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I do not enjoy it
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Apr 29, 2024 23:57
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Working for Union usually means you work for DOJ/HR, with a focus on resolving Pillars violations via kinetic alternatives.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:04
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PurpleXVI posted:I confess that I never really got that perspective since as I recall it from 2e Exalted it was A) super niche for a lot of uses and B) introducing any kind of summons and henchmen to an already overloaded combat system might have been effective but it would've made me want to go chuck myself in a lake. The setting books and the demon roll-call book pushed the idea that serious manse building on any sort of human timescale required demons, which may well never have come up in play (exalted is my trpg white-whale to run/play so I can't speak directly to that). Which is maybe where you want to put these kind of ethical live-wires.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:41
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 wdarkk posted:Are we going to get a chance to suggest sample builds at the end of the Lancer review? gently caress yes, we are. We might be asked to move it to the Lancer thread, but I promise I'll actually poke my head in there for once if we start posting builds. Just let me know if that starts happening. If you want to post builds here, all I ask is for you to wait until I'm done. Nessus posted:Personally I'd enjoy seeing the game write-up finish and I encourage OP to just make note of this and move on to the whole thing. If this makes me some kind of a cuss word, I accept the burden. Don't worry, even if this thread turns into the biggest melt-down imaginable, I'm not going to let that be what kills this write-up. It'll most likely be either boredom or Helldivers 2. Joking aside, let's move on:  Unfortunately the pilot gear section decided to have a bunch of cool art instead of when we're talking about mechs, so I'm putting this here  Before we get right into the cool stuff, we're taking another look at Licensing and mech stuff in general. For the most part, this is a rehash of rules already talked about, but I'm going to give it some love anyway. Just because it's good to have a refresher when it's been so long. So here's the crash course version:
Next, we talk about Role Tags. These are just general ideas of a Mech Frame's intended purpose. They're just suggestions, really, but they do let you know what a Frame is GOOD at. If you try to do a Vlad's Job in a Goblin, you're probably not going to do so well. There are five roles, and many Frames have a mix of two of them. If they do, the first one is the one the Frame is best at. The second one is more of... Well, a secondary thing. The five roles are:  There's also a bit on the different corporations here, but I'd prefer to go into their stuff when we get to them. Instead, we'll go ahead and focus on GMS as promised.  General Massive Systems posted:General Massive Systems – GMS for short – is the galactic-standard supplier of just about everything. GMS developed the first mechs from up-armored hardsuits in 4500u, on Ras Shamra, the world that would become the capital of Harrison Armory; now, GMS’s flagship Everest line of mechs sets the galactic standard. Reliable, sturdy, solidly built, and available in countless localized patterns, there are so many variants on the Everest pattern that it has become totally ubiquitous and faded into the background. With universally compatible components, full radiation and environmental shielding, and tens of thousands of preloaded languages, a pilot in their Everest has everything they need to get the job done. GMS is the all-rounder Corp. If you need basic stuff that isn't very exciting, but gets the job done, you want GMS. GMS gear is boring, but practical, and very little of it is going to wow someone. But whether it's a basic assault rifle or the mighty Tempest charged blade, you'll never go wrong with GMS. Even when you're the best of the best even among Lancers, GMS gear can still find a place on your build. While the last sentence of that quote might be a big hyperbolic, one thing is true: As stated in the description for the Everest, you'll never forget. The GMS Core Bonuses are always available for everyone. Even in the last stated example, where you have five ISP-N licenses and one Horus (what is your build I'm dying to know!) You can get two GMS Core Bonuses. And just like everything else in GMS, they're practical and always useful for anyone! Here they are: Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints Using the best in shock-absorbtion and steadytech, you can retain accuracy across longer, sustained periods of fire. Choose one mount. Weapons attached to this Mount gain +1 ACC. Kind of eh, IMO, but it can be useful if you want to negate the Inaccurate tag on a weapon without any further effort, which allows you to build more and more ACC on that weapon from other sources. I'd suggest not, but you might find a use for it. Overpower Caliber Instead of the standardized option, you requisition multiple racks of "hot" ammunition - same-bore slugs, with a higher grade of accelerant. Chose one weapon. 