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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


Flatscan posted:

Very much so, especially when he has more regular cast than just Harold to interact with.

Hmm, I'll stick with it then. I'm only about a 3rd of the way thru the first season.

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Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011

I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!
I watched the AlphaGo documentary on Netflix recently and it made me think about this show a lot.

AlphaGo is an AI developed by an AI company called DeepMind which was later purchased by Google. They developed AlphaGo to play a game called Go which is 2500+ years old and the rules are basically non-existent. The game is played on a square board, and each player takes turns placing pebbles onto the board anywhere they please and in the end you do some math/counting to figure out who won.



Because you can place your stones anywhere and in turn your opponent can also place theirs anywhere it makes it a really difficult game to solve. In fact, there are more legal Go positions than there are atoms in the entire universe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_and_mathematics posted:

It has been estimated that the observable universe contains around 10^80 atoms, far fewer than the number of possible legal positions of regular board size (m=n=19).

What's special about AlphaGo was that it used a method of machine learning where it wasn't taught anything about the game other than the rules ("place one pebble each turn anywhere that isn't already occupied") and how to count the points each player has. The AI played against itself over and over again, each time trying out new moves and recording what worked and what didn't. Eventually it reached a state of knowledge where it was straight up inventing/playing new moves that no human would have ever played, because no human is capable of comprehending the affects of plays so many moves in advance.

Its first test was against a European Go master, which AlphaGo won 5-0. He's the guy featured in the documentary with lots of commentary. Lots of people were apparently saying that this was just a European master, AlphaGo wouldn't stand a chance against a traditional Chinese/Korean master, so AlphaGo challenged the top ranking Go player in the world (who happens to be Korean) to five games as well.

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/sadness-beauty-watching-googles-ai-play-go/ posted:

[The] game was approaching the end of its first hour when AlphaGo instructed its human assistant to place a black stone in a largely open area on the right-hand side of the 19-by-19 grid that defines this ancient game. And just about everyone was shocked.

"That's a very surprising move," said one of the match's English language commentators, who is himself a very talented Go player. Then the other chuckled and said: "I thought it was a mistake." But perhaps no one was more surprised than Lee Sedol, who stood up and left the match room. "He had to go wash his face or something—just to recover," said the first commentator.

Even after Lee Sedol returned to the table, he didn't quite know what to do, spending nearly 15 minutes considering his next play. AlphaGo's move didn't seem to connect with what had come before. [...] The commentators couldn't even begin to evaluate the merits of the move.

Then, over the next three hours, AlphaGo went on to win the game, taking a two-games-to-none lead in this best-of-five contest.

[...]

"Yesterday, I was surprised," he said through an interpreter, referring to Game One. "But today I am speechless. If you look at the way the game was played, I admit, it was a very clear loss on my part. From the very beginning of the game, there was not a moment in time when I felt that I was leading."

He goes on to express how he now just wants to win one game. Days prior to that when he was asked how many he thought he'd win, he without hesitation said "5-0" or "4-1." (The game series did end at 4-1, but in favor of AlphaGo).


ANYWAY, this reminded me of this show because if you think about it this kinda sounds exactly like what the Director is. The Director AI just uses quantum computing or whatever to simulate moves decades in advance to see which the best moves are, and it knows what the best moves are from self-simulation/playing against itself like AlphaGo did. The game board is "the past, literally anywhere on Earth" and the rules are "you can't send a traveler back further than the a previously sent traveler". It makes plans with knowledge of looking forward tens of years into the future, that individually probably don't make sense at all, much like AlphaGo's "god move" described above."

I highly recommend watching this documentary.

e: One of the funny things about AlphaGo was that the AI figured out early on that winning the game just meant that it needed to have 1 point more than the opponent. To AlphaGo a score of 100 to 99 was no different than a score of 500 to 1. So just like how the NBA the coaches will start benching their star players when victory is all but assured, AlphaGo would just start playing random nonsense moves when it's algorithm was highly confident that it would win in all the combinations of moves it has forward computed. That move quoted above happened very early on so they're pretty sure it wasn't doing that then, but in the documentary there was a scene where everyone was confused when it would play dumb moves towards the end of some matches which they later found out was because it was just confident it would win no matter what and therefore had no reason to try anymore.

Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Feb 25, 2018

Kegslayer
Jul 23, 2007

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:

So I just started PoI....Does Jim Caviezl ever get any better than "plank of wood with the word actor written on it"

It's played like that on purpose.

latinotwink1997
Jan 2, 2008

Taste my Ball of Hope, foul dragon!


Boris Galerkin posted:

I watched the AlphaGo documentary on Netflix recently and it made me think about this show a lot.

