Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Fritz the Horse
Dec 26, 2019

... of course!

OddObserver posted:

Uhh, except it's not true for political part of the statement? Unless of course you agree with me that various incarnations of pro-Russian parties should count on account of their ethnic supremacist ideology, that is, though they are more weirdo populist than traditional far right.

(Now militias? Well, more than 0 counts as too much).

Thanks for correcting me on that. I'm not very familiar with Ukrainian politics, I'm just butting in to try and keep the thread discourse productive.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

And Russia's response was to invade Georgia and do some ethnic cleansing. That doesn't really justify their NATO fear. This is like some guy invading his neighbors while ranting about the neighborhood association having too much power.

Are you referring to the 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia invading South Ossetia?

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 15, 2013




mila kunis posted:

Are you referring to the 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia invading South Ossetia?

Oh, sounds interesting. Where could I read more about this?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

mila kunis posted:

Are you referring to the 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia invading South Ossetia?

The 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia opening fire on Russian troops entering the Georgian region of South Ossetia, and which ended with Russia engaging in ethnic cleansing of Georgians in the region.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

mila kunis posted:

Are you referring to the 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia invading South Ossetia?

That's a vast oversimplification per the timeline, as Ossetia had already started shelling across the border.

Catgirl Al Capone
Dec 15, 2007

Fritz the Horse posted:

As in the quote above, this will be enforced pretty leniently. Most of us were aware that Ukraine has a significant far-right (neo-Nazi, fascist, whatever terms you feel appropriate) political element and paramilitaries. Hopefully everyone is now aware of this after the last few pages. Simply repeating "Ukraine has Nazis" or similar is not really adding much to the discussion at this point. Again, this is enforced leniently, but I'd encourage posters to add more to the conversation than just repeating common knowledge.

There's been a lot of fairly low-content posting. I'd ask posters to try and keep their posts relevant to the current situation in Eastern Europe and make positive contributions to the discussion.

what spurred this topic wasn't the existence of far-right groups in Ukraine, but many media sources running stories promoting nazis with their nazi armbands in plain view as the front of defense against Russia with the feel-good story about the patriotic granny and all. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"

Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Feb 14, 2022

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Deki posted:

Yeah. Due to MAD, Russia is in no true danger from NATO no matter how many nations join it. They're never going to be invaded since the cost of doing so would be catastrophic.

This is purely about them not being able to bully and invade their neighbors.
I think the closest to a legitimate point is the issue of Russian-oriented citizens of Ukraine possibly getting screwed over in a scenario where Ukraine joins the EU, or at least makes accommodations with it. Seems like a legitimate worry that border regions might see their economic fortunes undermined, as Ukraine shifts its focus westward. Of course if that was the actual worry, I feel like Russia could've worked together with the EU and Ukraine to ameliorate those fears, maybe set up a special arrangement to reduce the risk of local economies suffering too much. I feel like the EU would've been very amenable to that, seeing it as a way to really start making inroads in Russia, economically and diplomatically. Plus a special transition period would probably be required anyway, given the size of Ukraine and its economy.

Of course there's a very obvious reason why the Russian leadership would not go for that model, that being it would undermine their legitimacy, by having ethnic Ukrainians and Russians both benefit from EU-sourced reforms. Something whichh would be hard to keep secret when the whole deal would rest upon continued economic activity between Russia and Ukraine.

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

OddObserver posted:

Uhh, except it's not true for political part of the statement? Unless of course you agree with me that various incarnations of pro-Russian parties should count on account of their ethnic supremacist ideology, that is, though they are more weirdo populist than traditional far right.

(Now militias? Well, more than 0 counts as too much).

