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Someone in the AEW thread mentioned southern style wrestling inspiring the Young Bucks/Lucha Brothers match. I can read wikipedia I've watched wrestling for a long time but I want to know about the style of wrestling that eventually inspired ECW and FMW I know of the barbed wire matches, the concession stand brawls, and the Memphis fireball but I'd like to know more about this style of wrestling. In the late 80's I know of a lot of blood feuds started happening in Mexico (Mask/Hair/Career matches), in the South over pride (Barbed Wire and brawling), and Puerto Rico (Who took that inspiration and went further with things like the fire death matches) But I only know of them. Help me understand what lead up to those types of matches, who took it a step further, and what were the greatest blood feuds of the 80's and 90's. How did it evolve into the type of matches we have today like the light tubes of Japan and GCW?
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Sep 6, 2021 19:04
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you can start with the concession stand brawl in memphis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTndTO1tqVk its the genesis for hardcore wrestling other matches had left the ring and brawled in the stands but this was the first to use weird weapons in a match and kinda move out of the ring area in a real sense. others who are more knowledgeable in memphis will have more feuds but this is one of the granddaddays of the style Suplex Liberace fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Sep 6, 2021 |
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Sep 6, 2021 22:27
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Tampa Bae posted:Someone in the AEW thread mentioned southern style wrestling inspiring the Young Bucks/Lucha Brothers match. I can read wikipedia I've watched wrestling for a long time but I want to know about the style of wrestling that eventually inspired ECW and FMW Watch the IWA Japan King of the Deathmatch 95 tournament. http://new.ivpvideos2.com/product_info.php?products_id=89 It's formative for the genre because it makes Mick Foley in Japan. El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Sep 6, 2021 |
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Sep 6, 2021 22:36
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Suplex Liberace posted:you can start with the concession stand brawl in memphis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTndTO1tqVk And during this era of southern wrestling, Atsushi Onita was touring the US with Masanobu Fuchi. When his injuries caught up with his 80s junior heavyweight style, Onita started FMW in Japan based around a higher risk version of the brawling spectacle style he had learned in Memphis. This page on the history of FMW is a great resource: http://fmwwrestling.us/FMWHistory.html
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Sep 6, 2021 22:51
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Watch the IWA Japan King of the Deathmatch 95 tournament. Memphis brawling, Invader(?) coughing up pig's blood, and that sort of stuff
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Sep 6, 2021 23:34
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Watch the IWA Japan King of the Deathmatch 95 tournament. What follows is a patchy informal history of deathmatch wrestling as told by coconono, deathmatch wrestling fan. It is by no means complete or accurate. This really is the genesis of hardcore/deathmatch wrestling. While you can point at bloody territories like Puerto Rico or WCCW, or iconic brawls like the Tupelo Concession Stand Brawl, the IWA deathmatch tournament VHS was the influencer for ECW's deathmatch forays, which later influenced CZW & IWA-MS(DS and EC), and from whom GCW, NPU and ICW:NHB all draw lineage from. The major common name for early hardcore is Atsushi Onita. Japanese dude with roots in American wrestling. Currently has a promotion called FMW-E, which is a derivative of the legendary Frontier Martial Arts Wrestling(FMW). FMW, alongside BJW fostered deathmatch wrestling in the japanese scene spawning all manner of smaller offshoot promotions, including Apache Pro, FREEDOMS. There are other important names, such as Jun Kasai(who is VERY important), Hayabusa(RIP, find comps of this dude), Great Kojika, Mr Pogo(this dude should be in jail probably), Leatherface(RIP? there were several iterations but I believe all have since passed), as well as others helped create a wrestling microcosm that produced great wrestlers such as Daisuke Seikimoto, Abdullah Kobayashi, Emi Sakura, Kaori Yoneyama, Ryuji Ito and many others. On the american side, Ian Rotten and John Zandig are the early names you want to look for. Nick Gage(alongside Jun Kasai) represent a "second generation" of deathmatch wrestlers and the start of the hybrid style that mixes the bloody displays with shoot or strong style wrestling. Sick Nick Mondo, Trent Acid(RIP), Justice Pain(RIP), Nate Hatred(RIP), Drake Younger(gently caress this guy), Necro Butcher(watch Joe vs Butcher but otherwise gently caress this guy) and many others rounded out a highly influential generation not just for deathmatches but for wrestling in general. Modern deathmatch wrestling is global and wholly inclusive. Folx of all walks of life are welcome to bleed as long as they are respectful to the culture, the fans and each other. Even Ian Rotten(who had long since relegated to gently caress That