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Skimmed for a bit, not sure if this should go in another thread or not. Recently I took interest in becoming a CNC programmer, seemed like the kind of career that I might want to get into. I was wondering what kind of prerequisite courses/ programs would be good to take, and what kind of education it would turn into; like a Co-op/apprenticeship program or is it more of a college course or trade school? First learned of the position during a dual-credit program at school, our poo poo teacher didn't really mention anything about career paths or any sort like that, just jabbered on about how much better he is than us because he went to a trade school and blah blah bla. Does anyone know anything about this?
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Jun 17, 2019 05:34
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TatoPancakes posted:Skimmed for a bit, not sure if this should go in another thread or not. Full disclosure: I was a machinist (and then eventually Quality inspector), so the CNC programmers were the guys that sat in the office and sometimes, maybe, deigned to come out and talk to us when poo poo was well and truly hosed. Also they worked 1st shift and I machined on 3rd. For the lathe/mill/gear machine aspect of it, I got the impression that the CNC programmers were mostly Industrial/Manufacturing engineers that had decided to specialize in a bit of programming (as far as I could tell, they spent most of the time in the office and I never saw them). I don't know what languages the lathes, mills, gear machines, etc. were using. When I moved into Quality, I worked much more closely with the guys that programmed the CMM machines. Again, mostly guys with Industrial/Manufacturing engineering backgrounds, but they also seemed to have taken a lot of math- and geometry-heavy coursework. These guys tended to have software specialties (Quindos, PC-DMIS, and one guy that was more Klingelnberg, etc.) and each focused specifically on the machines that used the software they were specialized in. As far as co-op/apprenticeship stuff, a general location (country, etc.) might be helpful. Near as I can tell, the USA has done away with any sort of apprenticeship programs (outside of some company-specific thing) and you get a degree in whatever, then get hired by a company and proceed to not know what the gently caress you're doing for a few years, then eventually you either figure it out or get fired. If you figure it out, then you are on your way to a career. (This is somewhat tongue in cheek, but, uh, yeah. I definitely don't have a real high regard for our academic-to-industry pipeline, from what I've seen.) Edit: The Quality Programming route would probably have been a career track I would have taken, but I decided to go back to school for an Accounting degree (for some dumb reason idk), so I left the shop floor about 5 years ago. Just to give you an idea of how dated this information is. Zarin fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 07:39
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Zarin posted:Full disclosure: I was a machinist (and then eventually Quality inspector), so the CNC programmers were the guys that sat in the office and sometimes, maybe, deigned to come out and talk to us when poo poo was well and truly hosed. Also they worked 1st shift and I machined on 3rd. Thanks! Sorry about not including an area, I live in southern Ontario, Canada.
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Jun 17, 2019 14:19
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TatoPancakes posted:Thanks! Sorry about not including an area, I live in southern Ontario, Canada. I just saw the thread tag; I am very smart  I do know of someone that may be able to provide actually useful info (and is a good) so I've tried paging him to the thread.