AlphaGo is an AI developed by an AI company called DeepMind which was later purchased by Google. They developed AlphaGo to play a game called Go which is 2500+ years old and the rules are basically non-existent. The game is played on a square board, and each player takes turns placing pebbles onto the board anywhere they please and in the end you do some math/counting to figure out who won.



Because you can place your stones anywhere and in turn your opponent can also place theirs anywhere it makes it a really difficult game to solve. In fact, there are more legal Go positions than there are atoms in the entire universe:


What's special about AlphaGo was that it used a method of machine learning where it wasn't taught anything about the game other than the rules ("place one pebble each turn anywhere that isn't already occupied") and how to count the points each player has. The AI played against itself over and over again, each time trying out new moves and recording what worked and what didn't. Eventually it reached a state of knowledge where it was straight up inventing/playing new moves that no human would have ever played, because no human is capable of comprehending the affects of plays so many moves in advance.

Its first test was against a European Go master, which AlphaGo won 5-0. He's the guy featured in the documentary with lots of commentary. Lots of people were apparently saying that this was just a European master, AlphaGo wouldn't stand a chance against a traditional Chinese/Korean master, so AlphaGo challenged the top ranking Go player in the world (who happens to be Korean) to five games as well.


He goes on to express how he now just wants to win one game. Days prior to that when he was asked how many he thought he'd win, he without hesitation said "5-0" or "4-1." (The game series did end at 4-1, but in favor of AlphaGo).


ANYWAY, this reminded me of this show because if you think about it this kinda sounds exactly like what the Director is. The Director AI just uses quantum computing or whatever to simulate moves decades in advance to see which the best moves are, and it knows what the best moves are from self-simulation/playing against itself like AlphaGo did. The game board is "the past, literally anywhere on Earth" and the rules are "you can't send a traveler back further than the a previously sent traveler". It makes plans with knowledge of looking forward tens of years into the future, that individually probably don't make sense at all, much like AlphaGo's "god move" described above."

I highly recommend watching this documentary.

e: One of the funny things about AlphaGo was that the AI figured out early on that winning the game just meant that it needed to have 1 point more than the opponent. To AlphaGo a score of 100 to 99 was no different than a score of 500 to 1. So just like how the NBA the coaches will start benching their star players when victory is all but assured, AlphaGo would just start playing random nonsense moves when it's algorithm was highly confident that it would win in all the combinations of moves it has forward computed. That move quoted above happened very early on so they're pretty sure it wasn't doing that then, but in the documentary there was a scene where everyone was confused when it would play dumb moves towards the end of some matches which they later found out was because it was just confident it would win no matter what and therefore had no reason to try anymore.

Are you saying a computer learned to be lazy?!

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

latinotwink1997 posted:

Are you saying a computer learned to be lazy?!

The American workforce is hosed.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011

I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!

latinotwink1997 posted:

Are you saying a computer learned to be lazy?!

I think it’s like literally a law of nature/physics that everything wants to do the bare minimum to function.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007

AlphaGo was trained on a standard 19x19 Go board, if it attempted to play a human player on a 17x17 or 21x21 or standard 9x9 learning board, the human player would absolutely destroy it because it is extremely stupid.

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG

Zebulon posted:

I figured he just picked up skills along the way that would be useful to his survival and continued comfortable life. His access to the back channel system would likely be due to having had access to the guy who made that system, which IIRC is what 004's job was before mental illness took hold.

I just finished watching and enjoyed the hell out of this, especially the last few episodes of S2. re: 001 having all the science poo poo, keep in mind he's tortured hundreds of other travelers to death and probably got gobs of information of all sorts out of them before they died.

Also re: the weird ambiguous rules about when it's OK for the Director to grab a host and when it's not, it comes across to me that the Director has some sort of hard wired ethical rules like the Asimov Laws of Robotics


Comrade Fakename posted:

I just finished watching the two seasons, and while I enjoyed it, I am somewhat baffled by what they’re doing with David. Why have they gone out of their way to make a side character who also happens to be the kindest man on Earth? There are multiple B-plots concerning him where all that happens is that he does something incredibly kind. There’s no mini-arc for him, or anyone else. No one one learns any life lesson. We just take a moment away from the main sci-fi plot to watch David risk infection by a plague in order to feed the homeless, apropos of nothing.

It’s really weird.

Since every main character has their prime relationship completely wrecked (except Phillip I guess) at the end of S2 that's probably going to be a major focus of S3 :shrug:

Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Feb 26, 2018

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


Flesh Forge posted:

I just finished watching and enjoyed the hell out of this, especially the last few episodes of S2. re: 001 having all the science poo poo, keep in mind he's tortured hundreds of other travelers to death and probably got gobs of information of all sorts out of them before they died.

