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Numerical Anxiety posted:As a general rule of thumb, I think that if one's approach to hypnosis isn't woven into a wider theory of mind, it can be safely dismissed. And, of course, anything involving past lives, unlocking hidden potential and the like is bunk. I don't mean to deny the fact that stage hypnotists can produce effects via suggestion - my dismissal was more directed towards the way that they talk themselves up. But then that's all marketing for a professional performer anyway, not worth taking seriously. Pehaps I'm approaching this too strongly from a psychotherapeutic angle, but when it comes to hypnotherapy, I don't think that it delivers anything that it promises. Already the literature from a hundred years ago shows this pretty clearly - with hypnotizable patients, you can make symptoms go away for a while, but it does nothing to address the underlying disturbance that makes them suffer. What one usually gets is just the appearance of a new set of symptoms after a period of time, which might well be worse. It does nothing to help really, it just kicks the can down the road and is less effective with each renewed attempt. That goes for faith healers as well as hypnotherapists; the promise that such treatments actually help can only be offered in bad faith. I agree with almost all of this. But I think hypnotherapy does have benefits, not necessarily in the realm of physical maladies, though I think pain control can be useful if done correctly, but more in cognitive-behavior pattern shifting. Treating depression, addiction, things like that. And while dissociation is usually a part of hypnosis, there's still other valuable parts, like absorption and suggestibility that can be used for good. So re: manipulation, I think it can also be done positively - I've tried it once, in helping someone get over a really bad breakup where their negative self-image was getting fully in the way of analyzing the situation neutrally. And the progress after that session was far better than I'd hoped. I'm tempted to try it again with a different depressed friend for whom traditional therapy has been absolutely useless due to similar self-defeating negative self-image, as well as intentionally deceiving their therapist as to the problem. I believe a dissociative state would do wonders. But I'm out of my depth there at the moment, and potentially risking legal problems if I veer into anything remotely considered medical, so I've been sitting on my hands. And we have literally no other hypnotists in a 5,000 mile radius, so I can't send him to someone who knows exactly what they're doing.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:11
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Also, I've found this page does a good job of presenting the basic positions of the competing ideas of 'how it works'. I'm obviously firmly in the 'state' camp, but this has some great stuff. https://hypnosisandsuggestion.org/theories-of-hypnosis.html
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Aug 2, 2017 07:16
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Control Volume posted:Do you have an example of stage hypnosis behavior being duplicated? Yea, it's called "I told my drunk friend to do something stupid and he did it."
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Aug 2, 2017 11:32
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Abugadu posted:Also, I've found this page does a good job of presenting the basic positions of the competing ideas of 'how it works'. I'm obviously firmly in the 'state' camp, but this has some great stuff. Hypnosisandsuggedtion.org is not a valid source. Find good sources, take the time to read and comprehend them, then come back and give a definition of hypnosis. You have still refused to do that, and its been hilarious watching you flail around like an antivaxxer, insisting you're right. Especially since you keep just declaring yourself correct, despite mounting evidence that you came into the discussion with your mind made up, and have been desperately grasping at things to try and prove it no matter what. You're not discussing honestly, you're trying to use reason to convince us of a position you never bothered to reason yourself into.
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Aug 2, 2017 12:19
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WampaLord posted:Yea, it's called "I told my drunk friend to do something stupid and he did it." Well when a hypnotist starts just liquoring people up on stage let me know so I can volunteer
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Aug 2, 2017 14:37
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I went to a Pentecostal church as a kid. Children's church was normal and pretty nice. The day I went to adult church is the day I quit going to church completely. That involved people speaking in tongues, being "slain in the spirit" (falling over on the ground), people running up and down the aisles whooping, and people inappropriately laughing and clapping. None of that was because of God moseying down and poking everybody in the cerebellum. It was all the power of suggestion and people doing what was expected. if you asked any of them about it, however, they would say it was the power of God, not to be deceptive, but because they truly believed it. Not only that, believing it made them feel amazing. That's what I think of when I think of hypnosis. Someone willingly giving themselves over to a "higher power" (whether that is a God or a hypnotist) and letting themselves be led. It feels like it's really happening because, as far as the participant is concerned, it is. But to everybody else, it is obvious that no magic is involved, just an excessively open mind and a desire to be filled. See the documentary Leap of Faith for more details.