1/round, when you hit with an attack, you can cause it to deal +1d6 bonus damage. Yea, uh, this is a good example of how powerful Core Bonuses can get in this game. +1d6 damage is kind of ridiculous even at the end-game. And since you're probably only attacking with the weapon once anyway, you effectively doubled (or more) the damage of most weapons. For reference, the basic GMS Assault Rifle, a very reliable and practical weapon, has 1d6 damage. That's a pretty mid-range damage die. Of course, since it's 1/round, you can't Overcharge and get that bonus damage again, but even then, you just got 3d6 damage out of that. Food for thought. Improved Armament By rerouting power and strengthening systems, you can mount additional weapons beyond the factory recommendations. If your mech has fewer than three mounts (excluding integrated mounts), it gains an additional Flexible mount (Either one Main or two Aux). You get another mount for free. A lot of mechs don't have three weapon mounts. This can solve that issue. Most of those mechs focus on doing things other than firing weapons, but more variety never hurts. As I've said in the past, it's usually better to go for two Aux weapons than one more main, but that still depends on your build. If you have the Gunslinger talent, the use of this Core Bonus should be pretty obvious, but if you're leaning towards the Crack Shot talent, you might prefer to slap another Main on there. Integrated Weapon The empty spaces in your mech’s chassis – inside fists, chest plates, anywhere there’s room – are filled with integrated weapons, ready to fire on reflex. Your mech gains a new integrated mount with capacity for one AUXILIARY weapon. This weapon can be fired 1/round as a free action when you fire any other weapon on your mech. It can’t be modified. You can't put weapon mods on it, but it's free real estate. Integrated weapons are pretty great, and this can be another way to help you exploit Gunslinger. At the same time, Aux weapons are best used in pairs or in conjunction with a Main weapon, so this one is firmly in the "maybe if you're really focused on Gunslinger" camp. Mount Retrofitting By re-fabricating certain components and hardpoints on your chassis for more efficient distribution, you can increase your mech’s firepower. Replace one mount with a MAIN/AUX mount. Not using that one heavy mount? Not going for Gunslinger and you'd prefer that Main, Flex, or Aux mount to have extra room for an underslung grenade launcher? This is the Core Bonus for you. Situational, but that's most things in this game. Universal Compatibility The Everest is everywhere: so are the parts you need for a field repair. Any time you spend CP to activate a CORE SYSTEM, you may also take a free action to restore all HP, cool all HEAT, and roll 1d20: on 20, regain 1 CP. As a reminder, Core Systems are basically Limit Breaks for mechs. So, this, uh, full heals and resets your heat and then you have a 5% chance of getting your Limit Break back. Is there a reason NOT to take this Core Bonus? Yes, actually. As mentioned many times before, some mech frames rely on having a bunch of heat to function at top form. Some of them have a way to negate that heat loss and still get the HP refill, but not all do. If you're in a mech that likes being in the Kenny Loggins Zone, maybe think twice about this one. Otherwise, the only reason this isn't an auto-take is if something else fits your build better. Superheavy Mounting Source: Official supplement Dustgrave) You’d be surprised how large a gun you could fit on a chassis if you ripped out peripheral systems and failsafe redundancies. If your mech has fewer than 3 mounts (excluding integrated mounts) it gains an additional superheavy mount. It can only take SUPERHEAVY WEAPONS. They still require an additional mount to be installed. If your mech also has a heavy mount the SUPERHEAVY WEAPON must use that mount as the additional mount. Big guts? Need big guns. And bigger guts need BIGGER GUNS. If you don't have enough BFGs or BFSs in your life, you need this in it, and in your life. A lot of