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TrixRabbi posted:Joker's ideology is nihilistic provocation. It wallpapers "eat the rich" capitalist critique as a facade to cover that its an entirely cynical film that doesn't actually give a poo poo about class conditions. Parasite would be a way better choice. I agree. Joker felt like a clumsy mix of taxi driver and king of comedy without anything to say. ChazTurbo fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jan 11, 2020 |
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Jan 11, 2020 00:26
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I took joker's message as being the rich are bad, the poor suffer in silence. The poor should do something about it, violence included, but you need to be cautious of who motivates and leads.
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Jan 11, 2020 00:53
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itt goons trying to get high schoolers to watch movies with handies and brutal murder
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Jan 11, 2020 01:11
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Hace posted:itt goons trying to get high schoolers to watch movies with handies and brutal murder they have to learn at some point, why not now?
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Jan 11, 2020 01:46
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H13 posted:The problem is that a lot of people "identify" as an ideology. So when they watch a film they aren't doing it to explore a particular ideology, as much as they are looking for personal validation. In other words, the most important thing to that audience member is that the film conforms to their ideology as they are looking to be patted on the back for thinking the same way about something. End result is that they often want the media to be an echo chamber for their ideas, where they get their ideology reflected back at them and anything which does not conform to their ideology is trash, regardless of the quality of the text.
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Jan 11, 2020 04:04
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TychoCelchuuu posted:It's almost mindblowing to think about how much progress you would make if you realize that what you say in this paragraph applies to things that you don't recognize as "ideology," like for instance the way you prefer to read films. It's definitely mindblowing to think how much you wouldn't have needed to post if you had actually engaged with his. \/\/\/ lmao McSpanky fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jan 11, 2020 |
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Jan 11, 2020 12:53
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H13 posted:These were the people I was surrounded by at Uni. I'll never forget one guy who identified as a hardcore Marxist. 20 year old kid with a Karl Marx beard and hairstyle who smoked a loving pipe. Any film that he regarded as "Anti Marx" was immediately a bad film and while most of his interpretations weren't necessarily invalid, his entire perspective on whether or not a film was well-made, engaging, creative or entertaining hinged entirely on whether or not it was Pro-Marxist. He thought he was super witty by declaring which films had "High Marx" and which ones had "Low Marx" Hairstyle and pipe-smoking aside (details you inserted to make us think this student insufferable), passing a Marxist ideological test isn't some masturbatory exercise in personal validation — it's determining whether a given film is useful as agitprop, which is extremely important to any socialist project. If the goal is to heighten class consciousness and develop a disciplined, revolutionary proletariat then a steady diet of good Marxist cinema is part and parcel of that. Considering the limited timespan the human race has to avert climate catastrophe, and the obvious culpability of capitalism in putting us on the fast train to apocalypse, that loving pipe smoker had the right idea, whether he knew it or not.
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Jan 11, 2020 13:00
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20 years old and annoying about Marx is the stepping stone to any respectable communist, IMO.
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Jan 11, 2020 16:44
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H13 posted:I still want something so blatantly obvious it beats you over the head with its ideology though. No point trying to be subtle when you're introducing students to these sort of interpretations. Yes it's true that you can do an ideological read on literally any film but I don't think that's a good way to start learning how to do this. Lierally any movie about american cops/soldiers/CIA agents fighting "bad guys".
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Jan 11, 2020 20:01
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Hace posted:itt goons trying to get high schoolers to watch movies with handies and brutal murder you got us. I'm sure without goon intervention these innocents will never see explicit sex or violence until they reach the appropriate age of 18, at which point they can finally get past those Internet age warning popups
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Jan 11, 2020 20:02
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How about Alita? It's very in-your-face about the future dystopia with a flying city living on top of a literal scrap heap with no hopes of ever getting up there for those who live in the dump. Edit: Even the tie-in music video is pretty explicit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8fTk6oKQg
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Jan 11, 2020 20:42
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Hace posted:itt goons trying to get high schoolers to watch movies with handies and brutal murder I think most of us here watched Robocop and Terminator while still in elementary school, so your concern is really funny.
