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My neighbor bought this fairly massive Dodge dually 4x4 and has been having a lot of trouble sourcing parts for it, and is ready to just sell it on to someone with more expertise and/or love for it. It runs and seems to be like 30% restored already, he started with the brakes so he did a bunch of stuff right. Or maybe his PO did. He can't find a VIN, he thinks the mfg tags were removed by the military when it was retired, or maybe just someone dumb doing restoration in the past. His research says the original engine was built in 1940 so he's thinking it's a '40 or '39 for some reason? Anyway, let's get on with some pictures:   Flathead inline 6 gas engine. This is a replacement engine, but he does have the original.       Unrestored transfer case, he says the forums he's consulted online have never seen one with a low and high range transfer case before.  Shifters for transfer case.        This is a manufacturers label for the door, he said the doors are all the same for like a decade or more.  The tag matches on the original rusted out door:  Aftermarket heater/defroster box, truck never came with one originally  Original engine and flywheel, before we started looking at it.  Original engine rebuild tag, the engine number matches the stamping which we'll get to in a minute.   Casting number on the cylinder head:  A less encumbered view of the valve side. note the welded patches at the front, this thing has thrown a rod twice now.  Engine block casting number:  Engine serial number, which appears to be T203-5551 (or 555T). My googling confirms that T203 is a 1940 motor.  Front axle:  Front shock and steering  In summary he's looking for help getting a more accurate date range of manufacture, identifying parts so he can repair/rebuild/inform the next owner, and he also wants help with the value as he doesn't even know where to begin pricing it. Post up any info, questions and/or requests for any other pictures that may help. I can pretty much crawl anywhere in the thing if needed, I just snapped all these yesterday morning. And thanks in advance for any help.
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Sep 13, 2022 21:35
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| # ? May 11, 2024 11:00 |
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Did those come with 4 wheel drive from Dodge? I thought at that time almost all 4x4s were aftermarket modifications. I would assume that almost everything is not original by now. Your neighbor will probably want to work on individual parts. Identify what each piece is, one item at a time. That front axle could even be a conversion; it wasn’t uncommon to take a rear axle and add knuckles to make a front.
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Sep 13, 2022 21:42
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_T-,_V-,_W-Series This might be it.
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Sep 13, 2022 23:47
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edit: I did a little more research and it's actually here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_WC_serieswiki posted:In 1940, Dodge also built 6,472 four-wheel drive 11⁄2-ton trucks, under two U.S. contracts – one awarded to Dodge, and one to Fargo.[8][35][nb 7] The models VF-401 to VF-407 (or engine/tech type T-203 by Dodge – and G-621 by the Army), were a continuation of their experimental pre-war predecessors, the RF-40(-X) and TF-40(-X) (or T-200 / T-201), still riding on a chassis of the same 143 in (3.63 m) wheelbase. Production consisted of just over 6,000 closed cab, open bed cargo trucks, plus just under 400 dump-trucks. I've been digging all day and chatting with people in the know and so far I've learned that the engine in it has a serial number prefix T148 which is a 238 in³ flathead 6 from '48-'49 but the original engine is a T203 which is a military 228 in³ flathead 6 from 1940. Which puts the overall truck date of manufacture at 1940. I've learned the axles are Timken Detroit axles, from a patent number on the rear axle. This patent became active in 1934, so the truck can't be older than that. https://patents.google.com/patent/US1946051A/en From this and the chart in the above wikipedia, googling the bodywork, and the dually I'm confident it's a 1.5 ton VF402 or 405 depending on wheelbase or whatever other factor separates those two. So all that's left to identify really is the transmission and transfer case, so I'm going to go talk to him in the morning and measure wheelbase and take as detailed pictures of the transfer case as I can. More to come. LloydDobler fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 05:28
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I dont know how dodge and the US military records work, but over here with military landrovers you can work out the VIN and full build details from the engine number.. (and then stamp the VIN back onto the chassis or get a proper chassis plate for it so you can register things) Is there an old dodge truck owners club who have a facebook group/forum/phone number on a web page?
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Sep 14, 2022 10:42
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This thing is very rad. Does it run?
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Sep 14, 2022 14:56
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Tomarse posted:I dont know how dodge and the US military records work, but over here with military landrovers you can work out the VIN and full build details from the engine number.. I'm sure there is. And from photos I've seen online, the serial number plate with type and model info would simply be screwed on to the dashboard, if that was the case on this truck someone in the ownership chain took it off and filled the holes, and then lost or threw away the plate. Mr Fish posted:This thing is very rad. Does it run? It does.
