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The loan I mentioned is my student loan, yes. Yeah, unfortunately not touching the 401k is not an option, so the question is more how much should we touch. We need enough to pay for lawyers, we need enough to get new places and make them livable, I need a car, we need enough to pay the entry fees for a full time daycare which is gonna be hellishly expensive, and we don't have enough savings to cover that. So the money has to come from where we've got it, and that's the 401k. I figure it's better than putting it all on credit cards or something! I'm actually leaning towards liquidating about $20k of it right now. That will leave $16k split between the two of us, or $8k a piece. Which feels like it's practically nothing, but I guess it's not really nothing and still worth keeping? Can always liquidate the rest later if necessary. SiGmA_X posted:Is your wife going to get a job? If not, you definitely need to make a good amount more money. She's certainly going to be trying, and her father has offered to help support her until that happens. He also wants her to move into one of his houses (he owns like four houses that are sitting empty because he keeps buying land and building them but then decides its too much hassle to rent them out) but she's currently taking the "hell no" stand on that, since it would put her two hours away and she wants to stay near her kid. Also, I suspect she desperately wants to never again live in one of her dad's abandoned homes. He's not a reliable person, and it would definitely come with strings. For the immediate future, I'm also going to want to get our son into full time daycare ASAP, so she can start looking for jobs and because the chance might pass soon, since it's sign up season now. An aside on retirement... And to be honest, as much as everyone tells me I should, I don't really give a poo poo about retirement. The only reason I have a 401k at all is because it's tax free, otherwise all that money would be going into a future fund of some sort for my kid or some other sort of direct investment (I care about savings and investing in the future, it's my personal 401k retirement fund I don't give a poo poo about). Plus, based on my family history the chance of me being able to enjoy retiring at all is exactly equal to the chance of them finding a cure for alzheimer's and dementia and probably heart disease too, so... I don't know if my goal is or even should be retirement at any point? Saving for retirement just feels like a huge gamble - will they fix the medical issues that destroyed my ancestors young? Will the stock market offer reasonable returns long term? Will social security be enough to cover how I end up living? Will I ever want to stop working (I can't imagine it, but maybe!)? Will I end up retiring during a crash and having those savings decimated like some other people I know did? I'm not much of a gambler, and it feels like that money could be spent on more reliable things, on guaranteed benefits that will actually make the lives of me and my kid better long term, instead of hoping things work out and we have a windfall 35 years down the road. That is probably a dumb way to think about it, but it's hard to think about it anyway else.
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Feb 6, 2018 17:54
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If you're NOT saving for retirement, you're the ballsiest gambler of them all. It's a guarantee we'll all be too old to work one day, and if you're going to be riddled with dementia you'll need even more retirement savings than most. You listed a lot of bad things that could happen that would make retirement funds unnecessary, but they're far far far less likely than you getting old and unable to work. Also you sound pretty depressed. Not sad and mopey, but like you don't give a poo poo or have feelings. A lawyer is good but you need a therapist just as much, imho
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Feb 6, 2018 18:17
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:If you're NOT saving for retirement, you're the ballsiest gambler of them all. I don't know about that. It's not like I'm planning on throwing the money in the chipper, the point is obviously to spend it on making a better future now, while I am guaranteed to have the opportunity to make those other direct investments, instead of letting someone else use my money to do speculations. It just feels like it would be better to put that money in something with actual value, like my son's education, then leave it to the whims of a market based primarily and foremost on hoping the future is full of even bigger suckers than the present day. And it's not like I'm just running with that feeling - I've saved up as much as I have and am obviously considering not draining it all, and I'd be putting in more regardless. It just seems like in terms of "all possible investments I could be making", a 401k is by far one of the riskiest. I've also admitted that my feelings on that issue might not adequately reflect reality. GoGoGadgetChris posted:Also you sound pretty depressed. Not sad and mopey, but like you don't give a poo poo or have feelings. A lawyer is good but you need a therapist just as much, imho What do you mean? I very much give a poo poo about a whole lot of stuff and while I would very much like to not have feelings for a few weeks, I am actually feeling a whole lot right now. But this isn't really the place for that, you know? I thankfully have a support network for emotional support and I am using it. What I don't have is a support network for financial (or even legal, really) advice of any sort. Edit: Also man retirement poo poo is super loving complicated, I hate dealing with this stuff. All the liquidation will be coming from a single older account, one I probably should have rolled over to my current employer or to some sort of IRA by now I'm sure. Do you guys know of any good resources for understand all this stuff? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Feb 6, 2018 |
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Feb 6, 2018 19:38
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i have incredible incremental endogenous risks to my health and well being so instead of trying to hedge for that gently caress it bro YOLO
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Feb 6, 2018 19:56
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I don't really understand what you're saying and just for my own curiosity: What do you mean by direct investment? I assume it's separate from your son's education. Most people save for their kids' education and save for retirement at the same time. Do you expect your son to care for you in your later years? When you say you care about savings and investment but not in your 401k what are you saving for if not for retirement?