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Jan 11, 2020 20:49
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Captain Jesus posted:I think most of us here watched Robocop and Terminator while still in elementary school, so your concern is really funny. Surely this just affirms any concern about how being exposed to sex and violence ruins a child's future.
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Jan 11, 2020 21:03
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Hace posted:itt goons trying to get high schoolers to watch movies with handies and brutal murder I mean, I'm kind of colored on this by where I was movie-wise in high school (I saw Drive in theaters as a junior and my hardcore Argento stan phase was junior and senior year), where basically everyone I knew was on it, and what I understand is basically normal for teens nowadays Unless it's a class of Mormons (all the kids I knew that were weird about it were the Mormon kids) they've probably seen a whole shitload of R-rated movies by now, and more on the "actually deserves an R" end than the King's Speech kind of end.
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Jan 11, 2020 21:18
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I saw Alien Resurrection and Starship Troopers in the theater opening day on both when I was 7 and it owned.
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Jan 12, 2020 00:02
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It's going to be childish, but hear me out: if you put The Kid Who Would Be King (2019) next to any of the adventure movies that involve a chosen one or any kind of destiny poo poo (probably a few), you can have a clear and unambiguous contrast that maybe helps them see how pervasive some things are, linking destiny poo poo to societal roles or whatever your flavor be. There is nothing objectionable at all in Kid, and because it's written for elementary schoolers, it's clear and slap-you-in-the-face unambiguous.
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Jan 12, 2020 01:12
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"I am not your Negro" would be an obvious choice. Lots of material to add to it too. "Anomalisa" has a sex scene but it's fairly tame "Get Out" would be a stellar choice. "War for the planet of the apes" + 'can you make an anti-war film' which may dovetail with other films you have them watch. "Shape of Water" Masturbation scenes but they are tame.
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Jan 12, 2020 02:21
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People do understand that this is a classroom setting where, you know, the teacher is expected to be a responsible adult presenting films to minors, all of whom would need to be okay with it to avoid complaints from the parents, complaints which could very easily lead to losing a job or worse? Just because some teachers blur the line and students can accept it doesn't mean it should be standard practice. I'd say that Clint Eastwood tends to make very ideological films, and he has four in the past five years. Sully and 15:17 to Paris are even PG-13, so no concerns about content there. The other two are Richard Jewell (still playing I think) and The Mule. They may not be fantastic films, but I'd say they are good choices for discussion of ideology. Not to mention that this can be a way to suggest his older work both as an actor and director for comparison.
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Jan 12, 2020 05:22
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Jenny Agutter posted:you got us. I'm sure without goon intervention these innocents will never see explicit sex or violence until they reach the appropriate age of 18, at which point they can finally get past those Internet age warning popups its a high school class you ding dong
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Jan 12, 2020 05:28
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Shbobdb posted:
Oh yeah, this is a good one. It also includes Ape Jesus and a "We're gonna build a wall" plot point.
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Jan 12, 2020 14:13
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TrixRabbi posted:Joker's ideology is nihilistic provocation. It wallpapers "eat the rich" capitalist critique as a facade to cover that its an entirely cynical film that doesn't actually give a poo poo about class conditions. Parasite would be a way better choice. “Nihilistic provocation” and “giving a poo poo” aren’t ideologies. These kids are doomed.
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Jan 12, 2020 18:09
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If you can find a censored version like a TV edit to make it more palatable to be shown to high schoolers (There are a lot of racial epithets and you probably don't need to be teaching the shitheads in your class even more slurs they can hurl at people), I'd definitely recommend BlacKKKlansman. Not only is its ideology extremely blatant and easily examined, but it's a very well-made and entertaining film with an extremely timely and relevant message.