Also re: the weird ambiguous rules about when it's OK for the Director to grab a host and when it's not, it comes across to me that the Director has some sort of hard wired ethical rules like the Asimov Laws of Robotics



Since every main character has their prime relationship completely wrecked (except Phillip I guess) at the end of S2 that's probably going to be a major focus of S3 :shrug:

The Director is largely Asimov compliant. Except in the first episode of season 2 when 001 tells Perrow that the Director isn’t capable of taking a life that wasn’t already about to end. But then it turns around an fries the brain of his business partner and his wife.

Flatscan
Mar 27, 2001

Outlaw Journalist

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:

The Director is largely Asimov compliant. Except in the first episode of season 2 when 001 tells Perrow that the Director isn’t capable of taking a life that wasn’t already about to end. But then it turns around an fries the brain of his business partner and his wife.

Unreliable narrator.

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG
Yeah I can let those slide, considering the source.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

Jingleheimer posted:

I just finished watching the show and it was awesome. One thing I noticed after watching a handful of episodes is that David is what you would get if you combined Chris Pratt with Jim Gaffigan, I can not unsee that.

Ray looks like a tiny tim olyphant.

Leathal
Oct 29, 2004

wanna be like gucci?
lil buddy eat your vegetables
Picked up for S3 as a Netflix exclusive and Showcase out of the picture. Did it have awful ratings in Canada, or did Netflix toss a bunch of cash to Showcase for full control? Betting its the former, but on the other hand I’m pretty sure Netflix came right out and said Travelers is one of the most binge watched shows on the service.

“Most binged-watched show on Netflix” “Ratings so bad, even Showcase wouldn’t give us three seasons”

Gaunab
Feb 13, 2012
LUFTHANSA YOU FUCKING DICKWEASEL

Leathal posted:

Picked up for S3 as a Netflix exclusive and Showcase out of the picture. Did it have awful ratings in Canada, or did Netflix toss a bunch of cash to Showcase for full control? Betting its the former, but on the other hand I’m pretty sure Netflix came right out and said Travelers is one of the most binge watched shows on the service.

“Most binged-watched show on Netflix” “Ratings so bad, even Showcase wouldn’t give us three seasons”

That sounds good. No offense to any Canadians, but Canada was holding the show back.

Flesh Forge
Jan 31, 2011

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY DOG
I can't think of very many shows where the concept is "vast conspiracy of spies struggling to actually make the world a better place. No, really, that's what it's about :shrug:"

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




I don’t think most of the Canadian sci fi stuff coming out has been getting great ratings. All it takes is that special Battlestar Galactica to come by but most end up being more like Continuum or Dark Matter.

tadashi
Feb 20, 2006

Leathal posted:

Picked up for S3 as a Netflix exclusive and Showcase out of the picture. Did it have awful ratings in Canada, or did Netflix toss a bunch of cash to Showcase for full control? Betting its the former, but on the other hand I’m pretty sure Netflix came right out and said Travelers is one of the most binge watched shows on the service.

“Most binged-watched show on Netflix” “Ratings so bad, even Showcase wouldn’t give us three seasons”

I think Travelers is brilliant because it's just a law enforcement procedural but it tricks viewers into thinking it's a spy show, or something else.

Producers loving love procedural shows because they do well in ratings because audiences can't quit them.

Leathal
Oct 29, 2004

wanna be like gucci?
lil buddy eat your vegetables

Invalid Validation posted:

I don’t think most of the Canadian sci fi stuff coming out has been getting great ratings. All it takes is that special Battlestar Galactica to come by but most end up being more like Continuum or Dark Matter.

I found the actual Netflix list of "most binge-watched shows" and it looks like they meant it in the most literal way possible (as in - these are the shows most likely to get viewers to watch multiple episodes back to back) because there's no way this list represents the most popular shows on Netflix. Mystery solved I guess.

1. American Vandal
2. 3%
3. 13 Reasons Why
4. Anne with an E
5. Riverdale
6. Ingobernable
7. Travelers
8. The Keepers
9. The OA
10. The Confession Tapes

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




Yea that’s pretty interesting. Wonder what that means for Netflix? We get a ton of subs for at least a month so it’s cool to pay for these shows that are somewhat popular? Streaming is a weird place.

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


Invalid Validation posted:

I don’t think most of the Canadian sci fi stuff coming out has been getting great ratings. All it takes is that special Battlestar Galactica to come by but most end up being more like Continuum or Dark Matter.

