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The Kingfish posted:Its easy to see here how some men might feel unwelcome in feminist discussion. Roughhousing as described in this thread is big part of male culture, it sad to see it disregarded so thoughtlessly. The subject of the thread is how elements of male culture can be harmful to men, the socialization of pain and potential victimization as normal is a very good fit for that.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:49
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Yo, what is this discussion even about. Because all I'm seeing is three pages of "actually, you are" and I can't even tell what the topic is.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:52
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OwlFancier posted:The subject of the thread is how elements of male culture can be harmful to men, the socialization of pain and potential victimization as normal is a very good fit for that. The pathologization of normal male behavior is also harmful to men.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:53
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yo, what is this discussion even about. Because all I'm seeing is three pages of "actually, you are" and I can't even tell what the topic is. Whether roughhousing is inherently problematic.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:53
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yo, what is this discussion even about. Because all I'm seeing is three pages of "actually, you are" and I can't even tell what the topic is. Whether or not roughhousing is okay.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:55
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The Kingfish posted:Nobody is defending the idea that pranking is bad. Like, with arguments. Except Owlfancier who is claiming that pain is a bad thing by default. For all your arguing with TB, the entire issue was solved with her first post about consent. You were wrong in saying that pranking cannot happen without consent. If two friends agree to go at each other in a prank war, then both parties are consenting until one of them withdraws that consent. If one friend keeps randomly slapping friend 2's balls and going "Prank bro! PRANNNAAAANNNKAAAA hahaah!" and friend 2 does not wish to participate in such activities then consent is not involved and it is bad. If friend one wants to play ball slappy and friend 2 does not but agrees to anyway because friend one tells him to man up and stop being a pussy, then it's not really consensual and it is bad. Now apply this to ALLLLL your examples, rough play, contact sports, sex, anything at all. Or just keep arguing with TB about a point she already established.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:56
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Okay, so people had different concepts of the context surrounding playing pranks on each other and roughhousing, which isn't being differentiate from bullying because ??????, and now everyone's accusing each other of being alt-right SJW feminazi rapists? Is that the thing I just spent three pages reading? Really?
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Jan 2, 2017 19:59
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GlyphGryph posted:First off, I really want to thank you for having this conversation with me. Even if I feel like you've drawn some wrong conclusions or we've miscommunicated, you have actually been engaging and you haven't resorted to personal and I do genuinely appreciate it. We still very clearly disagree about things, but that's okay. What you are describing seems to be seeking pain as a pleasurable experience, not necessarily sexual, but certainly you seem to be saying that you do things, in part, because they are painful and you find that pain fulfilling. That would not seem to be incompatible with the term "masochism". Certainly it is not a thing I experience and there seems to be other dissent in the thread so I don't believe that it is somehow the default, inherent human state. That does not, of course, make it wrong, but the assumption that it is "natural" or common to all humans is not, I think, well founded, and again ties into normalizing it. GlyphGryph posted:On the other hand it is not niche, and you are attempting to marginalize something which is not marginal and that's not okay. It is normal to want to roughhouse. It is normal to enjoy a spot of pain in a larger context. It is also normal not to. Normal is a range, and both experiences fall within it. The reason I disagree with normativity and the way you are expressing this idea is because normalizing things carries an implicit expectation of conformity. This is inescapable. Things which reinforce this idea that certain behaviors are "normal" also, inescapably, reinforce the idea that they are something you are expected to do. This is why I am taking issue with so much of the language you're using to express your position. This reinforcement of "normality" for certain behaviors molds people into accepting them when they may otherwise not, when they may actually cause them substantial discomfort. It is important to start from the rejection of normative behavior on subjects like this because current methods primarily serve to reinforce it. Breaking from this idea that you are either normal or abnormal and the value judgement implicit in that is important because it is that mechanism which is used to reinforce potentially deleterious behaviors into people.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:59
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By the way, I'm closing this thread again, for really obvious reasons. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
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Jan 2, 2017 20:00
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