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Jun 17, 2019 14:51
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Zarin posted:I just saw the thread tag; I am very smart That would be much appreciated
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Jun 18, 2019 01:33
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TatoPancakes posted:That would be much appreciated Well, old boy is taking finals or some poo poo, so he's a bit busy at this time; I'll repost what he told me in GroupMe:  "Find a company that'll hire you" Well gee, if it was that easy, why didn't you say so before? "Otherwise, do the skilled trades route, then move into programming at the company you work at" Great advice, that only leaves the company with ALL THE CARDS IN THEIR HAND, NOW DOESN'T IT!?!?!?! "I don't have much knowledge beyond that, I'm afraid." Is there a schooling track for CNC programming? "Not directly, as far as I know. The field seems to be a split between Mechanical Engineering majors, and people that worked their way up from machinists"I took some editorial liberties with our conversation to play up the comedy, but I transcribed what he said pretty faithfully. For what it's worth, I was a Quality Grunt that was (marginally) more clever than most (which, well, our Quality Specialist exam apparently had a 75% failure rate), and if I had stuck with it, I'm sure management would have sent me through some training or another to program CMMs (unless they made me a supervisor, which was kinda what I was aiming for, because it paid better). Again, you were asking about CNC, which was kind of a black box to me, but I have to imagine that the career track is somewhat similar: the engineers that have a knack/aptitude for understanding how the cutters work end up getting selected for the training and positions that MAKE the cutters work. Edit: Again, probably not the information you were looking for. If you know for sure you want to do CNC programming, I'd say start hitting up the deans of the industrial colleges around you, and set up some informational interviews with the specific goal of "Tell me how I get from where I am now to programming CNC machines as a career". In my experience, the industrial guys are more than happy to talk all day long about their programs and where they lead. That's how I got suckered into a two-year degree in Mechanical Maintenance. (That, and I had a shitload of credits that transferred over.) Edit2: I'd wager that any of the crusty old professors have a network rolodex a mile deep; I got my first job because one of the local foundries sent the professor an email saying "Hey, we liked the last guy you recommended, you got any more like him?" and he was like "Want a job? I've got one you can have, right now. Go have a 30 minute chat with the guy, you'll be a good fit." He wasn't wrong, it was an easy in, but the pay wasn't what I was hoping for. Still, it was experience; I stuck it out a year, and left on good terms. Zarin fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 05:52
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TatoPancakes posted:Skimmed for a bit, not sure if this should go in another thread or not. Just stumbled across this thread, and I don't know if you're still following it, but it's not often I see my career in BFC! This position is changing much more rapidly than companies are able to adapt, so the duties of a CNC programmer vary from shop to shop depending on how up to date the companies business model is. For companies that make thousands of very cheap parts, they tend to use older machines from the 90's or thereabouts, because they aren't doing very demanding work that requires the most expensive machines out there. Back when these machines were made, there was no 3D modeling. The only way to program was for someone to sit in front of the CNC machine itself and type in the code manually. For these companies, it's still profitable to continue using that same method. If all you are doing is punching a hole in a part, it takes maybe 5 minutes to write the full program by hand. And if that program is then used to run hundreds or thousands of parts, the cost of programming is negligible. It also saves the hassle of trying to incorporate entirely new CAD/CAM software into process engineering for companies that have been operating the same way for many years. Especially since it may just end up slowing down the process if the programs are simple enough. So this model still exists. The knowledge you would pick up in a CNC certificate program at a community college directly applies to this style of programming. However, you would need experience before anyone would let you program things on their expensive machines, and programming is a very use it or lose it skill. So in the time you are getting your experience after you get a certificate, you could easily forget a lot of the coding, and then not be qualified to do programming. If you decided to go this route, you'd be best served going and getting a job as a CNC operator somewhere and getting your feet wet, and then going to school to expand on your knowledge. At which point you would be a qualified applicant. Fair warning though, this type of programming is becoming increasingly obsolete. The next step in the evolution of CNC was conversational programming. With the old school g-code programming, you had to tell the machine each and every step that the machine made at every single point in the program. Conversational CNC simplified the process. With this style, the machine asks you what you want done and then it figures out the details without having to manually input them. As a basic example, when turning a bar, you would simply say "I have a 2 inch bar, and I want to turn it down to 1 inch, taking off .08" each pass, at X speed and Y feed, with tool 1" and the machine would convert that into g-code behind the scenes and run the program for you. So it's significantly faster to write intricate programs with conversational programming. The titan