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Iirc the amount of abilities will be changed in the upcoming version of Icon. The author mentioned he wanted to give the baddies less but more impactful abilities.
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Apr 23, 2023 16:01
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That would be better. I look forward to trying whatever update comes out. For now, I'm tempted to try the tactical combat again without using any of the factions, only the basic enemy jobs e.g. the Knuckle. That would at least cut down two layers of ability/trait inheritance.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:08
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The user Ruby in the pilot.net discord has made some really nice tilesets for use in abstract battlemaps. Using these helped break me from the feeling of needing to create/find high-quality images with good map layouts. Some examples: An example of a "tile pallette" I laid out in Foundry using the Moulinette Tiles addon. Higher numbers = higher elevation. The rounded black square represents pits, the x-ed out tile is for impassible areas, the spikes are for dangerous areas, the stairs are stairs, and the four-rectangle overlays are used for the capture points in a King of the Hill map.  A gladiatorial arena kind of map. The central raised area contains the capture points, while four archer towers placed around the arena make it easy for ranged attackers to fire down at the centre with relative impunity. A few bits of scattered cover (overturned crates) are stuck in the sand at random spots.  The deck of a galleon, mid-destruction by thrashing kraken tentacles. The spiky/wavy areas are both difficult and dangerous terrain, representing areas threatened by the kraken. A huge mast blocks off the centre of the deck with some raised stacks of provisions and heavy rope coils surrounding it. Various bits of shattered deck make up the 1-height obstacles littered around the area.  A throne room at the end of a rebellion. Players begin at the bottom, descending onto the white marble floor and presumably avoiding the difficult terrain ("the Path of Penance") that wraps around the Pit of Penance as it heads towards the massive raised throne dais at the north of the room. Six pink limestone pillars block off the sides of the path with more difficult terrain. A handful of overturned shelves act as improvised 1-height barricades (clearly the defenders didn't have time to set more up). I have no idea how these actually play aside from the throne room map, but making them was way more fun than the usual stress I put myself through when it comes to good battlemaps.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:14
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Autodrop Monteur posted:Iirc the amount of abilities will be changed in the upcoming version of Icon. The author mentioned he wanted to give the baddies less but more impactful abilities. Wait, hasn't he been releasing a ton of 1.5 adversaries into play testing the last week or three?
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Apr 23, 2023 23:34
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ICON 1.5 is out with a bunch of big changes and also a bunch of art.
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Jun 9, 2023 00:32
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bewilderment posted:ICON 1.5 is out with a bunch of big changes and also a bunch of art. I've yet to run it but I like this a lot more than prior versions, which I thought were good. Probably still needs some polish, but almost a really exciting system. I struggle to get over my love of number-go-up though. I'll probably try to throw a group together and see how it plays.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:47
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Tolth posted:I've yet to run it but I like this a lot more than prior versions, which I thought were good. Probably still needs some polish, but almost a really exciting system. I struggle to get over my love of number-go-up though. This is a mechanically fantastic game in many ways but it suffers from being tuned around its own core community and their skill level to a potentially crippling degree. The combat side is sublime, but also painfully complex to get into and fairly overwhelming for both players and DMs. There's something absolutely banging here but at the moment I'd only recommend it to people with heavy 4e experience. Which feels like a waste, because this could be super accessible, but we'll see how it evolves.
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Jun 18, 2023 17:07
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Tolth posted:This is a mechanically fantastic game in many ways but it suffers from being tuned around its own core community and their skill level to a potentially crippling degree. The combat side is sublime, but also painfully complex to get into and fairly overwhelming for both players and DMs.
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Jun 20, 2023 05:59
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For what its worth it's a consistent point of feedback and I'm looking at addressing it before release. This game does have a significant overhead in learning its structure + terms which can be offputting. Once you learn it, it's very consistent and I find very fast and easy to run. The release version will have a poo poo ton of visual presentation and flow that will really really help I think, as well as tools for running in person like a status tracker cheat sheet. The next version will also have an entire 'first session' section for introing people to the system as well as 'apprentice' jobs which are much simpler versions of the current jobs with the aim of having people learn the basic mechanics of each of the four classes. Lancer remains very popular and I think if people can learn Lancer they can learn and enjoy this game.
