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I view banh mi as a chore to eat, but calling pulled pork on ciabatta with coleslaw "banh mi" is some uncanny valley Twilight Zone bullshit. If I ordered a pulled pork coleslaw sandwich and got banh mi I'd be pretty pissed as well so I understand the Vietnamese guy's perspective. And if they're that far off then I'm guessing the false advertising at Bon Appétit is pretty comprehensive. I also agree with this student:quote:Still, some students are not convinced that Bon Appétit’s menu qualifies as cultural appropriation. Arala Tian Yoon Teh, a College sophomore from Malaysia, said the dining service’s food selections are a reflection of cultural collision, not cultural appropriation. She added that she thought Bon Appétit was inspired by Asian cuisine and just made dishes with the available ingredients. Gross said Bon Appétit did not intend to serve the dishes disrespectfully and that there is room to correct the issue. I think the bigger question is, if the students and the business sorted it out among themselves, what makes it a news story? That is, why have we non-Oberlin-affiliated people heard buzz about this? The headline makes it sound like an on-going dispute, when it should be CDS Plans Meeting with Students to Improve Accuracy of Dishes. News aggregators have learned that if you can frame something that's otherwise very mundane as something race-baiting, you get a lot of attention. I think South Park is right and this really is all a song and dance for clicks and ads. I feel pretty manipulated by clickbait rn Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 00:51
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Stinky_Pete posted:I view banh mi as a chore to eat, but calling pulled pork on ciabatta with coleslaw "banh mi" is some uncanny valley Twilight Zone bullshit. If I ordered a pulled pork coleslaw sandwich and got banh mi I'd be pretty pissed as well so I understand the Vietnamese guy's perspective. And if they're that far off then I'm guessing the false advertising at Bon Appétit is pretty comprehensive. I also agree with this student: They are actually STILL whining and protesting about it, as of a couple days ago.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:17
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TheImmigrant posted:A foreign-exchange student's mewling about racist sushi at a place where she's dishing out $50,000 a year to study Intersectionality of Semiotics of Timorese-Navajo Ikat is indelible, and priceless. I know this must hurt for you. A lawyer ranting about the wiberaw awts is pretty ironic duder. The Kingfish posted:But you can see why this term is problematic; how do you define who is and is not outside of a "source community" and how do you define who "created" anything? That's not what you'd call a hard question to answer, dipshit. Chop suey, for example, was invented by Chinese-Americans, probably based on a dish from the Guangdong region. If we tried to say that it was actually an Italian dish, our brains would commit suicide to die unstained by such criminal stupidity. Even though the actual person or persons who invented it are unknown and unknowable, we can achieve a level of precision to classify it as part of particular cuisines. We can do this with other cultural practices.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:23
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TheImmigrant posted:Keep fighting the good fight, Tiger! Racism can only be defeated by Posting furiously on the Internet according to incoherent social theory. How's your girlfriend doing?
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Dec 27, 2015 01:41
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'The Kingfish" posted:But you can see why this term is problematic; how do you define who is and is not outside of a "source community" and how do you define who "created" anything? I assume this will be elaborated later on in the book I'm reading, but a lack of a specific, known creator is one of the reasons there are few legal protections for cultural products and why they are treated as belonging in the public domain. The author briefly overviews the history of the tango and implies that its source community was lower-class bar and brothel patrons of Buenos Aires. However, this source community was made-up of Argentineans and European immigrants who appropriated Native American rhythms and African-Argentinean dance moves (which were themselves a mixture of traditional African dances). Furthermore, the tango was appropriated throughout the world, and modern Argentinean tango more closely resembles European adaptations of the tango than the original cultural product. Even in Argentina the dance is no longer associated with the lower class, although during the 20's and 30's lyrics written for the tango had messages about social injustice that were sometimes censored by the government. So basically the tango's source community jointly created the dance (while also appropriating Native American and African cultural products), the tango became popular enough to spread all over the world and form regional varieties, and then Argentineans appropriated the European variation in place of the original created by the poor. Interesting fact: The word "tango" might have been created by Latin-speaking slave traders.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:57
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Effectronica posted:A sex criminal ranting about the wiberaw awts is pretty ironic duder.
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Dec 27, 2015 01:57
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Hexmage-SA posted:I assume this will be elaborated later on in the book I'm reading, but a lack of a specific, known creator is one of the reasons there are few legal protections for cultural products and why they are treated as belonging in the public domain. This seems like an example of artistic appropriation, which I'll admit is a case where the word doesn't carry a connotation of rudeness. Maybe we can come up with an alternative to CA to be more clear about what should be known about a situation when it is given the label. Dismissive appropriation? Cultural badpropriation? Reductive appropriation?
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Dec 27, 2015 02:38
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-Troika- posted:They are actually STILL whining and protesting about it, as of a couple days ago. If that's the case, then this seems more like people feeling like a problem isn't solved until someone gets fired, and I think that's upsetting, but I'd have to see the protests in question before making that conclusion.