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Aug 2, 2017 15:45
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Abugadu posted:I agree with almost all of this. But I think hypnotherapy does have benefits, not necessarily in the realm of physical maladies, though I think pain control can be useful if done correctly, but more in cognitive-behavior pattern shifting. Treating depression, addiction, things like that. I wouldn't separate absorbtion and suggestibility from dissociation - those are properties of a dissociative state, one sees them also in spontaneously generated cases. Honestly, the use of hypnotherapy seems like a low-rent alternative to CBT, one which works by jamming one's metaphorical fingers into a fault in the patient's mind. I could cite literature or personal experience with people who have undergone hypnotherapy, but whatever you're "clearing away" always comes back. And that's what is troubling about the example you give about helping someone get through a bad breakup. The short term benefit is that the grief has superficially disappeared, but it's not gone. You've just blocked it off via suggestion. And when it comes back, in whatever circumstance it does, the explanation "I'm upset because of a bad breakup" won't be there. Your friend will become extrodinarily upset about something superficial when it reemerges, and will look to themselves and to others like a crazy person. It's short term gain that has no long term benefit, and which might even be harmful from that vantage. I don't doubt your good intentions, but really, please don't do this kind of thing.
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Aug 2, 2017 16:39
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Please do go ahead and cite the evidence that "it always comes back" and can't be beneficial. Do you think if someone is hypnotized and stops smoking, they're guaranteed to suddenly start smoking again for no reason years later? How is that different?
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Aug 2, 2017 16:45
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i like nice words
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Numerical Anxiety posted:I wouldn't separate absorbtion and suggestibility from dissociation - those are properties of a dissociative state, one sees them also in spontaneously generated cases. Honestly, the use of hypnotherapy seems like a low-rent alternative to CBT, one which works by jamming one's metaphorical fingers into a fault in the patient's mind. I could cite literature or personal experience with people who have undergone hypnotherapy, but whatever you're "clearing away" always comes back. And that's what is troubling about the example you give about helping someone get through a bad breakup. The short term benefit is that the grief has superficially disappeared, but it's not gone. You've just blocked it off via suggestion. And when it comes back, in whatever circumstance it does, the explanation "I'm upset because of a bad breakup" won't be there. Your friend will become extrodinarily upset about something superficial when it reemerges, and will look to themselves and to others like a crazy person. It's short term gain that has no long term benefit, and which might even be harmful from that vantage. I don't doubt your good intentions, but really, please don't do this kind of thing. So you are recommending hypnotherapy plus CBT? The hypnotherapy to help you get immediate relief and CBT to police your thoughts and wrangle the bad think when it comes back.