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Jun 20, 2023 13:35
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Yeah, I've been following the game but haven't delved into playtesting just because I trust the final release and the layout that goes with it to make the game a lot easier to grasp. I 'get it' now, but I'm sure it'll be much easier to explain to others in the final release.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:04
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Tolth posted:This is a mechanically fantastic game in many ways but it suffers from being tuned around its own core community and their skill level to a potentially crippling degree. The combat side is sublime, but also painfully complex to get into and fairly overwhelming for both players and DMs. suffers? this is pretty much the best endorsement i could possibly hear
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Jun 20, 2023 15:54
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I'm also in the "wait until it's at the finish line before really cramming it into my brain" camp, but I think there's something of a discussion to be had as to whether an RPG really needs to appeal to a demographic outside of "people who are super into this other sort of game, and will put in the effort to grasp it."
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Jun 20, 2023 23:44
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It’s entirely OK to make something that is hard to learn but rewards expertise with deep and satisfying choices, you just have to make sure you market it appropriately or your product will drown in 1-star reviews complaining that it’s nothing like TAZ.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:03
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Subjunctive posted:It’s entirely OK to make something that is hard to learn but rewards expertise with deep and satisfying choices, you just have to make sure you market it appropriately or your product will drown in 1-star reviews complaining that it’s nothing like TAZ. At the risk of being accused of being overly cynical, in a market where D&D dominates the fantasy TRPG demographic and people will unironically argue that learning any other game is simply an unreasonable ask of them, I'm not sure there is a way to market your non-D&D fantasy TRPG where this doesn't happen.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:11
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Kai Tave posted:At the risk of being accused of being overly cynical, in a market where D&D dominates the fantasy TRPG demographic and people will unironically argue that learning any other game is simply an unreasonable ask of them, I'm not sure there is a way to market your non-D&D fantasy TRPG where this doesn't happen. Well, you might just sputter for breath instead of drowning, I guess, if you’re lucky?
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Jun 21, 2023 00:18
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I think at this point "it's a fantasy RPG by the Kill 6 Billion Demons and Lancer guy" is probably some of the most effective marketing you can ask for in the non-D&Dosphere outside of grabbing a license like Avatar the Last Airbender or something, and I'm inclined to think that if people are copacetic with a game like Lancer that ICON shouldn't really be a much bigger ask.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:24
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My group has only been using the not fighting rules so I might be talking out of my rear end but I don't think depth in combat is gonna be a breaking point for people invested in the system and what the game offers
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Jun 21, 2023 00:29
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Kai Tave posted:At the risk of being accused of being overly cynical, in a market where D&D dominates the fantasy TRPG demographic and people will unironically argue that learning any other game is simply an unreasonable ask of them, I'm not sure there is a way to market your non-D&D fantasy TRPG where this doesn't happen. I have absolutely seen people struggle repeatedly to understand non-DnD rules after the DM has patiently explained them multiple times and still try to operate on DnD logic anyways. I think a certain growing subset of the ttrpg population has been hard-wired into thinking that 5E rules are as universal as gravity or something.
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Jun 21, 2023 10:49
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:suffers? this is pretty much the best endorsement i could possibly hear Operant posted:The release version will have a poo poo ton of visual presentation and flow that will really really help I think, as well as tools for running in person like a status tracker cheat sheet. The next version will also have an entire 'first session' section for introing people to the system as well as 'apprentice' jobs which are much simpler versions of the current jobs with the aim of having people learn the basic mechanics of each of the four classes. Kai Tave posted:I think at this point "it's a fantasy RPG by the Kill 6 Billion Demons and Lancer guy" is probably some of the most effective marketing you can ask for in the non-D&Dosphere outside of grabbing a license like Avatar the Last Airbender or something, and I'm inclined to think that if people are copacetic with a game like Lancer that ICON shouldn't really be a much bigger ask.
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Jun 21, 2023 13:25
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Tolth posted:You sure sound like you have a lot of experience in marketing. You must really know your stuff. It's really cool that you're being an rear end in a top hat about this for no reason.
