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Raenir Salazar posted:This isn't even remotely true though? The response to that post was someone calling that opinion a "calm hitler", and I disagreed and said that is it not inherently genocidal to call for war on Israel. That's the point where you enter the conversation, seeming to disagree with what I said. Not to be too rude, but if you frequently have this problem with "dishonest" interpretations of your posts, have you considered the possibility that you're not communicating your ideas clearly? I think that's more likely than lots of different people deliberately misinterpreting you. Raenir Salazar posted:I am observing that such a post is problematic because it overly simplifies I'm not saying that post accurately represents your argument. I'm saying I can see how that poster would have interpreted your argument that way. Which is why it helped when you clarified what you're saying after that. Your argument wasn't clear enough for that poster to understand. Raenir Salazar posted:There is no issue which doesn't have strong feelings about it, whether its on the subject of socialist revolution, electoralism, or ones favourite brand of mayo. There's no rational way of delineating for a politics discussion forum which subjects are okay to disregard the rules and which aren't. People honestly shouldn't be on the internet discussing things, if they aren't willing to entertain the idea that someone might disagree with them on a topic, and maybe this subforum isn't for those people? Because again, we literally just have to point out a different historical genocide, or a different current event, and suddenly the teams swap in terms of when its okay for there to be calm rational discourse; it's incoherent. I'm not arguing that the rules should be ignored, I'm explaining to you why your post got the reaction it did. I just explained to you why "a different historical genocide" is your personal view and not an uncontroversial fact and that's why it's treated differently. Raenir Salazar posted:And also then claim its okay to yell and be hostile at people because "a strong propaganda effort exists"; either you care about the rules in having a proper discussion environment, or you don't and just want the refs to take your side in banishing those people to the shadow realm. I'm not the one asking for moderators to step in on my behalf. Raenir Salazar posted:I dunno and cannot evaluate how valid or in good faith or bad faith those anectdotes you alledge are, but presumably people should be allowed to on a discussion forum to question narratives, sources, etc Yes, and that happens in the I/P thread, by people posting and defending arguments and sources in favor of their viewpoint. The anecdotes I'm mentioning aren't that. They're people posting random garbage off of twitter or just completely unsupported claims, and when people disagree, they just move to a different subject. I'm fine with the thread simply telling them what bad posts they made, and explaining why at a broad level, without necessarily rebutting every single point. Raenir Salazar posted:This doesn't follow. Your opinion here isn't objectively correct and doesn't justify taking the position a nuanced rational discussion is only something that should be reserved for genocides by communist countries, but not for countries that have US involvement My opinion is objectively correct. It is objectively true that the reasons for the Holodomor is not a settled question among historians. That aside, I'm not saying you can't take a nuanced stance on Israel. I'm saying if you do, you should be able to defend why that nuance is justified, and you should expect that people will attack your position. If you don't bother to explain why this complexity is necessary to explain the conflict, people are going to tell you to pack it in, and that's totally fine.
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Mar 16, 2024 18:59
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I'm not sure what this has to do with feedback about D&D anymore, so I'd suggest taking it to PMs if you want to continue.
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Mar 16, 2024 19:03
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Baronash posted:I'm not sure what this has to do with feedback about D&D anymore, so I'd suggest taking it to PMs if you want to continue. My takeaway would be that there seems to be some dispute as to what topics should be allowed to be discussed with "rationality and nuance" and maybe the principle regarding moderating "arguments not positions" might need to be restated or clarified.
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Mar 16, 2024 19:11
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Esran posted:I don't want to get into either Xinjiang or the Holodomor, except to say that even if you firmly believe that both of these are genocides, you need to understand that this is not an uncontroversial viewpoint. That there is a genocide happening in Israel is pretty much only contested by Israel and maybe the US, and I don't think you disagree with it either. Neither do most of the people posting in the I/P thread, but some of the people posting there don't believe that the other two events are genocides. I'm not going to get into Xinjiang because that would be comparing cultural genocide (with murder) to the mass murder and mass displacement genocide happening in Palestine right now. However, you're leaving out some things in your summary of the Holodomor. It is absolutely a settled question that the Holodomor was a MAN-MADE famine, and that Russia stole food and even cookware from Ukraine, causing millions of Ukrainians to starve to death. The Holodomor was a mass slaughter, similar to how what is happening in Palestine right now is a mass slaughter, whether one gets nitpicky about the term "genocide" or not. Victar fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 19:28
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Raenir Salazar posted:My takeaway would be that there seems to be some dispute as to what topics should be allowed to be discussed with "rationality and nuance" and maybe the principle regarding moderating "arguments not positions" might need to be restated or clarified. All topics should be allowed to be discussed with nuance, and the principle regarding arguments not positions is essentially that someone is allowed to be wrong, provided they are arguing honestly and that their wrongness has not already been addressed. Victar posted:I'm not going to get into Xinjiang because that would be comparing cultural genocide (with some murder) to the mass murder and mass displacement genocide happening in Palestine right now. This is also not relevant to D&D moderation in any way that is obvious to me.