Guy status) has cleaned up his act, making the IWA-MS deathmatch scene part of the larger network supported by GCW, No Peace Underground, ICW No Holds Barred and numerous little popup self produced deathmatch shows. Names like Jeff Cannonball, John Wayne Murdoch, Mickie Knuckles(very dangerous but also very sweet), Sadika(dangerous lunatic), Nick Gage(enjoying a folkhero resurgence after jailtime helped him get cleaned up), Matt Tremont(who is presently in a state of retiring and unretiring), Eric Ryan, Alex Colon, and a bunch of others oh god I said too many words again. While going through the history is neat, I really reccommend jumping into the modern scene post haste. Go to the live shows when they come near you, even if you're alone, you will have an excellent time yelling for blood. here's the cagematch link to the card for the IWA Japan KOTDM 95 so you can wikihole: https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=24107&page=2 here's a banger FMW card: https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=20492&page=2 I believe all these are up on IVP or similar sites. IWTV has a lot of FREEDOMS cards, shows NPU and ICW regularly live. BJW has its own streaming service that I haven't used. CZW is pretty much a steal it and don't give them money situation because gently caress DJ Hyde(called the cops on a GCW show because he thought they didn't have wrestlers immigration papers in order). GCW runs regularly on FITE.tv oh god I can't stop writing words
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Sep 6, 2021 23:59
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Tampa Bae posted:I had a fourth-hand VHS copy of the tournament and I've seen both the ICP and the Tokyopop dubs of the tournament but I'm looking for the kind of stuff that inspired that. Memphis brawls are not easy to come by, but one match I'll direct you to is Piper vs Valentine Dog Collar Match from Starrcade 82. Also, track down as much Dusty Rhodes and Kevin Sullivan in Florida as you can. Florida is as influential as Memphis to companies like FMW, IWA and ECW. Also ask Bix, he's got a good handle on territory days.
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Sep 7, 2021 00:57
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Oh also the Magnum TA/Tully Blanchard I Quit match if you want to see some 80s rear end dudes beat the dogshit out of each other until the ring is covered in blood.
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Sep 7, 2021 01:30
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Lumbermouth posted:Oh also the Magnum TA/Tully Blanchard I Quit match if you want to see some 80s rear end dudes beat the dogshit out of each other until the ring is covered in blood. Starrcade 85. Every match on that card had juice. If you can find an unmolested copy of the original broadcast, you're in for a treat. Both the WWE 24/7 and the VHS release were chopped down quite a bit.
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Sep 7, 2021 03:37
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deathmatching rules
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Sep 7, 2021 03:40
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Tampa Bae posted:I had a fourth-hand VHS copy of the tournament and I've seen both the ICP and the Tokyopop dubs of the tournament but I'm looking for the kind of stuff that inspired that. the pigs blood story isn't really deathmatch adjacent, but it's loving weird so during a match between manny fernandez and invader #3 manny goes to the top and drops a knee on invader's chest. invaders starts spewing copious amounts of blood from his mouth, and manny drops two more knees while the ref is kinda trying to stop him but not really. the video is on youtube if you really want to see it but it's pretty disturbing some think it was a shoot, there's a claim that invader was chugging a mixture of pigs blood and vodka backstage. years later manny says it was a shoot retaliation for the death of bruiser brody, which sounds plausible except for a couple things: -invader 3 isn't the same guy as invader 1, the guy who stabbed brody (i don't know how they were tied together in kayfabe) -the match happened two months before brody died which points to it being a work, except that the guy who was invader 3 didn't have another match for a decade, which would be the sell job of all sell jobs so either they decided to do a gruesome gimmick out of nowhere for some reason or manny fernandez shoot tried to murder someone in the middle of the ring
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Sep 7, 2021 06:25
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While the Southern style is important don't forget The Sheik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sheik_(wrestler)) in Detroit who provided wrestling magazine with plenty of bloody and shocking images, and pioneered the use of fire balls in a match. Wrestled in Japan as well doing hardcore stuff way earlier than you'd expect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b-VZBAukss
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Sep 7, 2021 07:56
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fez_machine posted:While the Southern style is important don't forget The Sheik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sheik_(wrestler)) in Detroit who provided wrestling magazine with plenty of bloody and shocking images, and pioneered the use of fire balls in a match. you reminded me that while he's known to this day, and also a scumbag, Abdullah the Butcher played a huge part too Bruiser Brody as well but he wasn't a scumbag like Abdullah, though temperamental would fit