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Dec 27, 2015 02:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Nordic pancake tradition (which isn't really a thing, though you could argue for a Scandinavian one) is not really relevant here, except as another example of non-fluffy pancakes among many. I assume it's easier to dismiss the actual point of a post when you can just paint it as some nationalist whining, rather than an invitation to be more reflective about the assumptions you lace your posts with. Western is a much broader category than American, even if America can rightly claim to be at the center of modern Western culture. You should always be careful to not fall into the trap of first counting everyone as part of a larger, more diverse group, and then when you've added them up treat them as consisting entirely of a subgroup of the greater whole. In this case a general "Westerners" becoming effectively Americans, in terms of their pancake preference. I see where you're going with this but I'm actually glad you saw my post as chauvinistic. That was exactly the tone I wanted. It's completely normal to have weirdly particular or culturally defined food preferences and I'm not unusual in that regard. Most people are willing to provide reasonable accommodations for these feelings, if you just speak up. This was the real issue at Oberlin, what kind of accommodation can minorities reasonably expect? At the very least, I am arguing, they should expect their opinions to be heard. I meant it when I said I didn't mean to slander Nordic pancakes, even if that's not really a thing and I was being flippant. I didn't mean to erase other cultures' pancake preference. There's a million ways to cook delicious bread in a pan, not all of which end up fluffy. When I said it could "taste wrong" I meant -not appeal to the specific tastes of their customers-. Subjective I know, but most food preferences are. I was trying to convey that in a friendly, self-deprecatory tone but I guess it didn't come across. I quoted the phrase elitist because I was actually referencing a number of posts made by silence_kit, Jarmak, Kthulhu5000, and many others attempting to deride and dismiss the students. I think they ought to expect decent food, and to complain if they don't get it. I guess you wanted to talk about my little story but I'm trying to make a point about tolerance towards minority perspectives and stay relevant to the wider conversation. When I referenced "the westerners," I didn't mean all westerners, but rather the seven specific westerners (four Europeans) who ate at the same place and either shared my opinion or didn't care (nobody cared that much). Sorry it sounded like I was erasing your/others cultures.
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Dec 27, 2015 03:37
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Zanzibar Ham posted:What do you mean when you say they don't know what they're talking about? That they don't know what the authentic food is actually like, or...? Well in the case of the Sushi at Oberlin, yes. Not only is lovely sushi served all around Japan, the freezing of the fish does not effect flavor (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/60/9/e43.short?rss=1). That, and the fact that freezing fish before serving it raw is required by US law and regularly practiced in Japan as well (http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189211.htm). It also ignores how sushi is prepared and served in countries like Korea and China where the fish is presented to the customer frozen solid and one waits for it to thaw before eating. So this is a case of someone being ignorant of their own culture and demanding some ill-conceived notion of "authenticity. You could see the same thing at work in the WaPo article about Chinese food I posted, where the author claims mapodofu as part of her Cantonese heritage. The dish is actually the iconic Sichuan dish and nearly synonymous with that region worldwide. If your demands for "authenticity" and the elimination of appropriation has led to more appropriation. So I think Jamak's point stands. VitalSigns posted:This is true, but if you use the name of a dish, people are going to expect it to bear a passing familiarity with that dish or they are going to feel misled. If I advertise authentic Italian cuisine, and my tomato sauce is just ketchup poured over noodles, it's not unreasonable to complain. Squalid posted:I think they ought to expect decent food, and to complain if they don't get it. I've been disappointed at getting sugar-crusted deep-dish pizza in Korea before, but I've never used the rhetoric of appropriation to justify my emotions. If I go to a bad Greek restaurant and the tzatziki is sugared yogurt with garlic, I can and should complain about bad food, but it's another thing entirely to claim that it's disrespectful to Greek people everywhere. Let us English fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 05:09
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Let us English posted:Well in the case of the Sushi at Oberlin, yes. Not only is lovely sushi served all around Japan, the freezing of the fish does not effect flavor (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/60/9/e43.short?rss=1). That, and the fact that freezing fish before serving it raw is required by US law and regularly practiced in Japan as well (http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189211.htm). It also ignores how sushi is prepared and served in countries like Korea and China where the fish is presented to the customer frozen solid and one waits for it to thaw before eating. So this is a case of someone being ignorant of their own culture and demanding some ill-conceived notion of "authenticity. Oh, I thought that the problem was that the fish was cooked rather than raw. Can someone relink the article? It was originally put in many pages ago and I don't remember who posted it and the exact details of what was written.
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Dec 27, 2015 06:43
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Its in my post history right.... Here: http://oberlinreview.org/9055/news/cds-appropriates-asian-dishes-students-say/ Best quote: quote:Perhaps the pinnacle of what many students believe to be a culturally appropriative sustenance system is Dascomb Dining Hall’s sushi bar. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 07:02
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Oh, I thought that the problem was that the fish was cooked rather than raw. The term sushi refers to how the rice is prepared, there are preparations that include cooked fish, non-fish proteins, and even vegetarian offerings. If the complaint was the cooking of the fish that's even more ridiculous, particularly as that was almost assuredly done for food safety reasons.