Superheavy weapons are very much worth the extra effort, and this Core Bonus lets you use up a Heavy Mount instead of a Heavy and one other mount, if you have one, so it impacts your overall firepower less than if you put a Superheavy on without this Core Bonus. Life without a Leviathan Assault Cannon isn't worth living, honestly. That out of the way, let's peek at the weapons and systems. I'll go through all of them them, and the ones I have special notes on, I'll add them in. Not all of them get that, though; as stated, a lot are just boring, though that doesn't speak to their usefulness. Just how fun they are to talk about. The other companies don't have weapon lists like this one, GMS is special. So I'm going all in with these just because it's more or less a one time thing and this is a good way to have these weapons to compare to later ones. ANTI-MATERIEL RIFLE: Heavy Rifle. 20 range, 2d6 Kinetic. Accurate, AP, Loading, Ordnance. This is the premier GMS sniping platform. Insane range and 2d6 damage with Accurate and AP is kind of nuts. Being only table to fire it once every other turn and being unable to do anything before firing it is a small price to pay for absolutely ruining someone's day. Great for erasing armored foes. ASSAULT RIFLE: Main Rifle. 10 Range, 1d6 Kinetic. Reliable 2. I've said a lot about this gun, and despite how simple it is, this weapon DESERVES everything said about it. It's reliable (literally!) and the ease of use, good damage, and great range make it the default weapon of choice for a reason. You can't go wrong with the GMS Assault Rifle, even all the way up to the end-game of a campaign, where talents, core bonuses, and mods are easy to come by and turn this thing into a real killing machine. CHARGED BLADE: Main Melee. 1 Threat, 1d3+3 Energy. AP. It's a sword, but energy. The damage is slightly more reliable than its kinetic counterpart, and it's AP. The only reason not to take this over the Tactical Melee Weapon is that energy damage is the most resisted damage type in the game. CYCLONE PULSE RIFLE: Superheavy Rifle. 15 Range, 3d6+3 Kinetic. Accurate, Loading, Reliable 5. Some people say this is the worst GMS weapon. I don't agree. Some people say it's a bad weapon. I don't agree. Reliable 5 means you're going to get a good solid hit in even if you miss, and with Accurate, you're less likely to. You can't do less than 5 damage, even if you do hit. The only miss with this weapon is that it's Loading, which a lot of Superheavy weapons weirdly aren't. If you take this, you may as well double down and take another Loading weapon with it. HEAVY CHARGED BLADE: Heavy Melee. 1 Threat, 1d6+3 Energy. AP. HEAVY MACHINE GUN: Heavy Cannon. 8 Range, 2d6+4 Kinetic. Inaccurate. If you didn't hear the Metal Slug voice in your head, I dunno what to say. Other than that this gun does a lot of damage and Inaccurate makes it kind of hard to hit with it. If you're not planning on using ways to mitigate that Inaccurate tag in your build, pick something else. The damage is not worth missing every other shot and not having Reliable. HEAVY MELEE WEAPON: Heavy Melee. 1 Threat, 2d6+1 Kinetic. This and the Tactical Melee weapon do less damage than the Charged variants, but again, Energy is the most resisted damage type in the game, so it kind of balances out. Another note: Both do not specify WHAT they are. Bigass hammer? Sure. Longsword? Fine. Katana? Nothing personnel, kid. HOWITZER: Heavy Cannon. 20 Range, 2 Blast, 2d6 Explosive. Arcing, Inaccurate, Loading, Ordnance. Blast 2 is deceptively big, and you roll for each individual target in the AoE, so the Inaccurate doesn't matter as much as you might think. Arcing is useful to have, too. Since they have the same range and are both Loading, this weapon is a weirdly good complement to the Anti-Materiel Rifle, if you can manage to mount both. Otherwise, if you're an Artillery focused mech, which one you take depends more on if you're going for Crack Shot or Siege Specialist. This one will probably be replaced pretty quickly, as well, whereas the AMR has staying power. MISSILE RACK: Auxiliary Launcher. 10 Range, Blast 1, 1d3+1 Explosive. Loading. The fact that you can hit multiple enemies with one shot it makes it great for triggering Gunslinger if you're running that. If you can target three enemies at once and hit every shot, you immediately trigger I Kill With My Heart. Still, only take if you're focusing on Launchers for your build, since there's another GMS weapon way better for this purpose otherwise. MORTAR: Main Cannon. 15 Range, Blast 1, 1d6+1 Explosive. Arcing, Inaccurate. Focusing on long range? There are better weapons for that. Focusing on Cannons? You could do worse. NEXUS (HUNTER-KILLER): Main Nexus. 