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Feb 6, 2018 20:10
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He's afraid of the stock market and doesn't seem to understand it very well. I HIGHLY recommend reading the jlcollinsnh.com "Stock Series" to learn why you aren't just giving your money to fatcats to speculate with. Also, planning for your own retirement is the best gift you could ever give your son. You will be saddling him with a tremendous burden if you don't, because he will take care of you and make sacrifices for you even if you don't want him to.
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Feb 6, 2018 20:12
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:If you're NOT saving for retirement, you're the ballsiest gambler of them all. GlyphGryph posted:I don't know about that. It's not like I'm planning on throwing the money in the chipper, the point is obviously to spend it on making a better future now, while I am guaranteed to have the opportunity to make those other direct investments, instead of letting someone else use my money to do speculations. It just feels like it would be better to put that money in something with actual value, like my son's education, then leave it to the whims of a market based primarily and foremost on hoping the future is full of even bigger suckers than the present day. Taking care of your retirement planning now could save your son a lot of trouble a few decades in the future. GlyphGryph posted:Edit: For actual resources, /r/personalfinance's wiki is helpful. There's also the retirement savings thread here.
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Feb 6, 2018 20:15
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Haifisch posted:It doesn't have to be complicated. Put at least enough in your 401k to max out employer match. Put the max($5500/yr) into a Roth IRA if you qualify for one, ideally with Vanguard or another trusted low-fee company. If you don't, put it in a regular IRA instead(or put more into your 401k, but your employer's options may be worse than putting the money into a Vanguard fund or something). Set everything to target date funds(which automatically adjust your investments to be less risky as you near expected retirement age) and forget about it. Is the $5,500 max a year for the Roth still a limit if it's part of a rollover? So I couldn't roll over the whole thing? Although I suppose I'd be wanting to actually roll this over into two separate IRAs, one for me and one for my soon to be ex wife, and keep equal amounts in both... My employer doesn't do matching, but they do make their own contributions that happen whether I add anything or not - does that mean I should just be sticking my own contributions directly into a Roth/traditional IRA instead, or still adding them to the 401k? I'll check out the other more relevant threads as well. potatoducks posted:When you say you care about savings and investment but not in your 401k what are you saving for if not for retirement? I was under the impression you could pull funds from your "retirement" account so long as you were old enough, regardless of whether you actually retired. So it's an investment I can make that will provide a source of supplementary income in my older years, rather than being part of any actual retirement plan. I have no desire to be subjected to the everlasting nightmare that most people seem to dream of and try to live when they think about "retirement" - I don't want to end up like my healthy and financially secure relatives any more than I want to end up like the ones that are functionally braindead or actually dead. (okay, I'd actually far prefer the financially secure do-nothings of the first group, but neither are appealing). And hey, if I save enough, I'll be able to do public service work or some sort I couldn't afford to live off of on its own (I guess that one might technically count as "retirement" of sorts though?). So mostly: It's a tax free investment, hoping I get more out of it than I put into it? That's assuming I live long enough and remain of sound mind, of course. potatoducks posted:What do you mean by direct investment? Spending the money on things with the potential to generate actual long-term utility and value and further income generation. I mean education is a good example of that and the return on value for early childhood education especially is very good... and frankly spending the money on some decent cognitive behavioural therapy might be the same, because even if I don't think I'm properly depressed or emotionally void like the poster above implied, I recognize there are many ways I not particularly well-adapted either. But there are plenty of traditional financial investments that are still direct investments in the generation of future wealth. GoGoGadgetChris posted:Also, planning for your own retirement is the best gift you could ever give your son. You will be saddling him with a tremendous burden if you don't, because he will take care of you and make sacrifices for you even if you don't want him to. I guess I do need to take into consideration that I might fail him as a parent and that this is a possible outcome, sweet as the sentiment may be. I'll be very cross with him if he wastes money he could be investing in his own life and his own children on my wrinkly rear end, but I guess it's a possibility that needs to be prepared for in case I break both my hips or something. >:| Even if I was loaded I would kill myself before inflicting a dementia/alzheimer-ridden walking corpse on him, though. GoGoGadgetChris posted:He's afraid of the stock market and doesn't seem to understand it very well. I HIGHLY recommend reading the jlcollinsnh.com "Stock Series" to learn why you aren't just giving your money to fatcats to speculate with. I think "suspicious" would be more accurate than "afraid", although the charge of ignorance is fair. I think "suspicion and caution when ignorant of the details or true nature investment" is a pretty good default stance though. Education is still worthwhile, so I will check that out regardless.
