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stone cold posted:b) wow it almost reminds me of the intense anti rap sentiment and crackdowns that occurred in america, it’s almost like these are similar situations 🤔 If rap, even if made by Chinese people, is cracked down on by society, I'm really struggling to see how the creation of the rap itself is a bad thing (or at least a bad thing related to the aforementioned cracking down). If anything, it seems like a better path forward than allowing something stemming from black cultural products to be entirely silenced (and it might at least allow certain aspects of black American culture to become less stigmatized). There's still the problem of people profiting off of a black cultural product*, but 1. that's a separate issue and 2. as mentioned things get very fuzzy when you're talking about unique creations in a musical field as broad as rap/hip-hop. * It's also only conceivably a problem if there are black people in China who are writing their own rap and can't succeed commercially as a result of racism. I'm just blindly assuming this is the case, because if it's not the entire argument against Chinese rap falls apart (since no one would be profiting at anyone else's expense).
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Aug 6, 2018 00:05
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OwlFancier posted:I think I am probably arguing that there isn't a moral issue other than the degree to which the practice may materially harm people, which it primarily does via commodification, not use of a thing by individuals, or even the transfer of a thing from one culture into another without the involvement of Capital, because it is the commodification of a thing which harms it because it then gets sold back to places where its original meaning might still remain, as a commodity, which is devoid of meaning. If it just transfers into a new place not as a commodity then it acquires its own meaning there which may inherit from the original or not, but is no less valid. I was arguing (badly) that cultural appropriation presents a moral issue when it negatively affects the relevant minority group, but those effects are not best understood in terms of appropriation, commodification or exploitation (i.e., in economic terms). In other words, the problem isn't that a cultural practice is appropriated, but that the minority group is negatively affected by the appropriated practice. My goal is to sidestep some common problems with liberal discourse about cultural appropriation (cultural ontology) and safeguard the concept from criticism that points to neutral or positive examples of cultural appropriation in an effort to undermine the entire discourse. I apologize for the unclear post. quickly fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 08:59
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Ytlaya posted:It sorta comes back to what other people have mentioned where the real problem is "discrimination against (in this case) black people that results in them being less able to profit from the same music," rather than other groups creating and profiting from it. I wish there were two terms, because cultural appropriation is used to mean two very separate things: * A white culture not adopting the artistic achievements of a minority culture until after they are repackaged with white performers. The first could be called "discrimination against minority performers", but it's happened often enough (Led Zeppelin) that there could be a shorter term for it. * A dominant culture adopting important symbols of a minority culture in frivolous, unthinking ways. This is the giant grey area that practically requires an organized movement to be sure about. If you ask someone from Peru, they might be a bit sore about getting priced out of their own staple food, quinoa, due to shifting diet fads in the U.S.. But lots of people from Peru are themselves quinoa farmers who are happy enough to buy themselves rice instead with their new buckets of money.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:57
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Barudak posted:Youre aware I chose rap in china because a) rap in china predates Chinese economic programs in Africa* Rap isn't African in cultural origin though, so uh...relevance?
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Aug 6, 2018 17:46
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Grape posted:Rap isn't African in cultural origin though, so uh...relevance? Thats my point, African American culture isnt African culture, so Chinas relationship wirh one when the other is in question is irrelevant. The issue is structural systems, not the purity of cultures
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Aug 6, 2018 18:56
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Barudak posted:The issue is structural systems, not the purity of cultures
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Aug 7, 2018 03:25
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Phyzzle posted:But lots of people from Peru are themselves quinoa farmers who are happy enough to buy themselves rice instead with their new buckets of money.
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Aug 8, 2018 05:04
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xrunner posted:I don't know that I was making a specific argument, so much as sharing the emotional sentiment of somebody who is deeply involved in these issues. And that emotional sentiment is entirely valid. It boils down to the fact that it's anger inducing to see cultural touchstones used as kitsch, or sold for profit, or bandied about lightly as decoration when that culture was actively suppressed and the vast wealth out there was built on stolen resources. I guess I was trying to get across the emotional, individual and entirely authentic response of an individual, rather than argue for or against at a high level, if that makes sense, because I think we often have these conversations without really considering the individuals in these communities, diverse and scattered as they are across the political spectrum. I really do feel like these conversations get into odd places. I feel like when they do it deflects from the emotions that people feel when they see someone make a quick buck off of the culture that was at one point meant to be eradicated. I am so happy you said this. Thank you. Because this is the real heart of the issue. Teach the REAL history in public education. I want the meanings of iconic cultural symbols to be celebrated not monetized off of and just reduced to a “style.” It’s more than style, it’s more than features and beyond. It’s all about history and also about how much culture has been lost to greed, oppression and selfishness. Cultural acceptance and a real education. That’s all I really want 😢
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Nov 25, 2018 15:56
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