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Aug 2, 2017 18:27
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Anne Whateley posted:Please do go ahead and cite the evidence that "it always comes back" and can't be beneficial. Do you think if someone is hypnotized and stops smoking, they're guaranteed to suddenly start smoking again for no reason years later? How is that different? That's too straightforward a formulation. Take PTSD for example - there is a relatively great variation of symptoms that can arise from the fact of being traumatized. Fits of rage, depression or fatigue, somatic conversions, dissociation, nightmares, even sometimes hallucinations or a host of other things. PTSD gets grouped together as pertaining to its etiology, not according to specific symptoms. Here it's useful to look at the early case studies - Mesmer, Freud, Janet, Bernheim - on hypnotic treatment of hysteria (which, if you read them, would today often be classed as PTSD) - you can, via hypnotic suggestion, forbid a patient to manifest a given symptom and this may be effective. The problem is that they will come back days, weeks, or months later with a new set of symptoms, different from the original, but nevertheless still stemming from the experience of trauma, precisely because the cause hasn't been addressed, the patient hasn't been helped to come to terms it. Now, this kind of use of hypnosis, which belonged to the 19th century, is pretty crude, but the example the OP gave seemed along those lines. Respectable clinicians who make use of hypnosis today use it only as a supplement to other methods that actually bother to address the underlying dynamics that cause the symptoms. But even so, there are studies that show that while hypnotherapy might show short term benefits over straight CBT or other forms of treatment, these tend to disappear with time; the latter paper notes that there's no meaningful difference between the effects of CBT and CBT with hypnosis after three years. You can generate short term symptom reduction with hypnosis, but in the long run, it appears to not be all that helpful. In light of the early literature on hypnosis, one suspects that as pertains to lasting benefit, it's the CBT that is pulling the weight. Aleph Null posted:So you are recommending hypnotherapy plus CBT? The hypnotherapy to help you get immediate relief and CBT to police your thoughts and wrangle the bad think when it comes back. Some would take that position, but honestly I find hypnotherapy ethically questionable enough that I wouldn't claim that myself.
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Aug 2, 2017 20:25
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Numerical Anxiety posted:
Would you mind expanding on this? The clinical applications of hypnotherapy that I'm familiar with are essentially guided meditation. Are you referring to the kind of therapy that makes people confused about their memories or something like that?
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Aug 2, 2017 23:41
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No, I'm referring to hypnotherapy writ large. I mentioned earlier the marked similarities between the hypnotic state and that which victims of abuse put themselves into in order to survive. In dealing with someone who has a history of abuse (and keep in mind, one doesn't always know this in advance, people can and do omit such things), you risk putting them back precipitously in a rather awful place. There's a decent chance that such a therapy is hosed from go, and one might end up retraumatizing the patient. That's a practical matter, but more broadly, there's no therapy that isn't marked by power dynamics, but with hypnotherapy these are certainly attenuated. Even when the patient consents to such treatment, the heightened suggestability, disorganization of consciousness and lack of sponteneity leaves him or her rather passive (not completely passive, mind you, but still, rather moreso than in a normal condition); any initiative by and large belongs to the therapist in that situation, even if it's just an ostensibly idle mining for material. That runs counter to the aim of talk therapy, as far as I'm concerned. To put it somewhat bluntly, everyone has to come to terms with their own poo poo in their own way if there is to be a cure worthy of the name. There are methods of treatment, of course, but these exist mostly to facilitate a process through which the patient can begin to work through and sort out their own mental processes, symptoms and the like. It's not at all like dealing with purely organic maladies, where you identify a pathology, and there's a procedure that one follows as best one can. The therapist who knows in advance what this particular patient needs to do in order to get better is a bad therapist. One needs be flexible and responsive, to what is presented in this particular case, and support the patient's attempt to get control of their own mental life as best one can. Hypnosis, it seems to me, impedes that process by depriving the patient of a spontaneous agency. Can it be effective? To some extent, yes. Is it the best option? In my opinion, probably never. If it's getting press from the APA and other psychological societies again in recent years, it's probably because shorter and cheaper treatments that show immediate benefit are a joy to insurance companies and appealing to consumers, long term efficacy be damned.
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Aug 3, 2017 06:28
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This is not at all what this thread would be like. My mother used hypnosis to quit smoking and loving swore by it, but she's also the sort of person that WANTS to believe in that sort of stuff so maybe there's an argument for suggestibility and confirmation bias. She did quit smoking though after a near 2 pack a day habit so there's that. Howard Stern occasionally has a hypnotist dude on with hilarious results but that seems too easy to fake.
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Aug 5, 2017 16:04
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BiggerBoat posted:This is not at all what this thread would be like. After 9/11, several witnesses swore that they saw missiles coming out of the planes or whatever. People routinely swear that they are being haunted, see ghosts, have been in communication with the dead, etc. People who are "hypnotized" swear that they really were hypnotized because the alternative is to admit that they themselves were loving idiots and were had.