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Jan 13, 2020 00:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The problem is that that is not what ideology is, and would result in teaching the students incorrectly. Like, if this were a physics class on what gravity is, OP is talking about magnets. It may be easier to say that people stick to the Earth because it's like a big magnet, but it's also false. if you were attempting to teach children how to read, would you start them off on Dickens, or would you grab a bunch of Dr. Seuss books? this is broadly analogous to that. the OP is attempting to teach his class how to read movies, and is asking for movies that are easy to read. pointing out that every movie can be read is true and valid, but also totally loving useless as an answer to the question. when people call you a disingenuous asshat, this is why: you're being deliberately unhelpful because the OP used a word wrong.
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Jan 13, 2020 05:16
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:when people call you a disingenuous asshat, this is why: you're being deliberately unhelpful because the OP used a word wrong. That’s not what’s happening here, it’s that OP doesn’t know what “ideological” means because they’ve actively avoided learning about it despite being a teacher themselves. Like, how are we supposed to treat them with any respect when one of their stated goals is to shake a student out of a Marxist mindset? When has that ever been a good thing?
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Jan 13, 2020 05:43
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:if you were attempting to teach children how to read, would you start them off on Dickens, or would you grab a bunch of Dr. Seuss books? The OP is not using a word wrong; he has the entire basic concept he is attempting to teach wrong. The closest things to what he is asking for are satirical films (i.e. films that can be read as exemplifying a particular ideology to such a degree that the failings of that ideology are easier to identify). So what’s the closest thing to Starship Troopers today? You can go with Michael Bay’s 13 Hours, if that’s not too ‘inappropriate’. But this is moving away from the more pressing issue, that OP doesn’t know what ideology is.
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Jan 13, 2020 05:46
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don't be willfully obtuse. he's using "ideology" incorrectly, but he's otherwise identified what he's actually looking for in fairly great detail. he's looking to teach his students how to read film on a subtextual level, and he's looking for a film which is simple to read in order to help introduce this concept. being hung up on whether he used "ideology" correctly is pointless and unhelpful, because he fairly clearly just used the wrong word for what he intended; a better phrasing would have been "movies with simple subtext" rather than "ideological movies."
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Jan 13, 2020 06:51
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:don't be willfully obtuse. he's using "ideology" incorrectly, but he's otherwise identified what he's actually looking for in fairly great detail. He is not looking to teach the students about subtext; he explicitly asks for films without subtext (which is its own can of worms). It’s a course apparently called “Ideology and Narrative”, based partly on the Zizek documentary “The Pervert’s Guide To Ideology”.
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Jan 13, 2020 13:49
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Where did the 5 year rule come from? Because it's dumb and you aren't going to find anything better than Starship Troopers or They Live in terms of being obvious as poo poo while also fun to watch. Or you could also do Crash if you really hate your students. If there's really no way around that, maybe Eye in the Sky?
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Jan 13, 2020 14:08
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OP I really hope you go with Parasite, it was good and I think kids could always use a little more reminding that "subtitles are okay"
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Jan 13, 2020 14:40
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I'm sure you're all thrilled to know I've made my decision. First of all: It aint Joker. Joker was in the lead due to how heavy handed it was, however it is fairly wishy-washy. What I said early in this thread was true along the lines of: "It makes an effort not to be too political." It still has a fair bit of social commentary, but what was going to make it suffer was that it was tricky to tie it into any particular "ism" that kids could look up on wikipedia and get a dot-point list of what that "ism" is about. I watched Parasite tonight and drat that's a good movie! It's a proper exploration of the impact of poverty\wealth as well. It shows what the poor think of the rich, as well as what the rich think of the poor. There's no real hero, most of the characters are a borderline villain in some way (some more than others) and if kids already knew how to read movies from an ideological standpoint? This'd be the first movie I'd use. However I do think if you've never looked at films from an ideological standpoint, this movie COULD be a struggle as it doesn't use its ideology to make a point. Which is why I'm going with Blackkklansman. To be honest, I didn't know much about it going in. While watching it I was thinking: "Wow, this seems to be fairly anti-Trump and the racial commentary seems really relevant for today. I wonder if that's