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Feb 6, 2018 20:44
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The first entry in the jlcollinsnh.com stocks series is called "How I Failed My Daughter" and will be a good read.
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Feb 6, 2018 20:46
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What's the plan when you get too old to work? Bullet? If that's the plan then I agree you don't need to save for retirement.
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Feb 6, 2018 21:22
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potatoducks posted:What's the plan when you get too old to work? Bullet? Dude, the reason I urged him to have a therapist is that his post seem vaguely suicidal to me. Planning to give away all of your wealth, and having a hard time imagining a future for yourself are two very significant warning signs.
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Feb 6, 2018 21:25
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GlyphGryph posted:Spending the money on things with the potential to generate actual long-term utility and value and further income generation. I mean education is a good example of that and the return on value for early childhood education especially is very good... and frankly spending the money on some decent cognitive behavioural therapy might be the same, because even if I don't think I'm properly depressed or emotionally void like the poster above implied, I recognize there are many ways I not particularly well-adapted either. I still have no idea what you mean by direct investment. It's not a phrase that people use. Did you make it up? Can you give some specific examples other than your kid's education? Like those "traditional financial investments that are still direct investments in the generation of future wealth."
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Feb 6, 2018 21:25
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potatoducks posted:I still have no idea what you mean by direct investment. It's not a phrase that people use. Did you make it up? Forget the term, which is not a real accepted term because I don't know the real, accepted terms and I'm probably speaking out of gross ignorance. Also, I feel like this is all getting kind of irrelevant, since I'm trying to do what you guys are saying anyway and keep as much in my 401k as I can while further educating myself? Right now my plan is to take out as little as I can to feel like I can weather the next several months with some level of security, and keep the rest in the account. I'm currently planning on pulling out $20k and leaving the remaining $16k to split between me and my wife in IRAs. Does this seem wise, going forward? GoGoGadgetChris posted:Dude, the reason I urged him to have a therapist is that his post seem vaguely suicidal to me. Planning to give away all of your wealth, and having a hard time imagining a future for yourself are two very significant warning signs. I fully intend to live doing good, productive things I enjoy in pursuit of the things I value for as long as possible. I have no plans to give away all my wealth any time soon, and think I've got at least 30 more years of future left to plan for. I do consider alzheimer's and dementia literally worse-than-death and would choose a bullet over them, but I don't think that's necessarily indicative of depression. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 6, 2018 |
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Feb 6, 2018 21:54
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Status update: Been working on things other than retirement stuff for a bit, although I did get a Roth IRA account open. More difficult than I expected it to be, apparently they were having trouble validating my identity, but it's all worked out now. Cheapest full-day-5-day daycare option that doesn't have reviews composed solely of "stay the gently caress away from this place" available is a whopping $1,500, and it's also the place he's already going so he's pretty much guaranteed to get in. We're already paying $600, so that's a $900 increase. Looking at apartments, found a really nice place that's offering a special "2 months free" deal, so year-long contract with an effective rent of $1,200 over the year, which is really drat good for this area, and the price includes everything but electricity and internet which makes it even cheaper by comparison than the others i've looked at, and conveniently just down the street from the cheapest preschool. They're also fine with me having a May 1st move date - I've informed my current landlord I'll be moving out, so hopefully I can figure out the logistics of a move with zero overlap in rental time. We'll probably be seeing the mediator at the end of the month, since the best one we can afford is also on vacation this month - we're working out stuff decently on our own right now, but will definitely need them soon. The plan is to have the details worked out, the paperwork finalized and filed, and everything done on our end by the end of next month. For her part, my soon-to-be-ex already signed for a $1,650/month apartment and is getting ready to move out but hasn't started looking for a job yet. o_o It was mostly on the basis that her father promised to give her what she needed to get through the next few months. Her father has since withdrawn his offer to her for financial support, because he's convinced that if she moves out I'm going to accuse her of abandonment and get full custody and not have to pay her any alimony. Even though abandonment doesn't work that way. So that means we, mostly me, am now paying for two apartments simultaneously, which is... not ideal. I am very much looking forward to her stuff slowly trickling out over the next month or two though, so much. Switching to full time day care is definitely going to wait either for the divorce paperwork to be filed or for her to get a job, whichever comes first.