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Aug 6, 2017 12:19
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and a lot of the "hypnotized" people have admitted to going along with the show for a bit of a laugh at the encouragement of the hypnotist.
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Aug 6, 2017 21:26
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This thread reminds me of an excerpt from Dick Feynman's autobiography where he describes being hypnotized:Richard P. Feynman posted:In the great big dining hall with stained-glass windows, where we always ate, in our steadily
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Aug 7, 2017 05:41
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Okay, so, I've got one. It might sound like I'm taking the piss but I'm really not. I don't think I believe in hypnosis, but this is an interesting thread on both sides. If you can do all the things you claim, why aren't you a playboy millionaire? I mean, hell, when I was a lass we would dole out superpowers in my friend Jenna's backyard shed. Then we neighborhood kids would zoom around our suburb shouting about fireballs and superman. I always knew mind control would be the real winner, like, real as in "irl" real. But I never picked it in our games because just like in all the comic books we would just say it didn't work on the bad guys and bam, you were outta the game. But if you can really control someone else's movements to the point where you bet your phone (a multiple hundred-dollar device), why can't you find the gal who works second shift teller at your local bank branch? Take her out for a drink, hypnotize her to steal $500 every time you wink. You also claimed you can hypnotize people into forgetting the command, so no harm no foul - she wouldn't hate you. Don't give me the "morals" argument here; I'm being serious with this question. Like if you can really control people why aren't you inundated with free meals, free coffee, lower-priced cars, lower rent, a different girl every week, whatever jingles your jollies? If our hypothetical bank teller is too moral for this question, then what about a barista and a coffee discount? Same situation.
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Aug 7, 2017 07:05
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Thursday Next posted:Don't give me the "morals" argument here; I'm being serious with this question. Like if you can really control people why aren't you inundated with free meals, free coffee, lower-priced cars, lower rent, a different girl every week, whatever jingles your jollies? If our hypothetical bank teller is too moral for this question, then what about a barista and a coffee discount? Same situation. Successful con artists do live this way.
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Aug 7, 2017 20:24
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Thursday Next posted:Okay, so, I've got one. It might sound like I'm taking the piss but I'm really not. I don't think I believe in hypnosis, but this is an interesting thread on both sides. Ok, let's hypothesize that I have zero morals and am just going for $ without getting caught. One, I'd likely have to do any hypnotizing in private. Anything public would bring suspicion that could blow the whole thing up. So that would require gaining the confidence of someone to the point where they voluntarily do hypnosis, or, 'relaxation exercises' to get past their guard. And it would probably be best if they were highly hypnotizable, so like a 20-40% chance, otherwise I've wasted however many hours/days/weeks gaining their confidence. I probably wouldn't even bother with post-hypnotic suggestion, just have them do whatever theft while hypnotized, followed with an amnesia command. And here's where poo poo gets into the unknown - how long does the amnesia last? The memory is not destroyed, it's essentially locked away. So is it unreachable by anyone other than the original hypnotist, or is there the equivalent of a hypnotic cryptographer who can crack into a locked memory? And if they do crack into it, how to extract it intact, without being influenced by the second hypnotist to modify it to fit an expectation? Some of this was explored in Project Bluebird, but in the context of delivering a message - if I send Private Johnson through dangerous territory to our other camp with valuable information, can I lock it in his brain until SSgt #2 on the other end gives the code word that unlocks it? And could the enemy unlock it if they capture him? Can he self-hypnotize and induce anesthesia if they torture him? So we start to hit the limits of hypnotic studies - the moral barrier. Bluebird and Artichoke were kind of hosed up, but you can tell that they're trying to maintain some sort of basic moral code throughout. We don't have the data set we would need to establish the possibilities of becoming Mentok the Mind Taker and loving over everyone you meet for your advantage. So there's a lot of risk, and a hell of a lot of collateral damage that could possibly be traced back through basic physical evidence, even if testimony is obliterated. Let's say I start small and befriend Farmer's Market Mark, and implant a post-hypnotic suggestion that when I give him the Fonz gesture, he gives me three free zucchini and also thinks to himself what a cool dude I am. It probably works. It's his produce, and if anyone asks him why the hell he's giving me free stuff, he responds 'well he's a cool dude' and that's that. Now move up to the McDonald's