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Sep 7, 2021 08:49
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these guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixiK2JMlZ6k helped inspire hardcore wrestling in japan . dory even trained the hardy boys who went and did tlc matches in wwe. also anyone who hasnt watched it should watch rikidozan vs destroyer because its basically the match that started wrestling in japan. destroyer helped train the first class of ajpw recruits who got sent to amarillo to work in the funk promotion which included onita who went on to start fmw and wrestled in the first exploding barbed wire match. after onita got trained he got sent to memphis where you had guys throwing fireballs and hitting people with loaded rackets which evolves into c4 and landmines in fmw. here are some old people arguing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAXnS0JWFaQ but we all know hardcore and deathmatches suck Slaapaav fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 02:47
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There's a lack of Bruiser Brody and Abdullah the Butcher matches in this thread. They had plenty of matches all over the territories like WCCW and WWC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFwnf5BOsXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWXGMj40eC4 At one time, Meltzer considered Slaughter vs Patterson Alley Fight the best match he'd ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDkBfVyF74 Lance Russell's commentary really makes it for this match too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2peOLg5gqKY Here's a compilation of early BJW matches. It's more like FMW, WING, and IWA Japan than what we think of modern death matches. Before Honma wrestled for AJPW or NJPW, he was a death match worker. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gTn94lsEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOra-e0lVIM Almost forgot about Hayabusa. Mostly known for his high flying, he did his share of deathmatches too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqPGWPPcXVw Deathmatches with women in the 90's wasn't as common but this match is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmw3TyNtZhE There's some guys like Mr. Pogo or Tarzan Goto that were pretty popular back in the 90's but I don't know if it's worth looking up today. They did the "I'll throw you into something, you throw me into something, then we'll bleed"
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Sep 12, 2021 15:00
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FMW's theatrics were way ahead of the game. Their explosions looked so violent and brutal and the exploding cage they built still looks great. That's who Tony Khan should've went to for the exploding death match stuffmariooncrack posted:There's some guys like Mr. Pogo or Tarzan Goto that were pretty popular back in the 90's but I don't know if it's worth looking up today. They did the "I'll throw you into something, you throw me into something, then we'll bleed"
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Sep 12, 2021 16:40
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Tampa Bae posted:FMW's theatrics were way ahead of the game. Their explosions looked so violent and brutal and the exploding cage they built still looks great. That's who Tony Khan should've went to for the exploding death match stuff It's always weird seeing Pogo as a normal, somewhat mediocre wrestler in random 1980s territories, knowing what a menace he'd become in the 1990s thanks to FMW and Puerto Rico.
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Sep 12, 2021 17:10
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CombineThresher posted:It's always weird seeing Pogo as a normal, somewhat mediocre wrestler in random 1980s territories, knowing what a menace he'd become in the 1990s thanks to FMW and Puerto Rico.
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Sep 12, 2021 17:13
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Tampa Bae posted:He was just the polar opposite to Onita, Hayabusa, and Megumi Kudo who would crawl through hell to make a match good, he just kept putting himself over and never got receipts. I remember him taking maybe two or three big bumps ever and one was into a barbed wire trampoline Tiger Jeet Singh also had this reputation
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Sep 12, 2021 17:17
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Tampa Bae posted:In Mr Pogo's case it was always "I'll throw you into something, I'll stab you with my sickle, might even light you on fire but I'm probably not taking a bump this match" Tampa Bae posted:He was just the polar opposite to Onita, Hayabusa, and Megumi Kudo who would crawl through hell to make a match good, he just kept putting himself over and never got receipts. I remember him taking maybe two or three big bumps ever and one was into a barbed wire trampoline Dude broke his neck in a deathmatch with terry funk, he adopted that style out of necessity afterwards.
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Sep 12, 2021 17:22
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little munchkin posted:Dude broke his neck in a deathmatch with terry funk, he adopted that style out of necessity afterwards.