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Mar 16, 2024 19:28
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Koos Group posted:This is also not relevant to D&D moderation in any way that is obvious to me. I guess the only relevance to D&D modding is that it's extremely frustrating to deal with shifting definitions, especially when the definition of "genocide" gets shifted around. The I/P thread appears to have the consensus that Palestinian suffering prior to October 7th qualifies as genocide even though the Palestinian population was increasing. I agree with this consensus and I was under the impression that Esran agreed too, based on their I/P posts. (And yes, this is something that only someone who regularly reads the I/P thread would know.) If Palestinian suffering prior to October 7th is defined as genocide then the Holodomor (millions starved to death through a man-made famine and stealing food) fits the definition. If the Holodomor doesn't fit a nitpicky textbook definition of genocide, then Palestinian suffering prior to October 7th also doesn't fit the nitpicky textbook definition of genocide. So claiming that it's "not uncontroversial" to call the Holodomor a genocide, given the current consensus in the I/P thread is... I don't know how to put it into words. I want to assume good faith, like D&D rules say, or possibly ignorance of basic Holodomor information available on Wikipedia. As you point out, my reaction to the cognitive dissonance resulted in a post that doesn't have anything directly to do with D&D moderation... but what is the appropriate response here? Just leave it alone? Report it? Esran's post didn't seem reportable to me. Shifting definitions around is against D&D rules, but it could have come from ignorance of the Holodomor. Victar fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 19:55
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Hi, personal anecdote isn't statistics, and I'm not going to pretend that I ever was a big D&D poster, but I definitely read it a lot less too nowadays. I don't think it has anything to do with moderation, because I used to post a bit on C-SPAM too. In general I've just sort of become much less interested in politics and current events in my daily life, and have stopped participating in threads online, here and elsewhere, as well as consuming much less news. I speculate that, if the "average" lurker/seldomposter is similar to me, that might be another explanation for the steady decline in participation in D&D over time. A lot of us just simply aren't interested anymore, or are actively turning off that side in order to preserve our mental health and well-being.
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Mar 16, 2024 20:02
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My assumption as to what Koos wants us to do, please correct me if I'm wrong; is to generally not report that someone seems to have a contradictory position or hypocritical stance on a specific topic, but to only report a particular post, if and when they inevitable break the rules trying to defend that contradictory position in the course of reasoned discussion. And only if when that contradiction comes up, and if it does so in a natural and relevant way to that discussion; i.e no digging up a post where they contradict themselves just to debate the contradiction.
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Mar 16, 2024 20:04
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Victar posted:I guess the only relevance to D&D modding is that it's extremely frustrating to deal with shifting definitions, especially when the definition of "genocide" gets shifted around. I caution against relying on Wikipedia for European history as there are a lot of bad actors and poor sourcing: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/25785648.2023.2168939 One of most prominent Wikipedians mentioned in that article is also a top contributor to the Holodomor page. It seems they have largely stepped down in response to the media attention (or maybe they started a new account).
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Mar 16, 2024 20:12
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Add a rule outlawing use of the semicolon
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Mar 16, 2024 20:13
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Victar posted:I guess the only relevance to D&D modding is that it's extremely frustrating to deal with shifting definitions, especially when the definition of "genocide" gets shifted around. Shifting definitions is against D&D rule I.A.4 (use precise language), and has been punished before. Victar posted:The I/P thread appears to have the consensus that Palestinian suffering prior to October 7th qualifies as genocide even though the Palestinian population was increasing. I agree with this consensus and I was under the impression that Esran agreed too, based on their I/P posts. (And yes, this is something that only someone who regularly reads the I/P thread would know.) Whether Israel is/was conducting a genocide (or some other crime such as ethnic cleansing or cultural genocide) remains in dispute among scholars, and the same is true regarding whether the Holodomor was a genocide. One may take the position that either one is or is not. This is not a violation of D&D's precise language rule. If someone posts their particular definition of genocide, and you raise the objection that this excludes acts that should be considered genocide, that is also legitimate argumentation. Raenir Salazar posted:My assumption as to what Koos wants us to do, please correct me if I'm wrong; is to generally not report that someone seems to have a contradictory position or hypocritical stance on a specific topic, but to only report a particular post, if and when they inevitable break the rules trying to defend that contradictory position in the course of reasoned discussion. Yes.
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Mar 16, 2024 20:34
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I don't want to argue the merits of calling the Holodomor a genocide, especially not in this thread, but I feel the need to respond when it seems like you're directly accusing me of... something. What I claimed is that whether the Holodomor should be classified as a genocide (i.e. it was intentional) is not a settled question among historians. To keep this very short and avoid making GBS threads up the thread, I'll provide two links you can use to verify that this debate exists among scholars (and not in the way neonazis like to claim there's a "debate" about the Holocaust): https://holodomor.ca/resource/was-the-holodomor-a-genocide/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question (this is a bad source, but a fine index of real sources) Which view you agree with is immaterial, all I claimed was that this question isn't considered settled in the same way e.g. the Holocaust is among historians. I think I have supported this claim, and I don't think I'm "shifting definitions".