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Dec 27, 2015 07:12
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Alright, now that I reread the article I can see where everyone is coming from. The students seem to have both problems with the quality and the authenticity of the food. But then, where was the part where the Hindu students complained about the tanduri having beef in it? I remember reading that part, but don't find it here now. Maybe people here talked about it so I made it up in my mind that I read about it too? Weird. I think the biggest issue was that they didn't describe the ingredients used for the dishes. I always like when places do that and I think if they do it in the future they'll have an okay time. e: okay, apparently it was this NY Post article, which wow, is really hateful Zanzibar Ham fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 07:23
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Squalid posted:I see where you're going with this but I'm actually glad you saw my post as chauvinistic. That was exactly the tone I wanted. It's completely normal to have weirdly particular or culturally defined food preferences and I'm not unusual in that regard. Most people are willing to provide reasonable accommodations for these feelings, if you just speak up. This was the real issue at Oberlin, what kind of accommodation can minorities reasonably expect? At the very least, I am arguing, they should expect their opinions to be heard.  Squalid posted:I quoted the phrase elitist because I was actually referencing a number of posts made by silence_kit, Jarmak, Kthulhu5000, and many others attempting to deride and dismiss the students. I think they ought to expect decent food, and to complain if they don't get it. I guess you wanted to talk about my little story but I'm trying to make a point about tolerance towards minority perspectives and stay relevant to the wider conversation.
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Dec 27, 2015 07:55
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silence_kit posted:
It isn't that colorblindness is inherently racist. It is that - in practice - attempting to ignore race does not actually stop racism and only helps maintain the status quo. You can't address racism if you ignore that some races are treated differently from others.
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Dec 27, 2015 08:58
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Alright, now that I reread the article I can see where everyone is coming from. The students seem to have both problems with the quality and the authenticity of the food. The tandoori part is hard to take at face value as reported. Tandoori is large hunks of meat cooked on skewers in a tandoor, which is a high temperature terracotta oven. The term tandoori essentially means "cooked in the tandoor", though it's been partially Americanized to refer to grilled meat prepared with the traditional yogurt based marinade. Discovering your tandoori contains beef is like discovering your roast chicken contains poultry. My best guess here is they correctly labelled it as tandoori in the sense it would be analogous to labeling a selection of food as "from the grill", but I feel like there is a nuance to that part of the story that isn't being correctly reported because it doesn't make much sense. I suppose they could have been upset that it wasn't clearly labeled because it could be mistaken for lamb or goat? Someone coming from India might not release that those meats world be extremely uncommon in American cafeteria food and it's the only way I can think of tandoori beef not being clearly beef to the casual observer.
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Dec 27, 2015 09:20
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What is it with goons being in denial about what a self-satisfied poo poo show college activism has become? You don't have to defend dipshit college students who think General Tso's Chicken is a traditional Chinese dish. Really, you shouldn't. Idiots who expend powerful, complex terms like privilege and cultural appropriation to describe the most trivial problems are not doing your cause justice. It gets to the point where the words take on a sort of rhetorical hyperinflation and are rendered worthless.
Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Dec 27, 2015 |
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Dec 27, 2015 09:21
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Jarmak posted:The tandoori part is hard to take at face value as reported. Tandoori is large hunks of meat cooked on skewers in a tandoor, which is a high temperature terracotta oven. The term tandoori essentially means "cooked in the tandoor", though it's been partially Americanized to refer to grilled meat prepared with the traditional yogurt based marinade. Discovering your tandoori contains beef is like discovering your roast chicken contains poultry. I don't think it's fair to give the benefit of the doubt to the cafeteria but not to the students. Students at Oberlin are forced to take a meal plan and so are forced to eat the food in the cafeteria. They have every right to complain if they don't feel the food is good for them. I think it's very telling that you take at face value anything that makes the complaints sound dumb, while you can't take at face value anything that might make them sound more legitimate (to you).
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Dec 27, 2015 09:31
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I don't think it's fair to give the benefit of the doubt to the cafeteria but not to the students. Students at Oberlin are forced to take a meal plan and so are forced to eat the food in the cafeteria. They have every right to complain if they don't feel the food is good for them. But I spent an entire paragraph trying to articulate how the complaints could make sense in context? I mean if students want to bitch about cafeteria food quality more power to them, my complaint is with trying to hijack social justice language in order to give weight to the age old tradition of bitching about the dfac food. I find this extra aggravating when the culture based complaints are just flat wrong.
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Dec 27, 2015 10:43
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Jarmak posted:But I spent an entire paragraph trying to articulate how the complaints could make sense in context? This isn't just some 5 people complaining, it's many students complaining, and the articles cherry picked complaints to suit their agendas.
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Dec 27, 2015 11:01
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I'm racist against bad threads
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Dec 27, 2015 11:12
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