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Sep 12, 2021 17:29
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Watch the IWA Japan King of the Deathmatch 95 tournament. Don't watch this it is horrible. It's really boring. The basic history is Onita is inspired by Memphis and Puerto Rico and FMW slowly transforms form a weird mixed style (with boxers and martial artists) to more and more death matches. But a big focus on spectacle. FMW would run huge stadium shows with grand entrances like Sasuke coming in on a helicopter, interpromotional stuff, and their death matches were big. Stuff like the Exploding Cages, Exploding Pool Death match and the rest of the stuff that really got attention were larger than life with huge explosions and lots of over the top theatrics. For example you would have Onita win a timebomb match before the explosion and then heroically use his body to protect someone else from the explosion like AEW tried to do with the dud. Smaller groups start springing up, including some notable big time flops like IWA Japan, and offshoots of FMW that Onita would do to create interpromotional rivalries. The most successful long term would be Big Japan. ECW is also getting bigger in the US and Heyman wants to use some FMW wrestlers and especially Onita to do an explosion match. But getting Onita to do an explosion match in the US is a white whale for two decades, and realistically still is. ECW can never put it together, CZW couldn't until 2018 (and it wasn't a true explosion match, they just had the bat) and it might actually happen next month but we'll see. Because of this ECW never really advances beyond barbed wire matches and the Taipei death match in terms of gore and spectacle. In the late 90s ECW starts inspiring a generation of guys who want to out do ECW. You get the formation of Rob Black's XPW and Zandig starting a CZW with the first crop of trainees such as Gage, Justice Pain and Lobo, plus other new local guys like Wifebeater, Trend Acid, etc. CZW gets a relationship with Big Japan early on which leads to CZW guys going to big Japan. This relationship falls apart due to Zandig being so hard to work with, but you get a period where CZW guys are doing tours with Big Japan and Big Japan belts are in the US. You also have former ECW guys like Ian Rotten starting companies which gives us IWA Mid South. XPW was more directly antagonistic to ECW. They were closer to ECW's style but did death matches and a death match tournament. The company was horribly mismanaged and just terrible in general. Unlike CZW and IWA MS it didn't seem to realize that they would have to shift to a mix of hardcore and workrate to keep fans. Both CZW and IWA MS did make that transition and CZW had a ton of success in the early to mid 2000s, regularly drawing 1,000+ people at the former ECW Arena. IWA MS got a lot of buzz (but never the attendance success) for their workrate tournaments and both were the go to death match promotions in the US. Zandig eventually sold to DJ Hyde and CZW. DJ is very contentious (somehow more so than Zandig!) and can in large part be seen as the reason GCW came to be what it is today.
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Sep 12, 2021 18:40
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https://twitter.com/SirLARIATO/status/1437020536480075781?s=19
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Sep 13, 2021 00:33
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Tiger Jeet Singh also had this reputation he had so many horrible matches with inoki and ive watched atleast 10+ of them. did he at any point in his career have decent matches with someone? maybe one of those he had with inoki were decent but their batting average was extremely low. mariooncrack posted:There's a lack of Bruiser Brody
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Sep 13, 2021 01:50
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Slaapaav posted:he had so many horrible matches with inoki and ive watched atleast 10+ of them. did he at any point in his career have decent matches with someone? maybe one of those he had with inoki were decent but their batting average was extremely low.
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Sep 13, 2021 01:55
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Singh's only real charm is no one ever really smartened him up. Pogo was just violent criminal that everyone tolerated for some unfathomable reason.
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Sep 13, 2021 02:12
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Best thing about Pogo is how someone put out a fake story about him wearing his full gimmick as a Yakuza enforcer and I think Alvarez said it was true
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Sep 13, 2021 02:23
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As far as I remember, didn't ECW back away from no rope barbed wire deathmatches because of how ugly Sabu vs. Terry Funk got? Even if they didn't, they still advertised the Born To Be Wired tape on their Hardcore TV show and I actually ended up buying it. The match really did live up to its hype though; Sabu tears his arm on the barbed wire and frantically tries to tape it up while still trying to sell Terry Funk's exhausted offense, and by the end of the match the two men are in a tangled mess of barbed wire. The rest of the tape is pretty meh. Also the other funny thing is how XPW, who put on their own Sabu vs Terry Funk match which was terrrrrrrible, started basically because ECW backed away from a deal where Rob Black's porn company would distribute their DVDs in return for having a bunch of porn ads in them, and Rob Black took it super personally.
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Sep 13, 2021 02:52
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Auritech posted:As far as I remember, didn't ECW back away from no rope barbed wire deathmatches because of how ugly Sabu vs. Terry Funk got? Even if they didn't, they still advertised the Born To Be Wired tape on their Hardcore TV show and I actually ended up buying it. The match really did live up to its hype though; Sabu tears his arm on the barbed wire and frantically tries to tape it up while still trying to sell Terry Funk's exhausted offense, and by the end of the match the two men are in a tangled mess of barbed wire. The rest of the tape is pretty meh. They still promoted matches with barbed wire in them but I think that was the last No Ropes Barbed Wire match in ECW. Although in late 99 they promoted Dreamer vs Credible in a Stairway to Heaven match for the ECW on TNN taping in the Westchester County Center and bait and switched us. After the show started they claimed the commission wouldn't allow barbed wire so there would be a singapore cane hanging from the ceiling. Lame!