in this field is Mazak. Their machines use a conversational language called Mazatrol, and they also have perhaps the best reputation for quality, durable machines in the industry. As a result, there are a lot of shops out there that only use Mazak machines, and have been for over a decade, so their business method is very oriented around Mazatrol. There's a lot of different brands that have their own onboard conversational programming system, and they all have their own unique interface, so it takes some learning when you switch from one brand to the other. If there's somebody who has a bunch of Mazak programming experience and another guy who has more experience programming on Haas machines, and they're both applying for a job programming on a Mazak, the guy with the Mazak experience will get the job. Using Mazatrol as an example, your best bet in this regard is to find an operator position on a Mazak, learn the basics, and then go to school for CNC programming. As you learn how to program in g-code, be considering how you would create the feature you're working on in Mazatrol, and ask people at work how you would do it if you don't know how. There's also programming manuals for these different types of conversational machines that are invaluable if a bit dense. But I expect this style of programming to stick around for another couple decades at least. At the shop I currently work at, we simply make too many prototype parts for us to have a process engineering department that sends programs out to the floor, so it's most convenient to just program the parts at the machine, and conversational programming lets us do so efficiently enough for all but the most complicated parts. But it definitely requires very specific technical knowledge that puts you at risk of being made obsolete in the long run. Last off is the current king, which is programming using computer aided manufacturing, or CAM. This is where you create a 3D model of the part you are trying to make on a PC application, complete with the tool paths you want the machine to follow, and then you click export and it spits out a program without you having to really deal with any code directly. When it comes to the most technically demanding parts in the manufacturing world, this is the easiest, quickest way to write the program, it can be done very safely, and it's compatible with basically any CNC machine out there, even the old as dirt ones. Were I to be starting today, this is what I would be trying to get most into, as it's the future. But it also has its issues as a career path. The first is that like with conversational programming, CAM software varies wildly by brand, and proficiency in one does not equal proficiency in another. Just to name a few, there's ESPRIT, MazakCAM, SmartCAM, Solidworks, MasterCAM, and on and on. I used SmartCAM in college, but haven't fiddled with it much since, or worked at places that heavily utilized it, so I don't have much advice to give on that front. I would think a 4 year degree in manufacturing engineering would be the most reliable way to get your foot in the door. That would qualify you to find a job with an engineering department, where you can learn the software they use through their training and through your experience. All that being said, at the end of the day, what matters is being able to do the job, because you will be tested on it in your interview. Experience is huge, but regardless of experience, you have to be able to program. You can have the most impressive resume ever, but if you get put in front of a machine and get hung up on some CNC 101 poo poo when you're writing a test program, the interview is over. And while it's possible to land a job with a place that is willing to train you up from the bottom to program, most places have in house candidates that are known quantities that they would rather give that opportunity to. If you want to compete, you have to figure out exactly what it is you want to do, and then self start and learn how to do it. There's not a whole lot of hand holding in this field. There's resources out there for any of these routes you choose to follow, and you'll have to pursue them on your own time to develop the skillset you would need. But once you have it, you're in the fold, and you can very easily prove to anyone that you know how to do it. Anyways, enough rambling. I'd be happy to answer any other questions you have. We also have the metalworking and CNC threads in DIY that have some other knowledgeable posters in them. acidx fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 17:11
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I'll share my experience: I did dual enrollment in HS in a machining program at a local technical college, which I completed shortly after graduating HS in the mid 2000s. While also going to school for Mech Eng, I worked as a CNC machinist at a 3 person company and also as an Engineering intern at a 150 person manufacturing company. Following school I got a manufacturing engineering job at a huge company where I did R&D CNC machining and surface finishing. Think CNC machining, sanding, diamond machining, etc. Machining school was a nice to have, most learned on the job. With the availability of super low cost CNC machining tools and simulators you could learn everything you need to know pretty quickly, if youre motivated. Hindsight 20/20 I'd teach myself, have some projects to demonstrate my skills, and go find a job that way. Buying a lovely CNC mill is cheaper and faster than school. I should mention this wasn't my career though. I soon left. Found a job I liked better that didn't involve a face full of coolant. Got an M.S. in Eng and am now doing mostly Python coding/management of a small team at a biz I started with a friend. Also, we have a CNC thread where you can likely xpost for more advice: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3558051 CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 21:43
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