Why You Should Go Vegan

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Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

World Famous W posted:

since the thread has revived and i just noticed it, i would like to ask for opinions s on something ive pondered for a minute. ive mostly given up buying meat because of environmental reasons (animal ethics and rights are not a huge concern of mine). however, i help at a foodbank at least once a week and bring home meat from it. it amounts for most the meat in my diet.

is it unethical to take meat that is at the rear end end of the supply chain, essentially spoilage headed to the trash, and consume it? ive given no money for it (though the donating stores get tax credits i assume), it will literally go to waste, and im poor and its free

i also take plenty of bread, fruit and vegetables from the food bank as well

For my 2 cents, I wouldn't overthink it. If it's going to be thrown out and no one else wants it, then I would argue there are no noticeable environmental impacts. I'm sure you could go down the rabbit hole of "well if it's marked down as waste vs not then...". But IMO, at that point, eh.

Granted, that could lead to less than desirable social situations, such as refusing meat that's being offered as a meal from family/friends if didn't know you only eat meat that's already going to waste. That's a big part of why I just completely avoid a few different things, such as honey. It's easier for me to just say no to all of it instead of acting like a pretentious rear end in a top hat and refuse a friend's dessert with honey from an unknown source when I eat honey in other [non-bee killing] situations.

In the end, I think reducing meat/animal product consumption is a good goal from an environmental perspective, even if it doesn't end up being 100% of the time.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Nov 21, 2023

# ? Nov 21, 2023 06:55

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:09

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Kalit posted:

For my 2 cents, I wouldn't overthink it. If it's going to be thrown out and no one else wants it, then I would argue there are no noticeable environmental impacts. I'm sure you could go down the rabbit hole of "well if it's marked down as waste vs not then...". But IMO, at that point, eh.

Granted, that could lead to less than desirable social situations, such as refusing meat that's being offered as a meal from family/friends if didn't know you only eat meat that's already going to waste. That's a big part of why I just completely avoid a few different things, such as honey. It's easier for me to just say no to all of it instead of acting like a pretentious rear end in a top hat and refuse a friend's dessert with honey from an unknown source when I eat honey in other [non-bee killing] situations.

In the end, I think reducing meat/animal product consumption is a good goal from an environmental perspective, even if it doesn't end up being 100% of the time.

Maple syrup/golden syrup are nicer than honey IMO. In the UK maple syrup is quite expensive but golden syrup is cheaper than honey.

# ? Dec 3, 2023 12:22

digitalist: Nov 17, 2000; Qu’elle soit extra ou ordinaire
Chaque vie finit d'la même manière
C'est la seule justice sur la Terre
Tous égaux dans le cimetière

It's nice to see this thread come back to life, I had bookmarked it a while ago but had to come to accept it was forgotten.

This isn't directly related to veganism, but I'm reading a book about eating called "Eating in Theory" by Annemarie Mol, who is one of my favorite anthropologists. I'm maybe half way through it, so a ways to go before drawing any definitive conclusions, but it's been interesting so far and thought it might also be interesting to people here. Not sure it discusses veganism in depth, I still have a ways to go, but I'd argue still relevant and surely provides a fresh perspective from which to look at food, eating, and what that means to humans.

quote:

As we taste, chew, swallow, digest, and excrete, our foods transform us, while our eating, in its turn, affects the wider earthly environment. In Eating in Theory Annemarie Mol takes inspiration from these transformative entanglements to rethink what it is to be human. Drawing on fieldwork at food conferences, research labs, health care facilities, restaurants, and her own kitchen table, Mol reassesses the work of authors such as Hannah Arendt, Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Hans Jonas, and Emmanuel Levinas. They celebrated the allegedly unique capability of humans to rise above their immediate bodily needs. Mol, by contrast, appreciates that as humans we share our fleshy substance with other living beings, whom we cultivate, cut into pieces, transport, prepare, and incorporate�and to whom we leave our excesses. This has far-reaching philosophical consequences. Taking human eating seriously suggests a reappraisal of being as transformative, knowing as entangling, doing as dispersed, and relating as a matter of inescapable dependence.