Yeah man only the pro russians are ethnic supremacist, there's absolutely nothing going on in the ukrainian nationalist side.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea

The driver of this violence was largely the Ukrainian far right, which, while a minority of the protesters, served as a kind of revolutionary vanguard. Looking outside Kyiv, a systematic analysis of more than 3,000 Maidan protests found that members of the far-right Svoboda party — whose leader once complained Ukraine was run by a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” and which includes a politician who admires Joseph Goebbels — were the most active agents in the protests. They were also more likely to take part in violent actions than any group but one: Right Sector, a collection of far-right activists that traces its lineage to genocidal Nazi collaborators.

[...]

Andriy Parubiy, the unofficial “commander of Maidan,” founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine — a barely even winking allusion to Nazism — that later became Svoboda. By January 2014, even NBC was admitting that “right-wing militia-type toughs are now one of the strongest factions leading Ukraine’s protests.” What was meant to be a revolution for democracy and liberal values ended up featuring ultranationalist chants from the 1930s and prominent displays of fascist and white supremacist symbols, including the American Confederate flag.

[...]

The same far right that had led the charge in toppling Yanukovych, including Parubiy, found themselves with plum roles in the interim government that followed, while the winner of the 2014 snap presidential election — Ukraine’s seventh-richest man, Petro Poroshenko — had a history of corruption. His interior minister soon incorporated the Azov Regiment, a neo-Nazi militia, into Ukraine’s National Guard, with the country now a Mecca for far-right extremists around the world, who come to learn and get training from Azov — including, ironically, Russian white supremacists who were hounded from their country by Putin.

Despite far-right parties ultimately losing seats in Parliament, ultranationalist movements successfully shifted the country’s politics to the extreme right, with Poroshenko and other centrists backing measures to marginalize the speaking of Russian and glorify Nazi collaborators. Even so, far-right candidates have entered Parliament on non-far-right tickets, and extremists like former Azov commander Andriy Biletsky have taken high-ranking law enforcement positions. While far-right vigilantism spread through the country, Poroshenko himself granted citizenship to a Belarusian neo-Nazi and engaged in some borderline anti-Semitism of his own.

[...]

In truth, the Maidan Revolution remains a messy event that isn’t easy to categorize but is far from what Western audiences have been led to believe. It’s a story of liberal, pro-Western protesters, driven by legitimate grievances but largely drawn from only one-half of a polarized country, entering a temporary marriage of convenience with the far right to carry out an insurrection against a corrupt, authoritarian president. The tragedy is that it served largely to empower literal neo-Nazis while enacting only the goals of the Western powers that opportunistically lent their support — among which was the geopolitical equivalent of a predatory payday loan.

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/us-russia-nato-donbass-maidan-minsk-war

The role of radical nationalists in Ukrainian politics is significant, via direct pressure on the government and dissemination of narratives. If you look at the actual policies that were taken by the post-Maidan government, you’ll see the program of radical nationalist parties, particularly decommunization, banning the Communist Party of Ukraine, and Ukrainianization, which means pushing the Russian language out of the Ukrainian public sphere. Many things that the far right campaigned on before Maidan were implemented by nominally non-far-right politicians.

Nationalist radicalization is very good compensation for the lack of any revolutionary changes after the revolution. If you start, for example, to change something in the ideological sphere — renaming streets, taking away any Soviet symbols from the country, removing Vladimir Lenin’s statues that were standing in many Ukrainian cities — you create an illusion of change without actually changing in the direction of the people’s aspirations.

[...]

The radical nationalist parties, by contrast, have ideology, they have motivated activists, and at this moment, they are probably the only parties in the real sense of the word “party.” They are the most organized, the most mobilized parts of the civil society, with the strongest street mobilization. After 2014, they also got the resources for violence: they got the opportunities to create affiliated armed units and a broad network of training centers, summer camps, sympathetic cafés, and magazines. This infrastructure perhaps doesn’t exist in any other European country. It looks more like 1930s far-right politics in Europe than contemporary European far-right politics — which doesn’t rely so much on paramilitary violence but is instead capable of winning quite a broad part of the electorate.

Flavahbeast
Jul 21, 2001


OddObserver posted:

The 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia opening fire on Russian troops entering the Georgian region of South Ossetia, and which ended with Russia engaging in ethnic cleansing of Georgians in the region.