cashier, same suggestion, this time for cheeseburgers. Now McDonald's Mark runs the risk of getting caught and fired. He likely wouldn't blame me, as I am a 'cool dude', but the gravy train has ended. Add in what I would guesstimate a 10% chance of the entire scheme getting figured out because Mark's guardian-angel part of the brain has worked around the amnesia bit. Still small potatoes at this point if I get caught. Now Mark's a bank teller. Same suggestion, this time for $500 cash. Mark's till is short, bank looks at the video log, I get a visit from the cops despite Mark's insistence that it was his doing and that I was a 'cool dude'. You can be more careful, create contingencies, etc., but sooner or later people get sloppy. Michael Fine was getting his jollies for months, perhaps years. God knows how many clients he actually did this to that haven't figured it out yet. Just because six came forward doesn't mean that six was the total amount, and the news stories intimate that more were involved. And his poo poo worked - his erotic suggestions worked, his amnesia suggestions worked - but he neglected to consider a suggestion to eliminate or re-direct suspicion caused by tangential physical evidence. Which leads to another frightening point - is Fine alone in his criminal activity, or are there others who are far better at erasing their tracks that haven't gotten caught doing any of this, and likely never will unless they get sloppy? I'm not a playboy millionaire, but I am financially and personally successful, and don't want to risk any of that on what could be considered theft/assault, or kidnapping if you're in Ohio. Plus the whole moral objection to it, and having a professional license that is easily removed. But yeah, barista and a coffee discount would be pretty easy.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:07
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"Hypnosis totally works guys!! but here's a bunch of reasons why it wont work ever" What a load of fucken bollocks.
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Aug 8, 2017 08:36
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504 posted:"Hypnosis totally works guys!! but here's a bunch of reasons why it wont work ever" ...says someone who won't try it.
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Aug 8, 2017 08:51
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Abugadu posted:...says someone who won't try it. I cant try it, I know its fake and doesn't work so I fall into the "anyone can resist hypnosis" group.
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Aug 8, 2017 10:29
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Then practice an induction and be the hypnotizer. The Elman is an easy to learn one, with built in checks to see how you're doing as you go. Just don't set yourself up for failure by going 'lol now this won't work but bear with me here'.
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Aug 8, 2017 11:34
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That doesn't address the first part of what he said: "I know it's fake." This poo poo is as fake as yoga instructors telling you to "breath in and feel the energy come up from the ground and into your soul, now exhale and feel the pain of your previous lives go away." e: There are a subset of the population who believe you can channel mystical energy through your body or whatever but that doesn't mean it's like real. Just means there are people who believe in this poo poo for various reasons.
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Aug 8, 2017 12:35
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Abugadu posted:Like 5 posts in a row of sourcless bullshit. Hey , you ever going to give a falsifiable definition and/or read and understand the sources you post? Because you're still not being super convincing and I'd actually enjoy engaging in a real (read: nonpseudoscience) discussion about this topic.
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Aug 8, 2017 20:53
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Boris Galerkin posted:That doesn't address the first part of what he said: "I know it's fake." Here's the thing, though - even if you are convinced it's fake, if you're a decent enough actor, and can find a friend, you can do an induction. I was convinced 95% of what I had read was made up bullshit until I did my first one. Captain Monkey posted:Hey , you ever going to give a falsifiable definition and/or read and understand the sources you post? Because you're still not being super convincing and I'd actually enjoy engaging in a real (read: nonpseudoscience) discussion about this topic. I do read and understand the sources I post, and I've given you all I can find as to the range of definitions it's been given. Like I said, what chance of convincing you do I have when all the journals, books, videos, performers, therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, whatever, do nothing for you? I'm some dude who read up on it, saw 'hey it's entertaining, but there might be something more to this' and went down a rabbit hole. You haven't really engaged in any discussion, you've just poo poo on people who come in and share their experiences. I mean, feel free to keep coming in and posting 'lol this op right here lol' however many times it makes you feel good, but maybe it'd be a more constructive use of your time to check it out for yourself. If you want to give it a go, PM me and I can send you a great, concise book on it, and a cool induction script.