10 Range, 1d6 Kinetic. Smart. If you're trying to hit something with a lot of Evasion, nexus weapons are your friend. Since the Centimane talent mixes well with drone-focused builds, this is a great weapon choice if you're running drones. NEXUS (LIGHT): Auxiliary Nexus. 10 Range, 1d3 Kinetic. Smart. PISTOL: Auxiliary CQB. 5 Range, 3 Threat, 1d3 Kinetic. Reliable 1. Make a great complement to a Shotgun, but otherwise eh. They have Reliable, which is nice, and if you're running Vanguard and just want to have something to go with a Shotgun, take two. Or three. If you're going with Gunslinger, see Missile Rack. There's a better tool for the job. And if you're focused on a CQB build, you'll DEFINITELY replace these as soon as you hit LL1, MAYBE LL2. PROGRESSIVE KNIFE: Auxiliary Melee. 1 Threat, 1d3+1 Energy. Overkill. When you're done having PTSD flashbacks to End of Evangelion, note that this is an Auxiliary weapon with Overkill. That means it's impossibly to get less than 3 damage a pop, and since it's an Aux, you'll probably have 2. 6 damage from aux weapons is nothing to sneeze at, and that's the lowest amount you can get with them. Just watch your heat. Or don't. I'm not your dad. ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADE: Main Launcher. 10 Range, Blast 2, 1d6+1 Explosive. Loading, Ordnance. Why are we still using RPGs in the super future? Well, it's a solid weapon if you want to use a Launcher, I guess. SHOTGUN: Main CQB. 5 Range, 3 Threat. 1d6 Kinetic. This is the weapon by which all CQB weapons are measured. It's a solid choice if you want to make people unwilling to stay near you but too scared to run away from you. TACTICAL KNIFE: Auxiliary Melee. 1 Threat, 1d3+1 Kinetic. Thrown 3. Not a fan of losing my weapons as a design feature. Just take the Progressive Knife. It's less likely to copy-pasta at you or quote Joe Rogan. TACTICAL MELEE WEAPON: Main Melee. 1 Threat, 1d6+2 Kinetic. THERMAL LANCE: Heavy Cannon. 10 Line, 1d6+3 Energy. 2 Heat (Self). Line AoEs are always great in this game if you can get your buddies to cooperate in helping you get enemies IN a line. THERMAL PISTOL: Auxiliary CQB. 5 Line, 2 Energy. So, remember how I said in two different weapon descriptions that there's a better tool for triggering I Kill With My Heart? Here you go. This is it. Proper positioning will make sure you do so as an afterthought. THERMAL RIFLE: Main Rifle. 5 Range, 1d3+2 Energy. AP. Why isn't this Line? It has AP. It makes no sense in-setting that it's not a Line, but it does have AP, and AP without lower damage and/or Loading is rare, so take it if you need that. HURRICANE CLUSTER PROJECTOR: Superheavy Cannon. 10 Range, Blast 2, 1d6+6 Explosive. Smart, Seeking, Ordnance, Heat 2 (Self). Source: official supplement Dustgrave. Sacrificing range and an extra mount for it, but this is otherwise just plain better in every way over the Howitzer. TEMPEST CHARGED BLADE: Superheavy Melee. 2 Threat, 3d6+4 Energy. AP, Knockback 2. Source: official supplement Dustgrave.  There's a bunch of new weapons from the fan-made GMS Crisis Catalogue, as well. I don't think I'll cover them here, but they give a massive improvement to the variety of GMS weapons you can pick from. I've used them myself, I can attest to the quality of them. Some of the better choices: Heavy Slug Shotgun (AP and Reliable 2 is a great combination) Grenade Launchers (Missile Racks, but they're Inaccurate instead of Loading and shorter range), and Deluge Missiles (MACROSS STYLE). GMS also offers a wide range of Systems, and as all GMS products, they can (and should) be used on just about any mech. They offer some things other mechs just don't, which is a general theme with mechs in this game: Other companies focus on being weird and wonderful, but they tend to lack some of the basic options you might want. COMP/CON ASSISTANT UNIT: 2 SP, AI, Unique The GMS Companion/Concierge-Class Assistant Unit conforms to all galaxywide standards. These virtual assistants pass even the most rigid Turing-Null assessment criteria and are cleared to operate even in the absence of a pilot. Your mech has a basic comp/con unit, granting it the AI tag. The comp/con can speak to you and has a personality, but, unlike an NHP, is not truly capable of independent thought. It is obedient to you alone. You can give control of your mech to its comp/con as a protocol, allowing your mech to act independently on your turn with its own set of actions. Unlike other AIs, a mech controlled by a comp/con has no independent initiative and requires direct input. Your mech will follow basic courses of action (defend this area, attack this enemy, protect me, etc.) to the best of its ability, or will act to defend itself