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Feb 13, 2018 21:04
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GlyphGryph posted:Been working on things other than retirement stuff for a bit, although I did get a Roth IRA account open. More difficult than I expected it to be, apparently they were having trouble validating my identity, but it's all worked out now. GlyphGryph posted:Looking at apartments, found a really nice place that's offering a special "2 months free" deal, so year-long contract with an effective rent of $1,200 over the year, which is really drat good for this area, and the price includes everything but electricity and internet which makes it even cheaper by comparison than the others i've looked at, and conveniently just down the street from the cheapest preschool. They're also fine with me having a May 1st move date - I've informed my current landlord I'll be moving out, so hopefully I can figure out the logistics of a move with zero overlap in rental time. GlyphGryph posted:For her part, my soon-to-be-ex already signed for a $1,650/month apartment and is getting ready to move out but hasn't started looking for a job yet. o_o It was mostly on the basis that her father promised to give her what she needed to get through the next few months.
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Feb 15, 2018 05:50
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SiGmA_X posted:Make sure your old 401k was a Roth, otherwise put it into a non-Roth IRA @ Vanguard. quote:Didn't you say you're in Boston? I can't find that in the thread and it's late, maybe I am misremembering.. If I'm right, $1,440/mo doesn't too bad, but I've only looked in a couple of neighborhoods and it was 3-4yrs ago, and I wasn't looking to move (sister and friend lived out there).
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Feb 16, 2018 02:35
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If you're trying for Greater Concord, Maynard is still tolerably affordable last I heard, as is Bedford.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:44
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GlyphGryph posted:Why is that? The advice from the retirement thread seemed to indicate sticking it into a Roth $36k in 401k (traditional) currently $20k withdraw, split with wife for living expenses $16k split with wife in divorce Is there any way to NOT withdraw the $20k to split with the wife? If your 401k is Traditional, you have yet to pay taxes on it so that gets added to your income this year. Any contributions from your employer are definitely Traditional, so it's quite likely any conversions/withdrawal will be taxable (+10% penalty on withdrawal of course). What I found on Google, which sums up the extent of my 401k-in-divorce knowledge, your portion of your 401k will still be at the provider, and the provider will pay your wife the ordered amount. So your Roth IRA will be separate from the 401k. You do NOT want to pay 10% penalty to early withdraw it and then pay tax to convert it to a Roth IRA. In the event that your provider does pay it out to you into an IRA, you can make the call if you want to convert to Roth and pay tax on it. I did this with a very small 401k (~$3k) during my last year of college, when I had an insanely low tax rate as I was only employed during the fall term. Total tax due was basically nothing due to refundable credits, it worked out very well. With your income, you'll pay a heck of a lot more to convert Traditional to Roth. For your future savings, 401k will be either pre or post tax (traditional vs Roth), I didn't see you list funds/ER's, if they're close to as good as Vanguard and you want to defer the taxes, you may want to go traditional. At your age and income, I kind of expect you're going to be at the same to lower income bracket in retirement, so deferring tax and getting the tax break may be good. That is a more complex computation than I am willing to get into. If your 401k sucks, screw it, go Vanguard Roth IRA. Personally I go all-Roth (employer Roth 401k, Vanguard Roth IRA), and my employer match is Traditional. This (possibly) hedges my future tax rate, I can pick and choose where to withdraw from. Hopefully my retirement income is high enough that it matters!
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Feb 17, 2018 06:38
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Update: She is now moved out. Obviously stuff is emotionally hosed right now in lots of ways, but despite that this is, uh... basically the best we've gotten along in years? So it seems like we're still on the road to a decent mediation, hurrah for that. Even that's not looking cheap though - $290 an hour, ugh. The big problem is the $5,000 retainer, which I can't afford. People here and elsewhere are really down on the idea of burning any of the retirement savings on this, so I'm considering taking out a personal loan instead. Yeah, the interests rates can be higher than on the retirement funds - but it means I can afford to get more of the lawyers advice on doing stuff with the retirement funds, and I don't have to pay taxes and penalties... so long as I prioritize paying it off quickly, it seems like a wiser financial move. Would people say that's a good, bad idea? Going into more debt is remarkably unappealing, but I should be able to pay back any such loan within 6 months based on likely agreement outcomes (and so long as I live as cheaply as possible in other ways), so it might just be a superior option to tapping the retirement funds. I would imagine that since it's for a shared lawyer, it would also be a shared debt and we can split that as well - or, since she's keeping the car, she might just get to keep all of it! Speaking of cars, I've been thinking more about it and I think my best option is to just... not get one, and get a bicycle instead. I'm within biking distance of work, so long as there's no snow on the ground, and we're moving out of the snowy season, so it seems like an acceptable option. Apparently we've already got a trailer to hold my son that we acquired at some point, so I can even use it to bring him around. No insurance, no gas, no bank-breaking repair costs. The health benefits are appealing as well - and on particularly bad weather days, I always have the option of working from home. Public transit is, for the most part, nonexistent in my area - but there is a commuter shuttle from downtown to the commuter rail, and that should do me for visiting family. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 17:59
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GlyphGryph posted:Update: No dude. Just burn the last of the retirement savings. You're gonna need it for rent for you and wifey and what isn't gone when you sign papers she'll get at least half of what's left. Don't take out a personal loan.
