of time before I do something really stupid/crazy that the voices in my head can't get me out of. When I get in trouble I just let them take over or listen to what they are saying and I get out of the situation.

ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 15, 2015

# ? Nov 15, 2015 19:19

A Wizard of Goatse: Dec 14, 2014

Easy MC posted:

I did want to add a perspective based on my own research

med school, or Wikipedia

# ? Nov 15, 2015 22:40

The_Raven: Jul 2, 2004; Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved?

waitwhatno posted:

You sound like an normal college kid.

Ditch the labels, ditch the psychiatrists and go outside more. Maybe get a boat and invite some woman on a date there.

http://www.salemnews.com/news/local_news/murderer-denied-parole/article_32c65b74-a8ed-52f5-b2c7-54142b5efc8e.html

Didn't go so good for this dude, or more particularly for his date.

# ? Nov 16, 2015 22:17

Lemon: May 22, 2003

ShadowMoo posted:

Not to turn this into an e/n but I have extreme stress and trauma in spades due to my mother having some illness with the same symptoms of DID and both my fathers having sociopathy or otherwise being completely distant and rageprone not to mention various other traumas. When I was young I would constantly have to quickly figure out what was going on in a situation to not seem odd because I would have blackouts. I just figured it was normal till I started having blackouts that involved getting in trouble with the law. Then I started using delusions to cover it. My therapist says my chronic abuse of robutussin didnt help either. At this point I can't hold a plan in my head for more than a day before I forget.

It is basically a matter of time before I do something really stupid/crazy that the voices in my head can't get me out of. When I get in trouble I just let them take over or listen to what they are saying and I get out of the situation.

So in what ways have you got in trouble with the law previously?

# ? Nov 17, 2015 21:06

ShadowMoo: Mar 13, 2011; by Shine

Latest diagnosis is borderline schizophrenia with sociopathic tendencies or maybe schizoaffective but since no one is interested in this thread I'm going to let it die.

Have you ever heard the Greek myth of Orestes?

ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Nov 19, 2015

# ? Nov 19, 2015 01:19

Wampa Stompa: Aug 15, 2008; I literally have no idea what I just saw in there!; Grimey Drawer

Not to resurrect a dead thread, but on the off chance you've willfully ignored the advice of two seemingly well informed professionals who've posted so far, your psychiatrist sounds like a quack who hands out nonsensical diagnoses like loving candy and you should really, really seek a second opinion. Probably do that instead of bragging to the internet about how you're a stone-cold sociopath with a dark passenger or whatever this poo poo was supposed to have been.

# ? Nov 20, 2015 17:42

7 RING SHRIMP: Oct 3, 2012

Tony Soprano was a cool sociopath OP you sound like a bitch

# ? Nov 20, 2015 18:41

ShadowMoo: Mar 13, 2011; by Shine

No I recognize that I am a psychopath or at least my alter ego is. The diagnosis were just my therapist trying to get me to accept that diagnosis by trying every other possible diagnosis. I have done things that normal people wouldn't mostly to my family like nearly getting my biological father arrested because he threatened to stop speaking to me. There is even a name for the type of narcissism I have called 'quiet narcissist'. To crib a post from another place I have been reading.

quote:

In contrast to the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist,1 the Shy/Covert Narcissist is characterized by vulnerability and sensitivity which manifests itself in defensiveness and hostility. Like the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Shy/Covert Narcissist has grandiose fantasies, feels a sense of entitlement, and is exploitive. However, the Shy/Covert Narcissistic personality is characterized by worry, ineffective functioning, unfulfilled expectations, and vulnerability to stress.
Cooper summarizes the distinguishing features of the Shy/Covert Narcissist as follows:

�Covert narcissistic individuals are those whose fantasies, whether conscious or unconscious, are indeed grandiose, inflated, unrealistic, and self-centered. They may be preoccupied with fantasies of grandiose achievements, imagining themselves as world heroes, centers of attention, and acclaimed by all. However, for one of several dynamic reasons, these fantasies are not expressed in overt behavior and are regarded by the individual consciously as beyond attainment. The grandiose desires are not matched by a conviction of personal efficacy. These individuals are conflicted and guilty over their overweening exhibitionistic, competitive, and aggressive desires, and their defensiveness often leads them to suppress or repress any awareness of the existence of these qualities. Most often, a barrier is imposed by a severe inner conscience that finds these fantasies unacceptable, demanding both that they should be suppressed and that the person should feel guilty for harboring unacceptable wishes. In effect, the superego accurately detects that within these self-inflating ideas lie self-centered, aggrandizing desires to attribute all goodness and power to oneself and relegate all weakness and badness to others, an aspect of the angry envy that probably is involved in the genesis of all narcissistic pathology.