if its instructions are complete or it receives no further guidance. You can issue new commands at the start of your turn as long as you are within 50 and have the means to communicate with your mech. Comp/con units are not true NHPs and thus cannot enter cascade. Very situational. I've never had a situation in a game where a basic Comp/Con was useful, but it COULD be depending on the mission. CUSTOM PAINT JOB: 1 SP, Unique When your mech takes structure damage, roll 1d6. On a 6, you return to 1 HP and ignore the damage – the hit simply ‘scratched your paint’. This system can only be used once between full repairs, and is not a valid target for system destruction. Basically an auto-take for the first two LLs, and maybe even after that. Is it likely to save your bacon multiple times? No. Will you be glad you had it when it does? Yes. EVA MODULE 1 SP, Unique Your mech has a propulsion system suitable for use in low or zero gravity and underwater environments. In those environments, you can fly and are not SLOWED. Not always useful, but when you're in the described situations, you basically need this to be worth a poo poo. If your GM doesn't warn you that you're going to be in space/underwater so that everyone can equip these, they're an rear end in a top hat and should be punched. EXPANDED COMPARTMENT: 1 SP, Unique Your mech has space for one additional non-mech character or object of Size 1/2 to ride as a passenger in the cockpit. While inside the mech, they cannot suffer any effect from outside or be targeted by attacks, as if they were a pilot. You can hand over or take back control to or from them at the start of any turn (following the same rules as pilot and AI), but if they take over the controls from you, the mech becomes IMPAIRED and SLOWED to reflect the lack of appropriate licenses and integration. Escort mission? Have a buddy that lost their mech and needs a ride? Want to gay space communist smooch while you pilot a mech? GMS has got you, fam. I suggest at least one Lancer in your wing take this just in case. At least. MANIPULATORS 1 SP, Unique Precise interaction with built and natural environments, soft targets, and sensitive materials is part of the daily routine for support-class mechs. This is made possible by manipulators – added multi-digit “hands” with haptic sensors. Your mech has an extra set of limbs. They are too small to have any combat benefit, but allow the mech to interact with objects that would otherwise be too small or sensitive (e.g., pilot-sized touch pads). As if to completely obsolete the basic Comp/Con, this lets your hacker hack things without needing to get out of their mech, which is one of the only times you'd consistently want to use the basic Comp/Con. Oh well. If you have a hacker-type character in your Wing, they should have this. PATTERN-A SMOKE CHARGES: 2 SP, Limited 3, Unique You may spend a charge from this system for one of the following effects: • Smoke grenade (Grenade, 5 Range, Blast 2): All characters and objects within the blast area benefit from soft cover until the end of your next turn, at which point the smoke disperses. • Smoke mine (Mine, Burst 3): This mine detonates when any allied character moves over or adjacent to it. All characters and objects within the burst area benefit from soft cover until the end of the detonating character’s next turn, at which point the smoke disperses. Solid for Support or Defenders, not much more to say than that. PATTERN-A 'JERICHO' DEPLOYABLE COVER 2 SP, Deployable, Unique, Quick Action As a quick action, you may deploy two sections of SIZE 1 hard cover in free spaces adjacent to the user and to each other. Each section is an object with 5 EVASION and 10 HP that can be targeted and destroyed individually. It is one full action to pick up both sections of cover once they have been deployed. Repairing the system while resting or repairing restores both sections. Ditto. Less versatile than the smoke charges, but they can be picked up and moved. Super useful if you're on a small map or have to hold a position. PATTERN-B HEX CHARGES 2 SP Limited 3, Unique You may spend a charge from this system for one of the following effects: • Frag grenade (Grenade, 5 Range, Blast 1): All characters within the blast area must pass an AGILITY save or take 1d6 Explosive. On a successful save, they take half damage. • Explosive mine (Mine, Burst 1): All characters within the burst area must pass an AGILITY save or take 2d6 Explosive. On a successful save, they take half damage. Grenades and mines, what else could you want? PERSONALIZATIONS 1 SP, Unique Your mech gains +2 HP and, in consultation with the GM, you may establish a minor modification you have made to your mech. This mod has