just because things haven't evolved much or if it's deliberate." Then the last 5 minutes of the movie are basically "gently caress Trump" and the tribute to the girl who got killed in that BLM rally? "HA okay that was super deliberate while probably being mostly historically accurate too". The reason why this'll be so good to teach teenagers from is because it uses its ideology to make a point. Once kids know what the argument the film is making, they can work backwards from there and see what the film did to support that argument. That's going to lead kids into being able to identify ideological ideas within a film, as well as notice how it can impact the way the narratives are told. And yeah, there's a tonne of hate speech in the film. However, none of it is presented in a convincing way. All of it is used to make the KKK look like the scumbags which they are. Parents get more concerned about sex and violence than they do bad language (even if it is hate speech oddly enough). Interestingly enough, this is why I was considering Ghostbusters. The whole film was constructed on a feminist standpoint. It had mostly a female crew, the male characters were vaguely derogatory, it was a female reboot, then you've got how Sony spun the controversy into marketing etc. etc. etc. The film is a piece of poo poo which is why I absolutely didn't want to use it, but the movie was (badly) attempting to make a feminist point, that could be highlighted to the students, from which they work backwards and spot the ideological influence in it. This is what a lot of you people weren't understanding about what I was looking for. Yes, it's true you can do an ideological read on any film you feel like, from almost any perspective that you feel like and an awful lot of you love to stroke your intellectual penises by doing that (Also if you only look at films from ideological standpoints, I quietly hate you). However I'll be teaching kids the 3 Act Structure, and then you want me to then jump into how Jaws could be perceived as an anti-immigration film? If I did that, the kids WOULD be doomed. Explaining something, and noticing it for yourself are two different things. I needed something whereby I could give the kids a point of reference (IE: The argument the film was making) from which they could then use to notice the ideological influence for themselves. This is what gives Blackkklansman a slight advantage over Parasite. Parasite I would definitely do straight after they got the hang of it from Blackkklansman. I'm hoping to find time in the course to do both, but Blackkklansman is the better starting point. H13 fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 14:29
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Personally, I want to read more of your ideological read of Ghostbusters.
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Jan 17, 2020 20:25
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TychoCelchuuu posted:It's almost mindblowing to think about how much progress you would make if you realize that what you say in this paragraph applies to things that you don't recognize as "ideology," like for instance the way you prefer to read films. OP is a coward and fool for not acknowledging this reply, specifically. I feel bad for the people who he's going to try and teach, because he doesn't have the right to do that.
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Jan 18, 2020 02:00
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KVeezy3 posted:Personally, I want to read more of your ideological read of Ghostbusters. Or any movie. H13 I know I was sassing you earlier, for whatever it is worth, this is an interesting thread and you sound like a genuinely cool teacher. Now I wouldn't describe my penis as "intellectual" or vice versa, but it's very funny and kinda nice that you would. So thanks!
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Jan 18, 2020 21:53
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H13 posted:The reason why this'll be so good to teach teenagers from is because it uses its ideology to make a point. Once kids know what the argument the film is making, they can work backwards from there and see what the film did to support that argument. That's going to lead kids into being able to identify ideological ideas within a film, as well as notice how it can impact the way the narratives are told. grate deceiver posted:Lierally any movie about american cops/soldiers/CIA agents fighting "bad guys". H13 posted:The films which I am deciding between are Black Panther - Which characters the movie portrays as the good guys - Which characters the movie portrays as the bad guys - The job/societal position of the above - The goals of these characters and how they (plan to) achieve them And then ask them to draw a conclusion about what kind of message the movie is trying to get across based on that. Like, that's an entirely surface level reading of the narrative, no "Zombies are a stand-in for the minorities the target audience wish they could murder without consequence" symbolism or anything. Given that the course is focused on "ideology and narrative", that seems like precisely the right way to teach the students - analyze the narrative, then draw a conclusion about the ideology the movie is pushing. It seems like it'd also cover like 90%+ of the movies the students are likely to watch, which are the products of an ideology so pervasive it's become invisible, as opposed to ones where they go outside the narrative to tell you "Eat the rich. Like, literally execute them all and turn them into gruel."
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Jan 19, 2020 12:51
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