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Enjoy posted:Eliminating animal agriculture would reduce emissions as much as switching entirely to nuclear power. I do find it ironic you forget to mention how many farm animals you'd have to cull entirely to do that. One time exception or do you believe farm animals would just be allowed to live? And yeah, in a country where hunger is still a massive issue, the idea that we should eliminate all animal agriculture is still a fantastical idea. Nuclear power is something we've already proven, eliminating all animal agriculture is not.
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May 4, 2022 19:49
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CommieGIR posted:I do find it ironic you forget to mention how many farm animals you'd have to cull entirely to do that. One time exception or do you believe farm animals would just be allowed to live? 80% of calories come from plants already. 75% of arable land is used for animal agriculture. Eliminating animal agriculture would increase food production, not decrease it, while also freeing up land for rewilding and allowing us to suck CO2 out of the air into new forests. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
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May 4, 2022 19:52
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Ok, let's take "the elimination of all animal agriculture and the implementation of universal veganism" as an unalloyed self-evident good thing that we should pursue. What then is the best way to bring about this change? Is it to organize, educate, protest, and elect leaders who will implement the necessary policy? Or, is it to just guilt individuals who don't follow a vegan diet, one by one, until we get there?
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May 4, 2022 19:53
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How are u posted:Ok, let's take "the elimination of all animal agriculture and the implementation of universal veganism" as an unalloyed self-evident good thing that we should pursue. What then is the best way to bring about this change? Is it to organize, educate, protest, and elect leaders who will implement the necessary policy? Or, is it to just guilt individuals who don't follow a vegan diet, one by one, until we get there? It worked on me
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May 4, 2022 19:54
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Enjoy posted:It worked on me Again, that's anecdotal. Do you think that because guilting-to-veganism worked on you that it will work on *everyone*? Or that it is the best way to bring about your desired policy change?
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May 4, 2022 19:55
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Enjoy posted:80% of calories come from plants already. 75% of arable land is used for animal agriculture. Eliminating animal agriculture would increase food production, not decrease it, while also freeing up land for rewilding and allowing us to suck CO2 out of the air into new forests. Just skip that Nutrient density part of that same article did you? Again, you are making a lot of assumptions: The data is good, but the reality is getting society as a whole to go vegan is as much as a lift as just eliminating capitalism. Your personal choice of veganism is not a good reason to believe that everybody will do so: If the problem is consumerism/capitalism, we should focus on fixing that rather than the equally large if not larger lift of eliminating meat from the entirety of everyone's diet.
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May 4, 2022 19:56
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How are u posted:Again, that's anecdotal. Do you think that because guilting-to-veganism worked on you that it will work on *everyone*? Or that it is the best way to bring about your desired policy change? Does reading about emissions and land use make you feel that guilty? I didn't post pictures of dead chickens or whatever, this has not been an emotive argument on my part
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May 4, 2022 19:56
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Enjoy posted:Does reading about emissions and land use make you feel that guilty? I didn't post pictures of dead chickens or whatever, this has not been an emotive argument on my part No, but you are making the same heavy lift demands as just addressing the bigger issues which is capitalism that actually encourages food waste more than meat as a source of nutrients does. Which is more realistic a demand: Eliminating meat as a nutrient product or eliminating consumer capitalism that drives most of the waste to begin with.
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May 4, 2022 19:58
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I consider myself open-minded enough to at least admit that I don't think I'm making the most ethical decision eating meat, but I'm also not really willing to upend my diet in the pursuit of making that change. Given the hostility many others give towards the idea of even eating *less* meat, or switching to meat substitutes, or just the way some people turn the vauge notion into culture war bullshit, veganism-by-guilt does not sound like a strategy that will work on the wide scale.
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May 4, 2022 19:59
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Enjoy posted:Does reading about emissions and land use make you feel that guilty? I didn't post pictures of dead chickens or whatever, this has not been an emotive argument on my part I do a lot of climate activism. I feel guilty about everything, all the time. It so far hasn't been enough to turn me into a complete vegan. I've even, as I mentioned, gone for years cooking only vegan food at home and enjoyed it a lot. Still enjoy meat.
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May 4, 2022 19:59
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Oxyclean posted:Given the hostility many others give towards the idea of even eating *less* meat, or switching to meat substitutes, or just the way some people turn the vauge notion into culture war bullshit, veganism-by-guilt does not sound like a strategy that will work on the wide scale. It is a pretty big ask--food and diet are a pretty big part of human culture. Enjoy posted:Eliminating animal agriculture would reduce emissions as much as switching entirely to nuclear power. You are misinterpreting the footnote in the plot in the article.