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Jun 21, 2023 14:48
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as I understand it Kai Tave has written and published a number of first-party LANCER supplements and a spin-off game, and is probably better-qualified than anyone else in this thread to speak to Massif Press's ability to move books, unless Abaddon still posts here
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Jun 21, 2023 15:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:as I understand it Kai Tave has written and published a number of first-party LANCER supplements and a spin-off game, and is probably better-qualified than anyone else in this thread to speak to Massif Press's ability to move books, unless Abaddon still posts here Abaddon is Operant who just posted upthread earlier. I don't have like spreadsheets of sales data on hand but based on conversations with Tom, Lancer has had and continues to have strong sales, including associated supplements and side-projects, and that's years on from its Kickstarter which was also extremely successful. While nothing is ever guaranteed, in terms of starting out with several legs up it's hard to beat already having several extremely popular and successful projects people will likely have heard of under your belt (Lancer, K6BD) along with the associated outreach of both, to say nothing of the advantages that a strong visual art game brings to any aspiring tabletop project. "Already be famous and have lots of sick art to show off" are, it turns out, strong starting points for a lot of things and not just RPGs.
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Jun 21, 2023 15:33
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Kai Tave posted:Abaddon is Operant who just posted upthread earlier. oh, woops lol
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Jun 21, 2023 15:44
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I did a playtest of ICON GM'ing for a group of players who only played 5E and a Paranoia & Call of Cthulhu oneshot here and there. It's true there was a bit of a struggle with the rules overhead at first, but the consistency and clarity of the rules meant my players could just help look up rules as well when something during play wasn't clear. (which was a delight, after having dm'd a lot of 5E before!) The biggest struggle was keeping track of all the various status effects and blights. And I'm glad blights are no longer part of the current iteration. Glad to hear a status tracker sheet is coming in the release version. As for the game itself, my players really enjoyed finding strategies and combinations of moves after they got hold of the system. The Geomancer loved creating pillars for the Colossus to use as a dropkick vantage point. Game owns and we all can't wait for the release version! Kulkasha posted:I have absolutely seen people struggle repeatedly to understand non-DnD rules after the DM has patiently explained them multiple times and still try to operate on DnD logic anyways. I think a certain growing subset of the ttrpg population has been hard-wired into thinking that 5E rules are as universal as gravity or something.
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Jun 21, 2023 16:36
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I am presently in two campaigns that converted over to ICON from 5E. There was definitely some difficulty in the conversion--not because of system flaws, just that if you sat me down with each system and asked me to write a character within an archetype (mage/martial/etc.) for a given setting, I would end up with two very different characters, just based on how classes are built. About the one complaint I've had (in the previous release, where Blights are still a big thing, I haven't played the most recent one, so this may have changed) was playing an Enochian and fighting a boss that had the Skirmisher trait that prevents damage on misses and AoE damage, and realizing that none of abilities did anything anymore--it was immune to all of the added tricks the class is built around, so I was functionally just moving and attacking, and it was a disappointing end to an adventure. It's an annoying ability to run into on normal enemies, but there's usually other targets to handle. But on a boss, that kind of flat immunity is really rough.
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Jun 21, 2023 20:05
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i haven't had a chance to play ICON yet but the degree of emphasis on resistance / immunity vs. "this ability bypasses X immunity" dynamics are one of my very few complaints with LANCER as a system (the other one is movement in 3D space, which i'd really like to just see eliminated completely)
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Jun 21, 2023 20:59
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3D movement in ICON is, last time I checked, largely gone. Flying is just a movement buff that lets you cross over terrain and pits without any problems, and I think (but can't confirm) that even the abstracted elevation system that existed might be getting tinkered with or rolled back in some fashion.
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Jun 21, 2023 21:39
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(Almost?) every PC attack doing Fray damage does a lot to counter one of my biggest issues in Lancer, which was the Invisible status(Evasion, in Icon) being the king of blueballs on enemies if you didn't bring along reliable or anti-invis stuff.
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Jun 22, 2023 03:59
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The Lord of Hats posted:About the one complaint I've had (in the previous release, where Blights are still a big thing, I haven't played the most recent one, so this may have changed) was playing an Enochian and fighting a boss that had the Skirmisher trait that prevents damage on misses and AoE damage, and realizing that none of abilities did anything anymore--it was immune to all of the added tricks the class is built around, so I was functionally just moving and attacking, and it was a disappointing end to an adventure. 'Triangle' breaking traits are actually off Legends now for this exact reason. All those fights have been revamped too.
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Jun 22, 2023 12:40
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