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Aug 9, 2017 02:09
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What definition did you post that wasn't a rambling word salad that leaves you infinite wriggle room? I seem to have missed it. Describe what hypnosis is.
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Aug 9, 2017 07:10
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Abugadu posted:Here's the thing, though - even if you are convinced it's fake, if you're a decent enough actor, and can find a friend, you can do an induction. I was convinced 95% of what I had read was made up bullshit until I did my first one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2W0sq9ddU
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Aug 9, 2017 10:13
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Abugadu posted:Here's the thing, though - even if you are convinced it's fake, if you're a decent enough actor, and can find a friend, you can do an induction. I was convinced 95% of what I had read was made up bullshit until I did my first one. Ok, let's do this as a thought experiment. Let's say I get a bored friend to come humor you. He grabs an "induction script" somewhere and starts reading it to me with the goal being to hypnotize me. Now this brings the first question: 1) How will I know it's successful? Is there some kind of objective measurement I could use? I see two outcomes here really, he can tell me to do something I normally wouldn't do, let's say something innocent like "take off your pants bro," because that's really not something I'd do around friends in general, and the outcomes are either I do it or I don't. Say I do it: this means I was hypnotized. You've seen my posts here. You know how I feel about this whole thing. If, despite how I feel about this, I was actually hypnotized and did this against my will, then my question is 2a) Why isn't this way more common? If you can hypnotize me, a scientist who's been poo poo posting here because this is obviously bullshit, then why isn't the entire world hypnotized? Also, I would have been hypnotized by a skeptic as well, who was just doing it to humor me, who has never been "trained" in this "art" before. 2b) Now, imagine, if this random can do it, then why aren't the most powerful people in the world hypnotists? If a random can do this, then imagine what a person dedicating his life to hypnotism can do, you know? So now we have this situation where either my friend is a savant and god's gift to hypnotism to be able to do it so easily, he's faking it and so am I, or that hypnotism actually really is so easy and that it actually is common and we've all been hypnotized to not see it. If my friend is a savant then I guess he should have no trouble convincing the world, should he want to. If we're both faking it then it's fake. If it's actually really easy/common to do then we've just uncovered a New World Order/Illuminati type of conspiracy on this dead gay forums. But back to the other option: he tells me to take my pants off bro and I say lol no. Now what? Obviously I wasn't hypnotized. Maybe this was a bad method. Maybe he did it wrong. Or maybe it's not real. I could get another friend to try. I could get another script. I could go through binders full of people to try to hypnotize me. This isn't really efficient though, so the better question is: 3) If hypnotism was real, then what mechanism does it work through? If it's through voice, then presumably hypnotism could work through music, through TV, through the phone, through movies, etc. Which brings back the question: why isn't this more common? I mean I could go on and on. You could keep coming up with excuses "it works through voice but the person speaking needs to be in that room" and so on. Ok, then why don't entire rooms of people get hypnotized at stage shows instead of a selected handful of people? You could again bring more excuses "oh it's because it wasn't targeted at the audience." Ok but how does sound actually target a person? I mean I heard the same sounds coming from the same mouth from the same person as the guy standing on the stage. Why didn't it affect me? "Oh because…" At some point you've got to stop moving back the goal posts.