no numerical benefit beyond the additional HP it grants, but could provide other useful effects. If the GM agrees that this mod would help with either a pilot or mech skill check, you gain +1 ACCURACY for that check. I allow a little more leeway and creativity in what this can do for a PC, but it's useful out of the box if you're a Defender and want just that little more HP. An example: I allowed an Artillery-focused PC to get +1 ACC on all Inaccurate weapons if they decided not to move at all for the entire round. Fluffed it as stabilizing rods slamming into the ground from their mech's legs. RAPID BURST JUMP JET SYSTEM 2 SP, Unique You can fly when you BOOST; however, you must end the movement on the ground or another solid surface, or else immediately begin falling. Can be helpful if the map is full of sudden height changes, like an urban map, or one with lots of hills and/or ravines, or for avoiding Difficult/Dangerous terrain. Or mines. It's just kind of generally useful, really. STABLE STRUCTURE 2 SP, Unique Your mech gains +1 ACC on saves to avoid Prone or Knockback. Prone is painful, so anything that helps you avoid it is nice. TURRET DRONES 2 SP, Limited 3, Unique, Quick Action The use of turret drones is a rather traditional form of force multiplication – one that has remained the backbone of defense in many theatres. Turret Drone: Size 1/2, 5 HP, 10 Evasion, 10 E-Defense. Drone. Expend a charge to deploy a turret drone that attaches to any object or surface within SENSORS and line of sight. Gain the TURRET ATTACK reaction, which can be taken once for each deployed turret drone. Turret drones cannot be recalled and expire at the end of the scene. Turret Attack Reaction, 1/round per turret Trigger: An allied character within 10 Range of a turret makes a successful attack. Effect: The turret deals 3 Kinetic to their target, as long as it has line of sight to their target. Takes some time to set up, but if you only have one Encounter in a mission, it's hilarious to toss down all three of these and add 9 Kinetic damage a round to some poor schmuck. Even if you don't want to spend them all at once, extra damage is still extra damage. For extra fun, the Drone Shepherd talent will let you move these around, because the only thing worse than a turret is a turret that chases you. TYPE-1 FLIGHT SYSTEM 3 SP, Unique You can fly when you BOOST or make a standard move; however, you take Size +1 Heat at the end of any of your turns in which you fly this way. Like the Jump Jets, this lets you fly. Unlike the Jump Jets, this lets you fly when you move OR boost AND you don't have to land at any point. You continuously take at least 2 heat every round, but that can be pretty easily managed as the price of being able to fly. There's other methods of flight in the game, including a Core Bonus from SSC that is this but it doesn't take SP, but if you don't have any of those methods, you could do worse than keeping this around. The SP cost is a little steep at LL0-2, but you'll make due. Just don't put this on anything bigger than Size 1. Oh, and if you're wondering, Size 1/2 mechs still take 2 heat, not 1 1/2 heat. I'll give another post later this week about the three GMS mechs we haven't looked at. It'll be a smaller post, so I'll probably squeeze out a second one starting the second corporation the same weekend. This is where we get to the REAL meat of the game, I'm gonna be describing Mechs for a WHILE. Not that I doubt anyone minds if we stop thinking about enslaved eldritch horrors and talk about giant robots* instead for the next, oh, few months. *giant robots may not actually be that big Mecha_Face fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 01:27
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Pakxos posted:The setting books and the demon roll-call book pushed the idea that serious manse building on any sort of human timescale required demons, which may well never have come up in play (exalted is my trpg white-whale to run/play so I can't speak directly to that). I really didn't want to step on this landmine, but I feel my hand has been forced when we're talking about Exalted. I think the issue with the ethical implications of demon-summoning is that there isn't really much there to implicate. This isn't the same thing as the NHPs for a really good reason: Demons might not care that much. First Circle demons, the most likely kind of demon to be summoned, aren't even all sentient, let alone sapient. The ones that are may as well be computer programs that have a personality: They exist to do one thing, one thing only, and they love doing that thing. So, as long as you don't treat them like crap, and let them do the thing they're meant to do, they'll