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Sep 13, 2021 02:57
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this is decent if you consider the men involved (tiger jeet singh and abdullah the butcher) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5b57a-ziUk abdullah the butcher has a quality that antonio inoki sadly lacks (willingness to even try to make his opponent look good)
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Sep 13, 2021 03:04
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Tampa Bae posted:Pogo had this charm of wanting someone, anyone to put him in his place. There is a certain charm to how lazy Pogo got, but if I had to work with some of the lunks he got stuck with, I'd do as little as possible too. Matsunaga was loving awful.
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Sep 14, 2021 16:23
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Hey now, Mitsuhiro Matsunaga wasn't about silly things like wrestling moves. He was about crazy stunts and kicking dudes. And my whole interest in watching death match tapes when I was a kid was the crazy stunts. Piranha tank? He's going in. Scorpion tank? He's going in. Sure, wrestling is fake but you can't fake those piranha. Yeah, I know it's not really dangerous but still. Is there a stage? Mr. Danger is probably jumping off it. He wore a crown of barded wire. His little turn into a senton off a scaffold onto a dude in a barded wire spiderweb was great. To highschool age me, that was cool enough to make a knock off CAW in No Mercy. Also, I think he has a steak house.
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Sep 15, 2021 01:56
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Tampa Bae posted:FMW's theatrics were way ahead of the game. Their explosions looked so violent and brutal and the exploding cage they built still looks great. That's who Tony Khan should've went to for the exploding death match stuff Onita bringing back FMW because he got so annoyed about the lovely explosions in AEW is so good. It's insane being there when they set those bombs off. Shadow WX is playing Mr. Pogo now and he'll take the explosion bumps but the sickle spots still suck
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Sep 15, 2021 03:19
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i borrowed a tokyopop fmw dvd from a friend and one of the matches had a close up of pogo sticking the sickle a half inch deep in some poor motherfuckers back and twisting it. was a million times worse than the main event (i think that one was H vs gannosuke with the awful shawn michaels promo at the end) bless those dvds for turning me into a fmw and hayabusa mark. just wish the english commentary wasn't so awful
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Sep 15, 2021 03:43
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The spot monkey cage of death was a landmark moment in mixing work rate with dumb gimmick poo poo. It's where the Jack Evans botching a Spanish fly off a cage to the outside and landing on concrete comes from. I think cage of death 5 also had mdogg20 vs Matt Sydal which was also an amazing Flippy spot fest death Match.
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Sep 15, 2021 05:25
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I finally came upon a good upload of the FMW Exploding Pool match AKA the No Ropes Exploding Barbed wire Exploding Swimming Pool Death Match It's pretty dumb but good fun. The pool spots are hilarious. Just a heads up that Mr. Pogo goes to town on Onita with his sickle so if you don't like that... Just fast forward through https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1u5RmM504M
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Sep 20, 2021 00:19
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MassRafTer posted:CZW gets a relationship with Big Japan early on which leads to CZW guys going to big Japan. This relationship falls apart due to Zandig being so hard to work with, but you get a period where CZW guys are doing tours with Big Japan and Big Japan belts are in the US. Still so loving salty about this feud. The booking was terribly one sided in CZW's favor and Zandig was always going over. Terrible. BJW in 2000 had the trio of Honma, Ryuji Yamakawa and Shadow WX who could reliably put on banger deathmatches in any combination (the Honma/Yamakawa Nail & Barbwire Board match from 2000 is one of my all time favorites and far ahead of its time in terms of workrate) but the CZW invasion kind of put a stop to that for a few years. Honma moved on to AJPW and then NJPW and quit doing deathmatches, Yamakawa took time off in 2001 and 2002 due to injuries and was never the same, and WX couldn't carry it all on his own. Took a few years of Zandig v. Matsunaga until the next crop of Ito, Kobayashi etc. were ready. And now BJW's deathmatch division is in a state where they're clearly afraid of letting younger talent go over & shine, so as far as match quality and freshness goes FREEDOMS is probably the premiere Japanese deathmatch indy at this point.
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Sep 27, 2021 09:28
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Bushmeister posted:Still so loving salty about this feud. The booking was terribly one sided in CZW's favor and Zandig was always going over. Terrible. OTOH now Honmania is running wild, brother.
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Sep 27, 2021 11:27
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