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Aug 9, 2017 13:44
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I'm really disappointed to live in a world where there is no magic, no God, and no mesmerism. Like, that would be neat, but lol nope. I'm using "mesmerism" instead of hypnotism because "hypnotism" is obviously a loaded word, a spectrum with "guided meditation and introspection" on one end and "woo-level surreptitious mind control" on the other. Whereas "mesmerism" is pretty squarely on the woo side of things.
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Aug 9, 2017 21:31
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Have you read any of the CIA's hypnosis documents? https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol4no1/html/v04i1a05p_0001.htm It's approaching it exactly from 'if this works, can we take over the world with it' perspective you're asking about. quote:In summary, it appears extremely doubtful that trance can be induced in resistant subjects. It may be possible to hypnotize a person without his being aware of it, but this would require a positive relationship between hypnotist and subject not likely to be found in the interrogation setting. Disregarding these difficulties, it is doubtful that proscribed behavior call be induced against the subject's wishes, though we must admit that crucial experiments to resolve this question have not yet been performed. The evidence also indicates that information obtained during hypnosis need not be accurate and may in fact contain untruths, despite hypnotic suggestions to the contrary. There are a few other CIA technical reports floating around that are more specific, but the general assessment was that while they could replicate a few hypnotic effects, it was pretty useless as a tool overall.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:41
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Boris Galerkin posted:1) How will I know it's successful? Is there some kind of objective measurement I could use? Yes, when he tells you your arm is frozen to your chair and that you're unable to lift it, and you try, and you can't. quote:I see two outcomes here really, he can tell me to do something I normally wouldn't do, let's say something innocent like "take off your pants bro," because that's really not something I'd do around friends in general, and the outcomes are either I do it or I don't. The hypnotism wouldn't be against your will, as anyone can fight being hypnotized and succeed. It's if you agree to be hypnotized - so the whole world obviously isn't going to agree to it. That, and I legit have no idea how long you can keep someone in it. I've done sessions that have gone a couple of hours, but nothing marathon-like. And you can do post-hypnotic suggestions, but mine needed repetition and reinforcement to be effective past a few hours. quote:Also, I would have been hypnotized by a skeptic as well, who was just doing it to humor me, who has never been "trained" in this "art" before. It is fairly easy to do, but it requires the time commitment of learning a little bit of the verbal patter, what signs to look for, and how to proceed when you run into any difficulties. People who dedicate their life to hypnotism can do some neat things. Help other people stop smoking, for example. Positive things. It can also be used for evil, obviously, but an amazing percentage of evil people are also lazy and stupid, and get caught fairly quickly. quote:But back to the other option: he tells me to take my pants off bro and I say lol no. Now what? Obviously I wasn't hypnotized. Maybe this was a bad method. Maybe he did it wrong. Or maybe it's not real. It works through the brain of the person being hypnotized. The hypnotist's voice is just the most efficient way to induce it. It's not 100% necessary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRTg2xHc1U0 Chase uses a couple of tricks not readily apparent in the video, but I don't believe this one was staged. He's doing it at a demonstration, so there's already the expectancy there. It's not more common because there usually isn't the intent to hypnotize, or the acceptance on the part of the person being hypnotized. Stage shows are a numbers game. There's a certain percentage of the populace that can be hypnotized easily, without individual attention - maybe you can't. Or maybe you were really intent on wanting to watch it happen to other people first. Or maybe it happened but you were paranoid about getting up on stage. But the performer weeds out the people that are the absolute easiest to work with by seeing who starts to go under with the most basic exercises, usually culminating with a catalepsy of the arms or hands, at which point you have more than enough people to do a show. The goal isn't to get the whole audience under. They probably could, eventually, it would just take a hell of a lot of time, and it isn't practical for what they're trying to do. People do do this over Skype, there's entire communities built around it. You don't have to be in the same room, it just helps to be able to add physical contact and balance stuff to make it happen. TV, movies, etc. have the ability, just not the motive. There are Youtube videos people use to get hypnotized, but again, these are even less effective than Skype, as you don't have the hypnotist adjusting to what they see, it's a generic coverall. It'll be enough to get the highly hypnotizable, but probably not the majority of people.