https://www.dukeupress.edu/eating-in-theory

If anyone does actually end up reading it, I'd love to talk about it

# ? Dec 4, 2023 00:24

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

crazyvanman posted:

Is it not also possible to have a level of respect for plants that is based not in trying to decide whether they are 'equal' to animals, but just that they are different? I tend to work with the logic:
- It would be great if I could just survive on air, thus not having to damage or kill any other living being
- This is not possible; I must eat something to survive
- I can survive and thrive without eating other animals and their secretions

So, I eat plants. But I can still have a relationship with them that feels (and yes, I realise this slippery subjective slope) less exploitative and damaging. I harvest plants from the wild, I plant seeds and allow the plant grow through as much of its life as possible before taking it, and so on. I respect plants to the level that I will go out of my way to not step on ones that can't tolerate foot traffic. I also respect them enough to base a large part of my life to understanding them, how to cultivate them and how to survive by them. In fact it's one of the things that frustrates me about vegans - we are usually much more obssessed with animals than plants, even though we have vowed to make the former a much less significant part of our lives.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can still recognise that plants are alive, and there's the interesting idea that they have abilities such as communication. But this doesn't mean that the kind of moral consideration we afford them has to be directly comparable with that we afford to other animals.

Avocados were going extinct before people started eating them

https://www.avoseedo.com/how-the-avocado-almost-went-extinct/

Unfortunately, once the megaherbivores died off, avocados lost their main source of distribution. The remaining herbivores did not have large enough digestive tracts to consume and excrete the avocado pit, and dropping seeds at your own roots isn�t a very good survival strategy. At this point, avocados should have gone extinct. Why didn�t they?

....

Avocado trees owe their continued existence to their unusually long lifespan and hungry humans. Central Mexico has avocado trees as old as 400 years of age. Because avocados live so much longer than other fruit trees, they were able to survive until another consumer, this time hungry humans, came along.

The earliest humans in Central and South America quickly came to appreciate the avocado: in particular, the Olmecs and the Mayans. These groups started the first avocado orchards, picking the hardiest and best-tasting avocados to cultivate. Thus the avocado�s journey to worldwide cultivation and consumption began, saving them from a time when the avocado almost went extinct.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 03:15

TychoCelchuuu: Jan 2, 2012; This space for Rent.

VideoGameVet posted:

Avocados were going extinct before people started eating them

https://www.avoseedo.com/how-the-avocado-almost-went-extinct/

Unfortunately, once the megaherbivores died off, avocados lost their main source of distribution. The remaining herbivores did not have large enough digestive tracts to consume and excrete the avocado pit, and dropping seeds at your own roots isn�t a very good survival strategy. At this point, avocados should have gone extinct. Why didn�t they?

....

Avocado trees owe their continued existence to their unusually long lifespan and hungry humans. Central Mexico has avocado trees as old as 400 years of age. Because avocados live so much longer than other fruit trees, they were able to survive until another consumer, this time hungry humans, came along.

The earliest humans in Central and South America quickly came to appreciate the avocado: in particular, the Olmecs and the Mayans. These groups started the first avocado orchards, picking the hardiest and best-tasting avocados to cultivate. Thus the avocado�s journey to worldwide cultivation and consumption began, saving them from a time when the avocado almost went extinct.

This kind of argument with respect to animals is known as "the logic of the larder" and it is taken by many (myself included) to be very unconvincing (and I find it equally unconvincing in the context of plants). For some discussion see:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/duty-and-the-beast/logic-of-the-larder/58B2C0EE30721567EF1DA108340D84CC

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-005-1805-x

http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/salt02.htm

https://philarchive.org/rec/JOHCAN

# ? Dec 20, 2023 06:27

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

TychoCelchuuu posted:

This kind of argument with respect to animals is known as "the logic of the larder" and it is taken by many (myself included) to be very unconvincing (and I find it equally unconvincing in the context of plants). For some discussion see:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/duty-and-the-beast/logic-of-the-larder/58B2C0EE30721567EF1DA108340D84CC

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-005-1805-x

http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-c/salt02.htm

https://philarchive.org/rec/JOHCAN

I don't know if it matters, but I've been vegan for well over a decade. Also, in the case of avocados ... the tree doesn't die when you take the fruit.