�. . . the patients, like the public at large, may see only the final defensive inhibitory behaviors and perceive themselves as shy and unassertive, unable to obtain what rightfully they deserve. Often, the first hint of their underlying grandiosity comes when one realizes that adolescent types of daydreams of being heroic and acclaimed have persisted into adult life with unusual intensity and frequency. . . . these individuals often think of themselves as �perfectionists� . . . their fantasy of what they ought to be or produce is so inflated and grandiose that no actual product ever meets their internal standard. This discrepancy between unconscious fantasy and reality leads to further guild and merciless attack from the conscience for not meeting self-set standards as well as to feelings of worthlessness concurrent with grandiosity. These individuals often come to the attention of psychiatrists because of the depression and sense of inner deadness that they experience, as nothing in the world matches the thrill of triumphant achievement that they imagine is due them.�2

A Covert/Shy Narcissist will have grandiose fantasies but will also be plagued by a feeling of unworthiness and thus shame for even having fantasized about his or her �greatness.� This type of narcissist, �is likely to be characterized by an incapacity to sustain ambitions or to pursue even attainable goals with full dedication, yielding to others rewards that he or she may legitimately deserve. The final result is often significant masochistic self-damage, self-pity, feelings of hurt, and depression.�3

While feeling they deserve to be recognized for their specialness, unlike the Arrogant/Overt Narcissist, the Covert/Shy Narcissist is plagued by self-doubts and thus does not as readily seek the affirmation from others he or she believes is due. Moreover, because of this strong sense of worthlessness, this type of narcissist often will not seek out appropriate friends or romantic partners because they fear exposure as frauds; for this reason their associates tend to be conspicuously inferior to themselves. Cooper observes that this narcissist, �secretly harbors fantasies that he or she is engaged in a heroic rescue of someone of lesser capabilities.�4 And, when their friends and associates offer praise, the Shy/Covert Narcissist believes that this admiration is phony and insincere. They tend to devote a considerable amount of time ruminating over the unfairness of how little their true worth is appreciated and how others get the recognition for things that they themselves did.

According to Cooper, these people have �pathologically harsh consciences�5 and indulge in self-talk that denigrates their sense of self-worth. In fact, instead of demanding special attention from others in recognition of their superiority, the Shy/Covert Narcissist may actually fawn over people whose accomplishments they envy while secretly harboring strong feelings of resentment and contempt.

For all these reasons, these people are �frightened to show their accomplishments and often fail to get credit for good work they have actually done. They procrastinate about accomplishing tasks that are well within their capacities but that they fear they cannot accomplish, and their overt demeanor is often excessively retiring, modest, and shy

My therapist has admitted there is little they can do for me since I freak out every time they try to work on issues and start calling myself Brian and start doing strange things like undressing myself and trying to make a pass at my therapist (none of which I tend to remember) or my mother starts trying to feed my delusions that there is nothing wrong with me and that I just have schizophrenia. My therapist says my mother has been 'abusing' me like this since I was a child but can't seem to stop supporting me financially. My therapist called it malignant nesting or something i forget, so every time my nest is threatened I do something crazy to hurt them. So I am doing inpatient after christmas. In other news my father is divorcing my mother because she has the same issues I do and refuses help so my father is getting tired of it and of constantly having to support their 30 year old son. So we get to pretend to have one last happy christmas as a family, but he has threatened to leave before so, idk. So I am a BPD Sociopathic schizophrenic

ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Nov 21, 2015

# ? Nov 21, 2015 03:12

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

op have you tried not being an rear end hole?

# ? Nov 21, 2015 04:47

A Wizard of Goatse: Dec 14, 2014

OP u don't seem like a very quiet narcissist to me haha

# ? Nov 21, 2015 05:43

Ohnonotme: Jul 23, 2007; Yay!

Yeah, I tend to stay pretty quiet about it...

*Posts on an international forum about it*

# ? Nov 21, 2015 17:46

Lemon: May 22, 2003

So in what ways have you got in trouble with the law previously?

# ? Nov 21, 2015 19:21

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

This is currently the worst personality disorder thread in A&T, congrats. Everyone, head over to the Shizoid thread, it's actually a good thread that you might actually want to read.

Hey OP, there is not much room in the other thread, so you better stay here. Fire code and all that.

# ? Nov 22, 2015 01:42

ShadowMoo: Mar 13, 2011; by Shine

*shrug* It was worth an attempt. But talking about how you are biologically designed to be an rear end in a top hat tends not to be very interesting. Not to mention that 90% of the questions have been trolls. If this was about being bipolar or skitzotypal or schizophrenic there would be a way for the average person to relate in my opinion. But most people think that psychopathy is just a willpower problem. But then again I may be just making an excuse, hard for me to tell.

ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Nov 22, 2015

# ? Nov 22, 2015 20:37

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

I know enough dicks in my life that whether or not they got an official diagnosis of being a horrible human 24/7 doesn't make that much difference to me.

# ? Nov 23, 2015 02:16

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# ? May 3, 2024 21:34

ShadowMoo: Mar 13, 2011; by Shine

idk

ShadowMoo fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Nov 29, 2015

# ? Nov 29, 2015 19:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about having sociopathic tendencies

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