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May 5, 2022 01:21
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silence_kit posted:You are misinterpreting the footnote in the plot in the article. Yes I misread it... still, 8 gigatonnes is 16% of global emissions
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May 5, 2022 01:59
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CommieGIR posted:I do find it ironic you forget to mention how many farm animals you'd have to cull entirely to do that. One time exception or do you believe farm animals would just be allowed to live? I don't really want to wade into the whole "who should/shouldn't be vegan" arguments, but it seems like you're implying 1) that animal agriculture in the US (assuming that's the country you're talking about) is at least somewhat efficient, and that 2) this country's hunger issues has anything to do with calories produced. For the first one, do some research on calorie efficiency of the animal industry. Here's a starting point: https://cbey.yale.edu/our-stories/disrupting-meat For the second one, look up food waste in the US. Even if we produced, say 25% less calories (a ballpark estimate based on ~30-40% food waste in this country), there would still be enough calories for every person in this country. That plus profit/capitalism is the reason hunger is a massive issue. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:13 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 02:05
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Kalit posted:For the second one, look up food waste in the US. Even if we produced, say 25% less calories, there would still be enough calories for every person in this country. That plus profit/capitalism is the reason hunger is a massive issue. That's my point, the bigger issue is less the emissions from food animals, but how wasteful the entire system is. We need to solve the Capitalism before we worry about the emissions from food production. That would significantly already impact emissions, and would likely be more easily swallowed than telling the entirety of the world they all need to be vegans.
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May 5, 2022 02:12
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CommieGIR posted:That's my point, the bigger issue is less the emissions from food animals, but how wasteful the entire system is. We need to solve the Capitalism before we worry about the emissions from food production. That would significantly already impact emissions, and would likely be more easily swallowed than telling the entirety of the world they all need to be vegans. Ah, I'm sorry for misinterpreting what your point was. Although, honestly, even if we somehow fully moved from capitalism towards socialism/communism, I doubt that would eliminate our wastefulness/greed/inefficiencies. But by what amount it's reduced by is probably impossible to tell either way
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May 5, 2022 02:23
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Kalit posted:Although, honestly, even if we somehow fully moved from capitalism towards socialism/communism, I doubt that would eliminate our wastefulness/greed/inefficiencies. But by what amount it's reduced by is probably impossible to tell either way Food waste is kind of unavoidable, IMO, if you want to give people constant access to almost any kind of fresh fruit and vegetable imaginable. Fresh food is perishable. Food processing helps to increase the shelf life of food and prevent food waste, but the same people who get upset at food waste tend to be the same people who get upset at 'processed food'. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 03:29 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 03:22
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silence_kit posted:Food waste is kind of unavoidable, IMO, if you want to give people constant access to almost any kind of fresh fruit and vegetable imaginable. Fresh food is perishable. A lot of that is bullshit. I agree you can't eliminate food waste entirely and you can't used "processed" food for all purposes, but plenty of "processed" food is absolutely fine and healthful to eat. Everyone always thinks of bullshit like poptarts, no one thinks about ultra-filtered milk and frozen fruit and canned tomatoes instead of the "natural" equivalent. It's fine, and in many applications, it's actually better tasting and more nutritious because it hasn't had to make it to the supermarket "fresh." Like, if you're going to make a pasta sauce, gently caress using fresh tomatoes. Farmer's market tomatoes are expensive as poo poo, the ones in the grocery store taste like garbage. Use the heirloom tomatoes in something where you actually taste the difference, like gazpacho, and jam a few cans of tomatoes in your pasta sauce.
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May 5, 2022 03:30
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TBH, I still get confused by people who complain about "processed foods". Probably because I'm too literal when I ask them about things like flour  Along with it all being bullshit, as you both insinuate/state Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:46 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 03:44
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Crispr up some lone star mosquitos
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May 5, 2022 20:44
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Harold Fjord posted:Crispr up some lone star mosquitos Ah yes, Bioweapons: The vegan of the future. Joking aside, people tend to forget that Allergies to red meat is not the only side effect of a lone star tick bite, as it can result in hospitalization and severe illness.
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May 5, 2022 21:34
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Harold Fjord posted:Crispr up some lone star mosquitos I'm pretty sure that any government or non-governmental organization that tried to do something this abhorrent would be, rightfully, destroyed. Pretty sure it would be a violation of human rights, as well. e: This is the type of thing that eco-fascists would do.
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May 5, 2022 22:14
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How are u posted:e: This is the type of thing that eco-fascists would do. Nah, ELF (assuming that's the type you meant by "eco-fascist") didn't go after the consumer, they just went after the source
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May 6, 2022 03:54
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Kalit posted:Nah, ELF (assuming that's the type you meant by "eco-fascist") didn't go after the consumer, they just went after the source I think it's safe enough to say that whatever definition of eco-fascist we could come to, it would definitely include "people who would violate basic human rights in pursuit of climate solutions". I think that deliberately infecting the populace with a disease (virus? bacteria? whatever it is) against their will would be categorized as such.
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May 6, 2022 16:47
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Lesser evilism for me, but not for you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 6, 2022 16:51
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