Whoa there tiger, lumping Continuum in with the likes of Dark Matter, thems fightin' words :ese:

Invalid Validation
Jan 13, 2008




I like Continuum a lot but let’s not pretend it was a ratings powerhouse.

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


Invalid Validation posted:

I like Continuum a lot but let’s not pretend it was a ratings powerhouse.

Oh not even remotely, Dark Matter was just horrifically bad

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!

Marmaduke! posted:

Yeah the male audience can pretend he's their self insert that represents his kind and decent they are (as he does some insertion of his own IYKWIM). Also when they kill him off everyone will be real angry at his killer. So if they decide they want the Director to be the ultimate evil, they'll have him overwrite him. A bit like the lass in the final seasons of Angel I guess.

I'm fully expecting there to be some kind of big-deal hidden protocol that allows for mass overwrites to prevent the Traveler program from being revealed, and all the significant others of the team will get overwritten as part of that alongside a boatload of fbi agents and people who saw the videos.

I mean it's possible that the government kind of drinks the kool-aid too and lets travelers do whatever they want, but I highly doubt it, and exposure seems like a big risk to the future that can't be allowed to happen no matter the cost.

And since the Director's major flaw seems to be not understanding the human psyche and how they deal with the wild trauma that taking over someone's life causes, and the bonds of friendship they form with their team, it'll probably be like "meet your new support team guys, enjoy working together!" instead of sending these newcomers off to be a cell somewhere else.

With how often the protocols have come up there's no way there isn't a top-secret one that very few people would even know about, with 27 quite possibly being the only character we've seen so far who knows it. I also haven't watched the show religiously so they may have already done a totally hidden protocol, it wouldn't surprise me.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
Or they do mass overwrites and some peoples old psyches leak through like we've seen before. These might form a basis for some proto-faction shenanigans. Who knows, it's time travel.

vvvv it was waaay better than I expected but yeah I def got the feel after a while that yeah this is definitely a procedural.

Milo and POTUS fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Apr 10, 2018

SpaceAceJase
Nov 8, 2008

and you
have proved
to be...

a real shitty poster,
and a real james
I binged this show after I read the thread and I really want more!

werdnam
Feb 16, 2011
The scientist does not study nature because it is useful to do so. He studies it because he takes pleasure in it, and he takes pleasure in it because it is beautiful. If nature were not beautiful it would not be worth knowing, and life would not be worth living. -- Henri Poincare
I just finished S2 today. Spoilers ahead.

First, I still don't quite understand what was up with Traveler 004. My understanding is that the T001 talking to Simon as he finished the machine was just his own head-T001, since it (very pointedly) did not interact with the real world and was pretty ranty. But then what happened to Simon when he fired up the machine on himself? Where did he go? Does the machine need both bodies present for the switcheroo? By the way, my secret hope for S3 is that Simon (or his body-swapped consciousness) comes back to lead the revolution against the tyranny of the Director --- the speech head-T001 made pretty clearly indicates Simon is not real happy with the Cult of the Director.

Second, I can't believe they beat up David. He's so nice. I hope he and Marcy can make nice again. If David could get over Marcy pretending to be mentally disabled for years (come on, who really can let that sort of thing go and let the person move into your apartment?), then I'm pretty sure he can get over her actually being a time traveler from the future. Granted, a time traveler who overwrote his patient ... okay, maybe he can't get over that.

Third, I liked the surprise reveal of Marcy 1.0's memories of being experimented on by T001 as an interesting twist, but wasn't that a little ... convenient? I mean, the show had to connect the dots for our main characters somehow, but not everything has to have happened to our main characters.

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!
Nap Ghost
Marcy (the host body) being written on twice was a bit convenient yes, but it at least satisfied the real mystery:

how and why a mentally challenged adult had such exquisitely sculpted eyebrows and finely manicured nails

:ms:

Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE
Googling Traveler 004 gives some interesting results. :gizz:

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!

SpaceAceJase posted:

I binged this show after I read the thread and I really want more!

Next season coming to Netflix eventually, probably within a year. I think they really opened up the possibilities of the premise last season, particularly with the episode that showed them progressively trying to save the team again and again, and only succeeding because those actions had led to more people getting killed closer to where they had to be to help them. That being a thing really dealt into the time travel screwiness that's possible beyond "You're from the future and now you're in the past, get to fixin' stuff!"