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Sep 14, 2022 16:28
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Okay, I'm back with better(?) pictures of the transmission, and some more info. This is as good as I could do without getting dirty because I wasn't dressed to get dirty.  The driveshaft's in the way on this one but you can see the way the drain plug looks.  Closer:   These were the only markings I could easily see without crawling underneath and really getting my face in there, and I'm not sure we'll be able to read them anyway:    Here's the truck as he bought it, he's actually done a shitload of work. The axles are now fully rebuilt and the entire fuel system and brake systems have been replaced. You can see the actual military front sheetmetal with the holes for the brush guard that I was seeing on all the image searches I did. He told me the body was rusted out so he replaced it, and this body has the VIN tag mounting holes in the passenger door jamb where a civilian truck VIN tag would be. The fenders are original to the truck and he did weld in a part of the original dash that had holes for radios and stuff.  It also has this weird fuel filter/heater thing that he's curious if it was factory or an add on. Made by Ensign Carb Co. Patent pending, no other writing on it.   Same with the carburetor that was on it, he was thinking it might have had some cold weather refit or something:  I found this field manual on logistics that sort of contradicts what I found above about the model number. It actually can't be a 402 or 405 model because those had winches run from the PTO and this decidedly did not ever have it.   This also implies that there was a non dump version of the 406 but this really can't be that because it's listed as much heavier than the others. So it's either a 401 or a 404 and I can't find a whiff of information that tells me the difference. Wiki footnote implies that it had to do with order and delivery status, basically a purchasing category maybe. On the plus side, I was PMing with Mr.Fish and he pointed out that the transfer case looked almost identical to a Rockwell 226, but it was just a little thicker and missing the mounting bosses. I kept googling Rockwell transfer cases and found that they bought Timken in the 50's. So I searched Timken transfer cases and found it. Timken T-32, which is now a Meritor T-32 and still available as of 1997 at least. It came as a 1 speed or 2 speed with or without PTO, with front side or back side brake. This one is 2 speed, no PTO, back side brake.  Also if I had read the Wiki more thoroughly it specifically said it used a Timken 2 speed transfer case. So yeah now I'm going to start googling transmission stuff as well as that carb and fuel heater.
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Sep 15, 2022 00:40
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I am almost certain you have a dodge WC transmission. Which variant though…eh.
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Sep 15, 2022 03:13
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You are correct sir. First I found this picture on ebay: It is very nearly identical but not exact, likely a later pattern of the exact same transmission. I started googling this number and couldn't find ANYTHING. cursedshitbox found a New Process 420 (corrected) transmission that looked similar but didn't match, but that led me to start searching New Process, which I realized is the logo on that ebay transmission. That led me to a Dodge WC forum where a guy was rebuilding his transmission with a kit from vintagepowerwagon.com, so I went there and found this:  Which matches this, from what was alleged to be a factory dodge manual.  Then I looked at my photos again and this transmission does have the C35661 number on it, not the same as the one in the picture above. So it appears this transmission has no model number, it's just the "Dodge New Process 4 speed with straight cut gears and casting number C35661". Anyone digs deeper and finds more that'd be great, but we have enough to buy rebuild parts for it so we're pretty much done with power transmission! LloydDobler fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 03:30
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Fo' Twenny not Fo' Thirty fahve! It seems related but definitely a procurer to both. I would love to see a breakdown of the three respective boxes on a table. ...Then run a set of calipers over it all.
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Sep 15, 2022 03:45
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I would love to see a breakdown of the three respective boxes on a table. ...Then run a set of calipers over it all. same man same, I’m familiar with the 420 and 435 but this one is le old ss hell
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Sep 15, 2022 04:47
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Also found the carburetor this morning. It's an Ensign model Cg dual fuel carb for running gasoline or natural gas/LPG. The other thing mounted to the firewall is an Ensign 700 series gas vaporizer/regulator for the LPG. The cool part is that we can date the parts because newer versions of the same carb have the patent number (2186480) on the side, which was applied for in February of 1938 and granted in January of 1940. So this was made during this period, I'd guess it's original to the truck.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:55
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It’s so cool to see a truck with original equipment like that still in place. A+ would steal. I have limited flathead 6 parts but I do have some if you guys need anything.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:49
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I'll let him know but with a fully running engine in the truck, and the complete but rusted original engine, combined with everything else being most likely original, we're probably fine. Also because of this research he's seriously considering keeping it and finishing it now. Like when I told him vintagepowerwagon.com has rebuild kits for the transmission he was like "well I'm gonna give (some local rebuilder) a call!" Here's the carburetor documentation I found:   
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Sep 16, 2022 04:23
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yeah I hope dude keeps it and uses it as intended
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Sep 19, 2022 04:22
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| # ? May 11, 2024 11:00 |
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I was going to say that the carb and evaporator looked similar to the ones in my forklift, but you figured that out. Very cool truck, I'd love to see a video of it running and driving.
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Sep 21, 2022 02:40
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