But back on topic, meat production is a climate issue more than plants.

# ? Dec 20, 2023 07:29

Fozzy The Bear: Dec 11, 1999; Nothing much, watching the game, drinking a bud

If petroleum is made from old previously-living creatures, does that mean vegans can't buy plastic?

# ? Jan 10, 2024 19:50

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Fozzy The Bear posted:

If petroleum is made from old previously-living creatures, does that mean vegans can't buy plastic?

Animals living today aren�t being harmed for petroleum. Broadly speaking, veganism is about minimizing harm to animals that are currently living

# ? Jan 10, 2024 19:55

Fozzy The Bear: Dec 11, 1999; Nothing much, watching the game, drinking a bud

Kalit posted:

Animals living today aren�t being harmed for petroleum. Broadly speaking, veganism is about minimizing harm to animals that are currently living

So its ok to eat road kill? (common in Alaska to get road kill moose)

# ? Jan 10, 2024 20:36

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Arguably animals today are, in fact, harmed by petroleum to an ever increasing degree.

# ? Jan 10, 2024 20:49

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Fozzy The Bear posted:

So its ok to eat road kill? (common in Alaska to get road kill moose)

You probably won't get a moral argument against eating roadkill from vegans, but you will probably still get the more mainstream "that's gross as gently caress" argument but even moreso.

I know at least one vegan that collects and processes roadkill though, for what its worth.

# ? Jan 10, 2024 21:39

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

steinrokkan posted:

Arguably animals today are, in fact, harmed by petroleum to an ever increasing degree.

I was answering the question within the scope of veganism. Of course petroleum use leads to climate change, but veganism typically focuses on direct harm/murder

# ? Jan 11, 2024 00:01

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

(also, oil comes from plants, not animals, despite what your cartoons might have told you)

# ? Jan 11, 2024 00:13

DrBox: Jul 3, 2004; Sombody call the doctor?

Fozzy The Bear posted:

So its ok to eat road kill? (common in Alaska to get road kill moose)

Not harmful, so no real ethical issue, but not strictly vegan by the Vegan Society definition or most other popular definitions because it's a consumption of animal flesh.

Fozzy The Bear posted:

If petroleum is made from old previously-living creatures, does that mean vegans can't buy plastic?

No, Veganism is concerned with avoiding exploitation of sentient beings. Long dead animals fossilized by geological processes are rocks.

steinrokkan posted:

Arguably animals today are, in fact, harmed by petroleum to an ever increasing degree.

It's true but Veganism is more about avoiding direct exploitation and harm. We cause harm by existing but there is almost no situation where a vegan alternative will be more harmful than animal products. Even in instances like leather you can look into the chrome tanning process and see it's not really this eco-friendly material it's made out to be.

Even if it has shown to be a little worse for the environment on a broader distributed level I'd still be against it though. It would be a bit like arguing for child labor because of the lower CO2 impact. Still not justified to directly exploit children.

# ? Jan 11, 2024 00:18

XboxPants: Jan 30, 2006; Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Fozzy The Bear posted:

If petroleum is made from old previously-living creatures, does that mean vegans can't buy plastic?

It's kind of a non-issue. I've read petroleum mostly comes from plant matter, but as you suggest, it does come from animals as well. But in that case, so does the soil that plants grow from. Even stream water contains planktonic animals like rotifers, and that's not gonna stop a vegan from taking a drink.

That said, I imagine many vegans make an attempt to use alternatives to plastic, or re-use, etc, when they can. I do. There are definitely higher priorities in my life, but I'll do it if it's easy. Like just, instead of throwing away grocery bags, keep them and re-use. Buy metal/glass/wood kitchenware, it's nicer anyway. Etc.

# ? Jan 11, 2024 00:21

ReadyToHuman: Jan 8, 2016

GlyphGryph posted:

You probably won't get a moral argument against eating roadkill from vegans, but you will probably still get the more mainstream "that's gross as gently caress" argument but even moreso.