I hope we also get some answers to questions like "Why don't they overwrite all the world leaders and use that power base to fix the future?" We've already seen that if they really want someone all it takes is a live broadcast or cell phone picture of them. All I can think is that they want to avoid really messing up the timeline, but at the same time their goal is to mess up the timeline to some degree. Although what would really be cool? If all the leaders actually ARE overwritten and that's one of the top secrets of the Director's organization, and yet even that still isn't enough because they can't just have the leaders of Saudi Arabia, for example, suddenly declare women have full rights without causing a ton of trouble, and in most other countries the leader isn't making all the laws/rules.

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!
Wait. How the gently caress did Marcy exist again at the library in S1E1? Was that one scene from prior to her first upload? Did the Traveller eventually end up the same as Original Marcy?

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


NowonSA posted:

Next season coming to Netflix eventually, probably within a year. I think they really opened up the possibilities of the premise last season, particularly with the episode that showed them progressively trying to save the team again and again, and only succeeding because those actions had led to more people getting killed closer to where they had to be to help them. That being a thing really dealt into the time travel screwiness that's possible beyond "You're from the future and now you're in the past, get to fixin' stuff!"

I hope we also get some answers to questions like "Why don't they overwrite all the world leaders and use that power base to fix the future?" We've already seen that if they really want someone all it takes is a live broadcast or cell phone picture of them. All I can think is that they want to avoid really messing up the timeline, but at the same time their goal is to mess up the timeline to some degree. Although what would really be cool? If all the leaders actually ARE overwritten and that's one of the top secrets of the Director's organization, and yet even that still isn't enough because they can't just have the leaders of Saudi Arabia, for example, suddenly declare women have full rights without causing a ton of trouble, and in most other countries the leader isn't making all the laws/rules.

It's been renewed for S3 http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/travelers-renewed-season-3-netflix-1202728264/ - I'd guess it's back around the end of the year.

wellwhoopdedooo posted:

Wait. How the gently caress did Marcy exist again at the library in S1E1? Was that one scene from prior to her first upload? Did the Traveller eventually end up the same as Original Marcy?

Huh? Marcy 1.0 landed right as those 4 guys were about to kill the host. Traveler arrives and beats the crap out of them. 1.0 Marcy was dying because of the host's preexisting damage. 027 resets to Marcy 2.0 who kinda sorta remembers stuff.

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:

It's been renewed for S3 http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/travelers-renewed-season-3-netflix-1202728264/ - I'd guess it's back around the end of the year.


Huh? Marcy 1.0 landed right as those 4 guys were about to kill the host. Traveler arrives and beats the crap out of them. 1.0 Marcy was dying because of the host's preexisting damage. 027 resets to Marcy 2.0 who kinda sorta remembers stuff.

Ah, big time gap from S1->S2. Got it, I think.

Also, at ~26:30:

David: Important work? At the library?
Marcy: No. Not at the libary.

Completely lost my poo poo. I might be drunk. e: new thread title please: Traveller 0420, your mission is to watch this now - No. Not at the libary.

wellwhoopdedooo fucked around with this message at 05:12 on May 15, 2018

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE
Mar 31, 2010


wellwhoopdedooo posted:

Ah, big time gap from S1->S2. Got it, I think.

Also, at ~26:30:

David: Important work? At the library?
Marcy: No. Not at the libary.

Completely lost my poo poo. I might be drunk. e: new thread title please: Traveller 0420, your mission is to watch this now - No. Not at the libary.

Yeah you should probably give this one a redo mang, probably some details you missed. There isn't a huge time jump between S1 and S2. Not much of any at all actually.

wellwhoopdedooo
Nov 23, 2007

Pound Trooper!

HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:

Yeah you should probably give this one a redo mang, probably some details you missed. There isn't a huge time jump between S1 and S2. Not much of any at all actually.

fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuck....

I am Marcy.

e: I was refereing to the brain-gently caress feeling she has just before her first seizure, not making fun. Sorry! Time for bed I think.

e2: goddamn, imagine this show with the Legion soundtrack. Okay GN.

wellwhoopdedooo fucked around with this message at 06:05 on May 15, 2018

Octy
Apr 1, 2010

TMMadman posted:

When did we start talking about Tavelers? I binged the show the other week and found it to be pretty good.

For example, I stayed up late to watch a couple extra episodes and in the meantime, I've fallen asleep trying to watch the first episode of Altered Carbon like 3 times.

edit - Lol, wait, I was thinking this was a different thread. I forgot I had bookedmarked this one. Travelers is a good show and I figured out what happened in the last episode rather quickly. :smuggo:

Yeah, I just binged both seasons in the last few weeks and loved it. I don't know what's going on half the time but it's still good. I'm also not sure why so many people in this thread are calling it a bad show.

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Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES
Just marathoned this (again).

Looking forward to S3!

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