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Feb 23, 2018 04:39
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I understand she is getting half. I dont see how that changes the math? So long as I pay off any loans within three years it still seems like I come out well ahead on any equal division wealth splitby doing a loan instead. I might be, or probably am, doing the math wrong though: can you explain more what you mean? Pulling out of my retirement means I am paying almost half again as much for the same money, right? How us a bank loan worse?
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Feb 23, 2018 06:12
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What's the interest rate on a personal loan, and how are your retirement funds invested? If the former is higher than the expected return on the latter (including penalties), then you're better off liquidating the retirement account. Calculate the compounding for both over the life of the loan and compare them. Also, would your ex-wife share in the repayments for the loan?
Vinz Clortho fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 06:59
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OP, we want you to burn as little savings as possible. Loans are negative savings. Double bad if wife doesn't have to help pay them off, and they benefited her. Your whole "gently caress retirement" this is why people steered you clear of the 401k withdraw. You still want to touch it as little as possible, but taking on debt that will get assigned to you (so I assume) is way worse.. I wonder if your wife can be assigned part of the tax debt that the withdraw will generate. No car and biking sounds great. If it turns out it doesn't work for you, you can get a cheap car. Get a reasonably price bike (I know 0 about them, friends are into them ranging from cheap to "holy gently caress you paid how much for that?! and it doesn't have a motor?!") and bike smartly. Chemondelay posted:What's the interest rate on a personal loan, and how are your retirement funds invested? If the former is higher than the expected return on the latter (including penalties), then you're better off liquidating the retirement account. Calculate the compounding for both over the life of the loan and compare them. Also, would your ex-wife share in the repayments for the loan? SiGmA_X fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 23, 2018 |
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Feb 23, 2018 07:25
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Yeah, just piling on here but whatever's in your retirement account she's going to get (at least) half of anyway, whereas if you take on debt you get to keep it all. So you might as well spend the retirement savings on the lawyer(s).
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Feb 23, 2018 13:44
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If i take out a personal loan it will be in both of our names with her taking half the payments OR its going to agreed upon in writing that it will shift any wealth division more in my favour by that amount. I dont have any intent to harm myself in this situation (and if she doesnt agree to either of those I will just burn the retirement) it just seems like we would both come out of it better off so long as I can secure a reasonable loan, which is an additional conditional.
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Feb 23, 2018 15:01
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GlyphGryph posted:If i take out a personal loan it will be in both of our names with her taking half the payments OR its going to agreed upon in writing that it will shift any wealth division more in my favour by that amount. I dont have any intent to harm myself in this situation (and if she doesnt agree to either of those I will just burn the retirement) it just seems like we would both come out of it better off so long as I can secure a reasonable loan, which is an additional conditional.
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Feb 24, 2018 08:16
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How's it going, OP?
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Mar 21, 2018 06:57
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Just found this thread. Why are people suggesting he sack the 401(k) before he gets a QDRO? If the retirement money must come into the mix It would seem he is better off taking a personal loan now and paying it off once her gets the QDRO to avoid paying the early withdrawal penalty.
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Mar 31, 2018 18:50
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Because giving her half of it will cost him more than the early withdrawal penalty will. I Am Not A Lawyer nor a financial planner though so I could be missing something. Hope you're doing okay OP!
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Mar 31, 2018 22:21
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Eric the Mauve posted:Because giving her half of it will cost him more than the early withdrawal penalty will. This candle was already lit - transaction past this point matter a lot if it's anything like the divorces of a couple of my close friends. I mean....he needs to talk to his divorce lawyer, but taking the penalty doesn't sound like great advice in my second hand experience.
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Apr 1, 2018 00:24
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Ah, yeah I think I take your meaning--if it goes to divorce court and it comes up that he cleaned out his 401k to pay his lawyer the judge is going to say "LOL, don't care if you already spent that money, it was a joint asset so you owe her half of it anyway. Before accounting for the withdrawal penalty." So yeah that's a pretty big thing I missed, I'd say
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Apr 1, 2018 00:39
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