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Mar 16, 2024 20:38
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You have to get the israel/paelstine thread back under control, or at the very least keep discussions about the palestinean genocide from speciously migrating into denying other genocides, like the chinese genocide of the Uyghur peoples. I am aware of the reasons why the forum wants to remain didactically open to genocide deniers and their arguments, so I'm not going to pretend that it's not going to continue as a regularly inhuman feature of "the discourse" but the absolute least you must do out of al the things that are going off wrong is to strongly quarantine those "discussions" further.
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Mar 17, 2024 02:06
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The last two pages have shown me that anyone who is trying to argue if something is technically a genocide should be forumbanned, regardless of the genocide There's an actual definition, this isn't hard
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Mar 17, 2024 03:39
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Lib and let die posted:the shadowy DV gangstalking crowd wait is this a shadowy crowd that is gangstalking dv, or a crowd organized by dv to do gangstalking idk man. I don't think DV has a posse
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Mar 17, 2024 05:35
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RBA Starblade posted:The last two pages have shown me that anyone who is trying to argue if something is technically a genocide should be forumbanned, regardless of the genocide The actual definition (from the UN convention) requires intentionality, which is what the scholars are arguing over, as I explicitly said. I don't think using the commonly agreed definition of a word, and pointing out that scholarly debate exists merits a forumban.
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Mar 17, 2024 10:38
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Senate Cum Dump posted:wait is this a shadowy crowd that is gangstalking dv, or a crowd organized by dv to do gangstalking
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Mar 17, 2024 16:31
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah this is why posting in the I/P thread is dangerous and exhausting, it doesn't matter what you say really, even trying to understand the basics of what's happening sometimes will get you labeled a genocide supporter, by the same people spend their time defending the Russian and Chinese genocides. You end up spending so much time trying to correct people imagining poo poo you are saying that you get off on a tangent and never discuss the original point, which probably is their goal to derail the "bad thread"  Like, I get these are hot topics but the point of the sub-forum is to debate and discuss. Instead, it's just crazy and still used as a peanut gallery in C-SPAM. Granted, I still read and still feel like I learn from a lot from these discussions but the level of hostility is too high. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 16:38
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FirstnameLastname posted:i think he means "the segment of d&d that thinks that stuff is happening" Look DV has his issues. He doesn’t like it when ways of thinking differ from his own radically critique what he has to say. But it’s not okay to gaslight him or the forum. It’s also not unique to him or D&D, anyway. There are other folks that have stopped posting on SA because of similar things happening to them. It’s not okay and you shouldn’t pretend like it isn’t a thing that happens.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:11
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People disagreeing and thinking you're stupid is not harassment and it devalues legitimate claims in instances of actual harassment to pretend otherwise.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:25
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Here’s a question did you (FNLN) even know? I mean my assumption is no.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:32
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I think this would be a really good time for prompt moderation to jump in before this whole thing degenerates even more. Might I suggest just asking people to post their closing statements?
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Mar 17, 2024 17:36
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ram dass in hell posted:People disagreeing and thinking you're stupid is not harassment and it devalues legitimate claims in instances of actual harassment to pretend otherwise. I just recently picked a pretty public fight with DV about the religious critique of democracy as a civic religion. I’d call it pretty heated. That’s a different thing than what’s going on. There is an active mock thread of DV right now. That’s not really okay.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:38
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WarpedLichen posted:I think this would be a really good time for prompt moderation to jump in before this whole thing degenerates even more. If we can’t talk about things that are actually happening publicly we are cowards.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:39
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I just recently picked a pretty public fight with DV about the religious critique of democracy as a civic religion. I’d call it pretty heated. I don't know what thread you mean. I suspect you might be talking about the media literacy thread on a different subforum, but that doesn't actually fit your description.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:48
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mawarannahr posted:but that doesn't actually fit your description. The syq stuff being mocked is DV, from his media literacy thread.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:52
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The syq stuff being mocked is DV, from his media literacy thread. Most of the posts in that thread are not that though, including the op. I don't think emptyquotes of tweets of videos and pictures of John Kirby really count. There are more "syqs" of other people.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:54
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mawarannahr posted:Most of the posts in that thread are not that though, including the op. I don't think emptyquotes of tweets of videos and pictures of John Kirby really count. There are more "syqs" of other people. "media cliteracy lol" "This is harassment and gaslighting!"
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Mar 17, 2024 18:14
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WarpedLichen posted:I think this would be a really good time for prompt moderation to jump in before this whole thing degenerates even more. Ban my posting enemies. See them driven before me. Hear the lamentations of their women.
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Mar 17, 2024 19:36
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WarpedLichen posted:I think this would be a really good time for prompt moderation to jump in before this whole thing degenerates even more. Yes, I think it would be best to close here. Thank you everyone for your feedback. I'll see about getting another mod and looking into ways to increase proactive moderation and report clearing.
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Mar 17, 2024 21:19
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