Ethnic cleansing? Those people fled on their own, Putin just cleared away the homes they discourteously left cluttering the landscape

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

OddObserver posted:

The 2008 war which was triggered by Georgia opening fire on Russian troops entering the Georgian region of South Ossetia, and which ended with Russia engaging in ethnic cleansing of Georgians in the region.

The "georgian region of south Ossetia" lmao. If Georgia had the right to secede from the USSR, Ossetia had the right to secede from the Georgian SSR. Georgia refused to recognize it and committed ethnic cleansing of native Ossetians. The 2008 war was absolutely a result of Georgian revanchism.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
LOL at the Natzbol quotes.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I think the closest to a legitimate point is the issue of Russian-oriented citizens of Ukraine possibly getting screwed over in a scenario where Ukraine joins the EU, or at least makes accommodations with it. Seems like a legitimate worry that border regions might see their economic fortunes undermined, as Ukraine shifts its focus westward. Of course if that was the actual worry, I feel like Russia could've worked together with the EU and Ukraine to ameliorate those fears, maybe set up a special arrangement to reduce the risk of local economies suffering too much. I feel like the EU would've been very amenable to that, seeing it as a way to really start making inroads in Russia, economically and diplomatically. Plus a special transition period would probably be required anyway, given the size of Ukraine and its economy.

Of course there's a very obvious reason why the Russian leadership would not go for that model, that being it would undermine their legitimacy, by having ethnic Ukrainians and Russians both benefit from EU-sourced reforms. Something whichh would be hard to keep secret when the whole deal would rest upon continued economic activity between Russia and Ukraine.

Uh, also that would require Russian leadership to /care/ for regular people in the first place. And, of course, what they did in 2014 did more to disrupt trade than the EU association stuff --- even full membership from EU won't have prevented, say, Motorsich from selling them helicopter engines.

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 15, 2013




CYBEReris posted:

what spurred this topic wasn't the existence of far-right groups in Ukraine, but many media sources running stories promoting nazis with their nazi armbands in plain view as the front of defense against Russia with the feel-good story about the patriotic granny and all. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them"

Sounds like media sources should stop generating controversy for the sake of their profits. There’s nothing feel-good at all about continued existence and operation of Azov or any other ideological paramilitary.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

OddObserver posted:

Uh, also that would require Russian leadership to /care/ for regular people in the first place.
I feel like that was heavily implied. If you care more about legitimacy (or PR) than results, that kinda means you know you're loving people over.

Trump
Jul 16, 2003

Cute
Hasn't today been really quite compared to the last few weeks? Ukraine says they still want to join NATO (not going to happen, but Putin can't go around and steal dreams from lil countries).

Terminally Bored
Oct 31, 2011

Twenty-five dollars and a six pack to my name
Imagine calling Ukraine a 'lil country'. Just lol.

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!
While both Russia and Ukraine have shared history of anti-semitism, and both sides of the armed conflict in Ukraine definitely have bona fide nazis fighting for them, there are also important differences in how far right nationalism is present in political discourse in the two countries. It's an extremely complicated topic with centuries of historical background, but it's fair to say that in Ukraine, where communist parties are outright illegal, far right groups have a disproportionate amount of influence even compared to Russia. They may not be explicitly represented in Rada, but they are well represented in various committees and in social life in general. There was even an article about this by Bellingcat
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...ces-to-the-u-s/

Despite the ban on symbols of Soviet and nazi totalitarian regimes, people are disproportionately arrested and fined for the former, while display of the latter is occasionally encouraged by local governments.


This is an actual photo from the funeral of the last Waffen-SS Division Galicia veteran in Frankivsk. The mayor of the city attended it and commented he was proud that his grandfather also served in SS Galicia. Nobody was arrested or fined for this, or even reprimanded.