I know at least one vegan that collects and processes roadkill though, for what its worth.

I'm willing to pivot this to car abolition though.

# ? Mar 23, 2024 12:56

Boris Galerkin: Dec 17, 2011; I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!

I wouldn't eat moose not just because it's meat but also because of CWD. No idea if that's a problem in Alaskan moose but the fact that you don't know you've got it until like 10 years later is enough to scare me the gently caress away.

But I believe latest research has shown that the prions survive in plant matter too so yay everything is great 👍

# ? Mar 23, 2024 13:08

Lager: Mar 9, 2004; Give me the secret to the anti-puppet equation!

Boris Galerkin posted:

I wouldn't eat moose not just because it's meat but also because of CWD. No idea if that's a problem in Alaskan moose but the fact that you don't know you've got it until like 10 years later is enough to scare me the gently caress away.

But I believe latest research has shown that the prions survive in plant matter too so yay everything is great 👍

I don't think there's been any cases of humans contracting CWD though? Has there been updated scientific research on this?

# ? Mar 23, 2024 14:08

Boris Galerkin: Dec 17, 2011; I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!

Lager posted:

I don't think there's been any cases of humans contracting CWD though? Has there been updated scientific research on this?

Here is what the CDC says:

https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/transmission.html

quote:

The CWD prion has been shown to experimentally infect squirrel monkeys, and also laboratory mice that carry some human genes. An additional study begun in 2009 by Canadian and German scientists, which has not yet been published in the scientific literature, is evaluating whether CWD can be transmitted to macaques�a type of monkey that is genetically closer to people than any other animal that has been infected with CWD previously. On July 10, 2017, the scientists presented a summary of the study�s progress (access the recorded presentationExternalexternal icon), in which they showed that CWD was transmitted to monkeys that were fed infected meat (muscle tissue) or brain tissue from CWD-infected deer and elk. Some of the meat came from asymptomatic deer that had CWD (i.e., deer that appeared healthy and had not begun to show signs of the illness yet). Meat from these asymptomatic deer was also able to infect the monkeys with CWD. CWD was also able to spread to macaques that had the infectious material placed directly into their brains.

This study showed different results than a previous study published in the Journal of Virologyexternal icon in 2018, which had not shown successful transmission of CWD to macaques. The reasons for the different experimental results are unknown. To date, there is no strong evidence for the occurrence of CWD in people, and it is not known if people can get infected with CWD prions. Nevertheless, these experimental studies raise the concern that CWD may pose a risk to people and suggest that it is important to prevent human exposures to CWD.

The answer is "we don't know" but if I ate meat, I would probably avoid moose and random game in general, but I don't eat meat so it's a moot point for me. It's still scary as gently caress that I could eat some vegetable that some deer poo poo/spat in some years ago and then in 10 years I've developed some kind of CWD. It's not something that changes my day to day habits, but if I ate meat I would definitely avoid moose/elk just for this reason though, since it's not like moose/elk is extremely common anyway.

# ? Mar 23, 2024 15:25

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Lager posted:

I don't think there's been any cases of humans contracting CWD though? Has there been updated scientific research on this?

It�s basically the same thing as mad cow and that happens. It�s really regionally concentrated, in some places like 1 in 4 deer have it. Other places it�s a absent totally.

# ? Mar 23, 2024 21:32

RichMarinKT: Mar 23, 2024

I've been vegan for a bit now and it's one of the best choices I made. People don't generally tell you this but people who eat meat get haunted by the ghosts of the animals that died. Not fun!

# ? Mar 26, 2024 15:17

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 02:09

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

RichMarinKT posted:

I've been vegan for a bit now and it's one of the best choices I made. People don't generally tell you this but people who eat meat get haunted by the ghosts of the animals that died. Not fun!

Building the largest and most diverse collection of haunting, and perpetually screaming, animal spirits is the whole point. I don�t even like bacon but those ghostly pig eyes staring accusingly, unblinking at me throughout the night nourishes and calms me.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 16:34

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