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Aug 10, 2017 04:23
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The essence of your post - Hypnotism only works if you let it, anyone can fight hypnotism and succeed! How is this fundamentally different from (not) doing something because someone asked you politely or talked you into it with convincing reasons? You're stuck in a god of the gaps sort of argument, where hypnotism is any sort of mesmerism that sunjectively seems to work. You have to realize that right? Like, this is some sort of 'voodoo is real but it only affects those who believe in it' level of silliness.
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Aug 10, 2017 14:30
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there is an .mp3 going around that says it will hypnotize you to ejaculate without touching yourself I listened to it and I didn't cum hypnosis is fake
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Aug 10, 2017 15:04
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Captain Monkey posted:The essence of your post - Hypnotism only works if you let it, anyone can fight hypnotism and succeed! It's fundamentally different because there's no politeness or reasoning needed, just the suggestion. Reasoning or begging one's pardon are appeals to the brain's critical factor, the gatekeeper of whether or not to do something or accept something. Once the brain's mechanism for evaluating and analyzing suggestion is lowered, there's just compliance. Or, in case of extremely objectionable suggestion, a break.
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Aug 11, 2017 06:02
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Abugadu posted:It's fundamentally different because there's no politeness or reasoning needed, just the suggestion. Reasoning or begging one's pardon are appeals to the brain's critical factor, the gatekeeper of whether or not to do something or accept something. Once the brain's mechanism for evaluating and analyzing suggestion is lowered, there's just compliance. Or, in case of extremely objectionable suggestion, a break. Hoo boy, ok.. Define critical factor and break for me, because this is still a word salad, and it's -still- a definition of what hypnosis is not (suggestion/reasoning) rather than a definition of what hypnosis is fundamentally.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:05
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Captain Monkey posted:Hoo boy, ok.. The critical factor is the part of you that analyzes incoming suggestions or statements and weighs them rationally - it's suspicion, skepticism, the part that asks 'why', the part that weighs the consequences of an action. A break is just my word for what happens when an extraordinarily objectionable suggestion or statement is given that snaps the critical factor back into place and brings the person back to full consciousness.
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Aug 15, 2017 01:26
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You sound like an MLM drone utterly convinced by someone bright enough to loud your stupid lil mind. Its all bullshit and you should be ashamed you're dumb enough to believe it
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Aug 15, 2017 12:43
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Abugadu posted:The critical factor is the part of you that analyzes incoming suggestions or statements and weighs them rationally - it's suspicion, skepticism, the part that asks 'why', the part that weighs the consequences of an action. A break is just my word for what happens when an extraordinarily objectionable suggestion or statement is given that snaps the critical factor back into place and brings the person back to full consciousness. How does your mind evaluate whether an incoming suggestion is objectionable if the part that evaluates incoming suggestions is bypassed? Research into hypnosis has repeatedly demonstrated that subjects in a trance state are still capable of making complex, nuanced judgments about whether or not they really want to comply with a suggestion.
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Aug 15, 2017 15:19
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Abugadu posted:The critical factor is the part of you that analyzes incoming suggestions or statements and weighs them rationally - it's suspicion, skepticism, the part that asks 'why', the part that weighs the consequences of an action. A break is just my word for what happens when an extraordinarily objectionable suggestion or statement is given that snaps the critical factor back into place and brings the person back to full consciousness. So you're positing this 'critical factor' (a term found exclusively on hypnosis websites, btw) as a part of the human mind. What about hypnosis overrides it? What causes it to break? What physiological processes happen to 'override' this 'critical factor' and cause a 'break'? Does your theory not extend that far? Is this all just ~*Mysteries of the Brain*~? Because modern neuroscience can do a lot better (and has.) Your theory needs to be more robust and useful than other theories. Right now, it's a few vague terms thrown at each other until they sort of hang together if you squint.
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Aug 17, 2017 03:57
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