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selec
Sep 6, 2003

DeadlyMuffin posted:

Isn't this how you make peace? If you have generations of people who, as they are educated (presumably by the government!) respond with horror at the atrocities of the Nazi era generation that seems like exactly the right response. When that younger generation is in power (which they are) they will know better.

Don't you wish people had that response to the horrible poo poo the US has done? How would that be anything but a massive step forward?

I would've wished for truth and reconciliation commissions and public acknowledgments--in Germany, this might've included bans on participation in any form of government for former Nazis. This would've been tough, because you lose a lot of that famous Nazi Managerial efficiency, but worth it. You don't lose the war and then put the genocidaires back into positions of power because it would be too hard to do it right, unless you do, and that's the extremely hosed moral compromise the Allies encouraged. Ideally former Nazis would not be able to carry any form of identification that didn't acknowledge that status, either. It should've been a badge of shame you couldn't escape until you died.

The reason those children respond with horror is because entire generations that preceded them were not honest with themselves or their children about their national crimes and their own personal complicity. So they failed. They hosed up on being honest and open and saying "humans can become this. I will live with this shame until I die. Do not become what I did. Reject what I could or would not." instead they just pretended nothing was wrong. It didn't work.

So no, I'm not going to give them any loving credit whatsoever for deciding to just not talk about the big Genocidal Oopsie until their kids were forced to learn what Grandpa was up to back then and screamed it out of them.

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Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

Your Brain on Hugs posted:

When German Jews make up much less than 1% of the population, but make up more than 35% of those who have been arrested under antisemitism laws, that should tell you something about Germany's relationship with its Jewish population. Guilt over the Holocaust is certainly a part of why Germany supports Israel to the extent it does, but it's also because having a Jewish Homeland that's not in Germany means there are that many less Jews who might otherwise be living in Germany.

Can you provide a source for that number?

TheDoublePivot
Feb 27, 2013

Paladinus posted:

Would you agree that Amin al-Husayni's ties with Hitler have profound influence on Palestinian politics today? Do you also believe that the current government of Germany is choke-full of crypto-nazis who, through support of Israel (and very little else, apparently), try to make thousands of Jewish Germans leave the country?

Curious as to why you would think a British appointee in the 20s would have anywhere near equivalent influence on current history compared to the holocaust and would be worth bringing up repeatedly. Probably nothing to think about.

TheDoublePivot fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Mar 29, 2024

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

TheDoublePivot posted:

Curious as to why you would think a British appointee in the 20s would have anywhere near equivalent influence on current history compared to the holocaust and would be worth bringing up repeatedly. Probably nothing to think about.

Because like I don't think that Scholz is hiding a full-back swastika tattoo and is secretly craving to expel all German Jews from the country to Israel, I also don't think that Hamas' top brass keep Mein Kampf in Arabic on their nightstand and want to expel every Jewish Israeli from the river to the sea.

Why would Germany try to attract huge numbers of Jewish immigrants if they didn't want any Jews in the country? It's absurd.

Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012

TheDoublePivot posted:

Curious as to why you would think a British appointee in the 20s would have anywhere near equivalent influence on current history compared to the holocaust and would be worth bringing up repeatedly. Probably nothing to think about.

Always interesting when they break out the Grand Mufti. One foreign-appointed bigot 100 years ago somehow always trumps decades of current apartheid politics, bantustans, in addition to overt declarations by israeli leader holding office regarding their aim of jubjugating/expelling/eliminating palestinians.

al-Husayni bewitched Hitler into doing the Holocaust with his muslim magic arts, but Ben-Gvir moving to get tens of thousands of rifles to arm his death squads is just another inconsequential day at the office.

TheDoublePivot
Feb 27, 2013


You said this in another post “The nazis' attempt at getting rid of the Jews has no direct influence on politics of the modern Germany”.

This is completely asinine, what other reason would the German government feel compelled to throw themselves on the Israeli grenade at The Hague? Old link for reference

https://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-says-will-intervene-at-the-hague-on-israels-behalf-blasts-genocide-charge/amp/

Unless they’re utterly consumed with thirst for weapons profits and Muslim deaths.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

Sephyr posted:

Always interesting when they break out the Grand Mufti. One foreign-appointed bigot 100 years ago somehow always trumps decades of current apartheid politics, bantustans, in addition to overt declarations by israeli leader holding office regarding their aim of jubjugating/expelling/eliminating palestinians.

al-Husayni bewitched Hitler into doing the Holocaust with his muslim magic arts, but Ben-Gvir moving to get tens of thousands of rifles to arm his death squads is just another inconsequential day at the office.

Who are 'they'? I specifically said that al-Husayni's ties with Hitler have zero impact on modern Palestine's ideology, even though Israeli officials like Ben-Gvir love to postulate that all modern Palestinian independence movements are secretely nazi.

TheDoublePivot posted:

You said this in another post “The nazis' attempt at getting rid of the Jews has no direct influence on politics of the modern Germany”.

This is completely asinine, what other reason would the German government feel compelled to throw themselves on the Israeli grenade at The Hague? Old link for reference

https://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-says-will-intervene-at-the-hague-on-israels-behalf-blasts-genocide-charge/amp/

Unless they’re utterly consumed with thirst for weapons profits and Muslim deaths.

Again, the original claim that I was disputing was that the German government is trying to force the country's Jewish population to leave for Israel. Do you agree with this claim?

Paladinus fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Mar 29, 2024

DeadlyMuffin
Jul 3, 2007


selec posted:

I would've wished for truth and reconciliation commissions and public acknowledgments--in Germany, this might've included bans on participation in any form of government for former Nazis. This would've been tough, because you lose a lot of that famous Nazi Managerial efficiency, but worth it. You don't lose the war and then put the genocidaires back into positions of power because it would be too hard to do it right, unless you do, and that's the extremely hosed moral compromise the Allies encouraged. Ideally former Nazis would not be able to carry any form of identification that didn't acknowledge that status, either. It should've been a badge of shame you couldn't escape until you died.

The reason those children respond with horror is because entire generations that preceded them were not honest with themselves or their children about their national crimes and their own personal complicity. So they failed. They hosed up on being honest and open and saying "humans can become this. I will live with this shame until I die. Do not become what I did. Reject what I could or would not." instead they just pretended nothing was wrong. It didn't work.

So no, I'm not going to give them any loving credit whatsoever for deciding to just not talk about the big Genocidal Oopsie until their kids were forced to learn what Grandpa was up to back then and screamed it out of them.

It can be simultaneously true that Germany did a lovely job de-Natzifying and that the modern German nation's stance toward Israel is not motivated by antisemitism.

You brought up the phenomenon of German children reacting with horror when learning what their parents elders did. The median age in Germany is about 45. Most German children now *were* those children, or their children.

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selec
Sep 6, 2003

DeadlyMuffin posted:

It can be simultaneously true that Germany did a lovely job de-Natzifying and that the modern German nation's stance toward Israel is not motivated by antisemitism.

You brought up the phenomenon of German children reacting with horror when learning what their parents elders did. The median age in Germany is about 45. Most German children now *were* those children, or their children.

Yeah, no one is immune to propaganda, and citizens of western nations are a highly propagandized people, cradle to grave. It works. If you don’t have a framework for what to make of it outside of the liberal hegemon, what else can you do but make this an individualist catharsis where you scream at grandpa and call it a day? Without an understanding of the system grandpa was part of, and how much of that system remains unreconstructed, well, here we are.

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