be happy with that. Third Circle demons are a really bad idea to gently caress around with even for an Exalt: you don't ENSLAVE them, you BARGAIN with them, and you better treat them like an equal because they are quite capable of ruining an Exalt's everything. Another point is that Malfeas loving sucks. I'm not saying you're doing demons a favor by forcibly conscripting them, I'm just pointing out the working conditions are at LEAST 100% better being in Creation than in Malfeas where they're slaves AND at constant threat of being Kimbery'd. The only time there might be a moral quandary are Second Circle demons, who are powerful enough to be fully fledged people, but not powerful enough to be a threat to Exalted skilled in Sorcery enough to summon them. I think if a Sorcerer is willing to bargain with Second Circle demons instead of just forcing them to work, that's a good test of if that Sorcerer is a shithead or not*. *being in limit break doesn't count every exalt is a shithead in limit break
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Apr 30, 2024 01:58
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Mecha_Face posted:Another point is that Malfeas loving sucks. I'm not saying you're doing demons a favor by forcibly conscripting them, I'm just pointing out the working conditions are at LEAST 100% better being in Creation than in Malfeas where they're slaves AND at constant threat of being Kimbery'd. Driving my pickup down to the local hardware manse and loading up on immigrant demons I can underpay. Mecha_Face posted:I think if a Sorcerer is willing to bargain with Second Circle demons instead of just forcing them to work, that's a good test of if that Sorcerer is a shithead or not. Considering that the option is there to treat them like people instead of slaves, I'm not sure why anyone would really make the argument about demon slavery being necessary for real ultimate power.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:08
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PurpleXVI posted:Driving my pickup down to the local hardware manse and loading up on immigrant demons I can underpay. The other option is being at high risk of being drowned in a sapient ocean of acid that hates literally everything, including herself. I don't think that's a very good comparison to exploiting immigrant workers, especially since one group isn't real and doesn't have feelings and the other group is and does. PurpleXVI posted:Considering that the option is there to treat them like people instead of slaves, I'm not sure why anyone would really make the argument about demon slavery being necessary for real ultimate power. It isn't, but if you're a crafter or want to build things bigger than a small house, you're going to need help. You can get that in multiple ways, but demons are the most effective way of doing that. You can bargain with them, or you can enslave them. It depends mostly on the character. But the issue is that the Yozi and the denizens of Malfeas are bound to rules, and the summonings are part of those rules, which makes an immediate, unfair power imbalance between them and someone who knows the rules. Like knowing someone's true name, kind of. Mecha_Face fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 02:34
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Mecha_Face posted:The other option is being at high risk of being drowned in a sapient ocean of acid that hates literally everything, including herself. I don't think that's a very good comparison to exploiting immigrant workers, especially since one group isn't real and doesn't have feelings and the other group is and does. Annd that's why this debate heats up so quickly. Since it becomes clear real quick who would still see you as a person if you were stripped of your cultural signifiers...and who wouldn't. -edit Mecha_Face posted:The only time there might be a moral quandary are Second Circle demons, who are powerful enough to be fully fledged people, but not powerful enough to be a threat to Exalted skilled in Sorcery enough to summon them. I dearly hope that was just unfortunate phrasing Pakxos fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 04:57
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Pakxos posted:Annd that's why this debate heats up so quickly. Since it becomes clear real quick who would still see you as a person if you were stripped of your cultural signifiers...and who wouldn't. Okay. If you think that this reflects on how I act and think about real, living people, there's no more point in talking about this. Mecha_Face fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 10:40
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