Russia had its own period of catering to the extreme right domestically, but that mostly ended around 2015 when the so-called Russian March no longer had government's support, and many of the participating far-right groups were banned as extremists, with their leaders either arrested or leaving the country. Not all, however, as some notable participants, who agreed to soften their rhetoric and play nice with Putin's team, were appropriated into mainstream. Here's current RosCosmos director Rogozin at the Russian March in 2011


Rogozin's party Rodina that used to campaign on slogans like 'Moscow is for Russians' now runs on a bland patriotic left of centre platform and is basically irrelevant. RNE, whose flag is in the background, still have a significant presence in LDNR's military, but they're basically inactive in Russia itself.

Fundamentalist and traditionalist movements like Sorok Sorokov have been gaining traction lately on the wave of COVID protests. They are not strictly opposition or Putin supporters, so Kremlin's stance on them for now is mild annoyance, but compared to the liberal/democratic opposition you could say they enjoy a preferential treatment. There is also an obvious nationalistic streak to almost all mainstream opposition parties, nominally left and right (LDPR, CPRF, and Just Russia). The more radical far right groups, however, are still stomped out in Russia, as they are seen as a legitimate threat to the ideological status quo and the shaky pseudo-multicultural social contract.

To sum up, Putin is happy to support the far right abroad, but doesn't want them protesting at his own doorsteps like it often happens in Ukraine.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

Yeah nazis are real and bad unfortunately. One thing that's not really helping is getting invaded by your long time frenemy. It's pretty much inevitable that the most active resistance is going to be by the most radical nationalists.

Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009

Truga posted:

no, the westerners came along and made their situation explicitly worse in every way

please elaborate on this assertion.

Rust Martialis
May 8, 2007

At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Wistful of Dollars posted:

please elaborate on this assertion.

Clearly they made them all uppity, thinking they deserved more, getting ideas, you know?

Above their proper place, serving the center.

They should have known better, is what he's saying, I think.

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

Wistful of Dollars posted:

please elaborate on this assertion.

Truga posted:

i agree, but also in 2008 NATO leadership could have said "see, russians keep saying they'd be real mad if we really took you in" and then kept doing nothing instead of going all "oh yeah, sure, we're definitely letting you in *wink wink nudge nudge*" every few years and then doing absolutely nothing anyway. that's the real headscratcher to me. if ukraine was in nato by 2014 none of this bullshit would fly either, but nope, gotta string them along. wtf?

Paladinus
Jan 11, 2014

heyHEYYYY!!!

mobby_6kl posted:

Yeah nazis are real and bad unfortunately. One thing that's not really helping is getting invaded by your long time frenemy. It's pretty much inevitable that the most active resistance is going to be by the most radical nationalists.

It's true, and it does explain why Azov was seen as a necessary evil in 2014, when Ukrainian military was in shambles. However, Ukraine still has basically rogue paramilitary units who disobey direct orders of Zelenskyi himself. You can't explain it away by necessity anymore.

Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009


You said explicitly worse in every way. Your quote is far from explaining 'in every way', let alone much else.

It what 'every way' are things worse for Ukraine and its citizens?

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy
i mean, apart from the the loving war in 2 of their regions, the constant saber rattling by the both putin and the west, and the rise of neonazi militias?

just things going normally i guess

Mokotow
Apr 16, 2012

Hey mods, I think we’ll take the EE hang-out thread over this cesspool. Maybe rename this one to Russia vs Ukraine or vice versa.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Truga posted:

i mean, apart from the the loving war in 2 of their regions, the constant saber rattling by the both putin and the west, and the rise of neonazi militias?

just things going normally i guess

Again: What saber rattling from the West? Versus actual saber rattling from Putin/Russia by actually annexing and invading countries? When was the last Western invasion of a Russian territory?

Mokotow posted:

Hey mods, I think we’ll take the EE hang-out thread over this cesspool. Maybe rename this one to Russia vs Ukraine or vice versa.

Good ask.

Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009

Truga posted:

i mean, apart from the the loving war in 2 of their regions, the constant saber rattling by the both putin and the west, and the rise of neonazi militias?

just things going normally i guess

What portion of this blame do you attribute to Russia, since they're the ones directly causing this suffering?

BIG FLUFFY DOG
Feb 16, 2011

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.



as i recall the dude in charge of Ukraine in 2014 was so extremely pro-russian and against co-operation with the west it led to his overthrow and domino'ed to the current state of affairs so I don't really know how Ukraine would join NATO between 2008 and 2014 with the west being all-in.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
Split the thread when Russia invades.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug
To help manage this mess: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3993516

Please shift anything specifically about Russia v Ukraine in there. Ukraine or Russian internal political discussion can remain here.

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

as i recall the dude in charge of Ukraine in 2014 was so extremely pro-russian and against co-operation with the west it led to his overthrow and domino'ed to the current state of affairs so I don't really know how Ukraine would join NATO between 2008 and 2014 with the west being all-in.

so they should have said "you're not getting in" then, and thus avoiding a bunch of suffering for ukrainians because by 2014 clearly russia felt like they can handle propping up an insurgency now

Wistful of Dollars posted:

What portion of this blame do you attribute to Russia, since they're the ones directly causing this suffering?

about 80%? russia's at fault here, but this could have been easily avoidable if bush admin didn't say the thing despite knowing full well ukraine is never getting in because not every nato ally wants them in. putin would have zero reason to do anything in ukraine if ukraine wasn't a nato candidate

e:

CommieGIR posted:

Again: What saber rattling from the West?

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/23/politics/ukraine-us-second-weapons-shipment/index.html
you mean this?

e2: well gently caress

Truga fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Feb 14, 2022

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

CommieGIR posted:

Again: What saber rattling from the West? Versus actual saber rattling from Putin/Russia by actually annexing and invading countries? When was the last Western invasion of a Russian territory?

Good ask.

Last time US in particular (we all know about... Germany) did was WW1 (or rather the Russian Civil War), and I am seriously surprised Russians don't bring it up as much as Canadians bring up the burning of the White House in war of 1812 as it was a pretty embarassing showing.

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 15, 2013




Mokotow posted:

Hey mods, I think we’ll take the EE hang-out thread over this cesspool. Maybe rename this one to Russia vs Ukraine or vice versa.

Can’t say I entirely disagree with the old I/P thread comparison, despite today’s diarrhoea being just media spotlight-related.

mmkay
Oct 21, 2010

Truga posted:


about 80%? russia's at fault here, but this could have been easily avoidable if bush admin didn't say the thing despite knowing full well ukraine is never getting in because not every nato ally wants them in. putin would have zero reason to do anything in ukraine if ukraine wasn't a nato candidate


Weird though that the support for joining NATO was still below staying away from it in 2014 when Russia invaded.

Mod question - I'm unsure if this line of debate should be moved to the other thread, because it's related to Russia v Ukraine, or not?

Edit: I see that CommieGIR has responded to to this post there, so I'll repost as well.

mmkay fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 14, 2022

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

mmkay posted:

Weird though that the support for joining NATO was still below staying away from it in 2014 when Russia invaded.

Mod question - I'm unsure if this line of debate should be moved to the other thread, because it's related to Russia v Ukraine, or not?

Yeah lets move that to the other thread for now, thanks.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa
In Budapest, about 2500 protestors gathered to defend freedom of speech in... Finland? :crossarms: Yes actually, the Finnish Christian Democratic MP and former interior minister Päivi Räsänen has been at court today in Helsinki facing accusations of incitement against homosexuals. Defense claims she was just citing the Bible and therefore this falls within religious freedom but the prosecutor claims that as a political authority she should think of other ways of addressing sexual minorities than painting them as immoral degenerates.

She has received support from a bunch of US senators, too. If she's found guilty and charged with fines, then whoopee, maybe USA will call us the den of evil or something and send Marines to liberate us! :dance:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 15, 2013




New normal conversation thread is up https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3993523

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply