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Lafarga posted:Next you're going to ask us why the Baba Yaga rides around on a giant mortar & pestle. I don't think you are properly into the spirit of Crazy Russian Magic People. Not to mention vampires that must obsessively swallow any animal put in front of them.
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Feb 20, 2007 07:24
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The Werle posted:This reenforces my guess about Redcloak, he's getting awfully emotionally invested in this. Woo! More Teevo, I love that little guy, so expressive. I think Rich is just fleshing out Redcloak now though, since before he was just another minion at the end of the day really. Now he's finally doing poo poo on his own. I don't think he'll die. Or at least, I don't want him to die.
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Feb 20, 2007 07:33
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Gassire posted:Not to mention vampires that must obsessively swallow any animal put in front of them. That's still better than those poor OCD Chinese vampires.
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Feb 20, 2007 08:19
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Backdoor Blanche posted:I love how fleshed out all the characters are in this. They're great. I wish the NPCs I encounter and create were this well thought through. Well, technically they're all NPCs.
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Feb 20, 2007 08:58
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I don't really think Redcloak is being fleshed out at all, he's still just straight goblin to wacky lich. I don't think he'll die.
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Feb 20, 2007 09:05
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Well given more screen time, and a slight bit more of a visible personality then.
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Feb 20, 2007 09:33
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I think Redcloak could surprise us. Especially since I'm sure he has ulterior motive. He's a cleric, or at least has levels in cleric since he carries a holy symbol (which doubles as Xykon's phylactery). If he's a cleric, it means he serves his deity in some manner. So, who's to say that Redcloak isn't actually playing the more powerful Xykon at the behest of his dark god?
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Feb 20, 2007 10:37
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Everyone posted:Redcloak. I'm sorry, but I can't ignore the fact that Redcloak here trails off on a new tangent the moment he mentions Xykon with a "bullseye" on. I anticipate a coup d'etat, or putting Xykon in harm's way at the very least. I mean, by now he's convinced he's a better tactician, he's in charge of every hobgoblin under the sun, he's privy to all the information, and he's got the phylactery. So why not choose to up himself to #1?
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Feb 20, 2007 10:41
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Nah, I can't see redcloak taking over from Xykon... My prediction is he'll let Xykon walk up to the walls and start blasting away, there'll be a comedy moment where Xykon realises he's the only one there shortly before getting exploded by a catapult rock, and Redcloak will lead the hobgoblins in a surprise attack while the defenders are distracted. Xykon will be back in the phylactery and kind of mad, but when he sees that they've won thanks to the strategy he won't kill redcloak straight out. Of course, maybe that's just what Burlew wants us to think.  Either that or Xykon reveals some cunning, brilliant plan that wins the whole thing at the last second. His character's gone kind of the 'incompetent villain' route but it's hard to tell if he's actually incompetent or if he's just faking it.
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Feb 20, 2007 10:48
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Rose wood posted:Either that or Xykon reveals some cunning, brilliant plan that wins the whole thing at the last second. His character's gone kind of the 'incompetent villain' route but it's hard to tell if he's actually incompetent or if he's just faking it. I wouldn't say he's incompetent, just extremely confident. He feels no need to plan anything since he assumes he'll just blow up anything that gets in his way.
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Feb 20, 2007 15:44
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I would certainly have to agree with Vomax. 'course, that was also how Redcloak handled the initial Hobgoblin situation.
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Feb 20, 2007 15:47
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Rose wood posted:Either that or Xykon reveals some cunning, brilliant plan that wins the whole thing at the last second. His character's gone kind of the 'incompetent villain' route but it's hard to tell if he's actually incompetent or if he's just faking it. He's just really really really pushing the "Chaotic" part of "Chaotic Evil." Also, humor comic.
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Feb 20, 2007 15:49
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My guess is just that Xykon gave Redcloak the idea to use some kind of feint or decoy. I mean, all you need to make a body double for Xykon is to raise a skeleton and put it in a robe.
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Feb 20, 2007 15:49
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Battlestar Ferrinus posted:My guess is just that Xykon gave Redcloak the idea to use some kind of feint or decoy. I mean, all you need to make a body double for Xykon is to raise a skeleton and put it in a robe. Redcloak's looking too devious for something like that.
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Feb 20, 2007 16:14
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I just figured he was going to rush the walls with exploding hobgoblins. the castle is breached and, hey, dead hobgoblins.
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Feb 20, 2007 18:02
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I'm going to lay down some harsh truth here, but its pretty much inescapable. Redcloak is a goblin. He will never overcome Xykon to be the evil overlord, he'll never upgrade from lackey. D&D's glass ceiling is both firm and opaque, nothing gets through. Simply put, goblins are low level enemies.
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Feb 20, 2007 18:40
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Rincewind posted:Redcloak's looking too devious for something like that. He's just got a generic >:D scheming face on, I don't see how you can say he looks "too devious". I mean, Xykon posed a situation that Redcloak realized would immediately lead to a hugeamount of enemy fire being directed at the lich, and this suddenly gave Redcloak an idea. A decoy is obvious. I can't really see Redcloak betraying Xykon, because all in all they seem pretty friendly and honestly they're way more entertaining working together than apart. If Redcloak hated Xykon enough to destroy him he'd have simply smashed the lich's phylactery long ago.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:02
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Battlestar Ferrinus posted:He's just got a generic >:D scheming face on, I don't see how you can say he looks "too devious". Easier, why bother with a decoy? What does it matter if Xykon gets blown up, the gate ritual takes a week anyway, he'll have plenty of time to regenerate. Redcloak gets to take the city and justifibly make his boss explode(alongside the tactical advantage this provides). Awesome.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:06
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CoolCab posted:Easier, why bother with a decoy? What does it matter if Xykon gets blown up, the gate ritual takes a week anyway, he'll have plenty of time to regenerate. Redcloak gets to take the city and justifibly make his boss explode(alongside the tactical advantage this provides). Awesome. That would also work, provided whatever rituals Xykon and Redcloak need to do don't need both of their participation from the start. You know what I wish? I wish that Xykon was a wizard, not a sorcerer. This is because "wizard" is a funnier word than "sorcerer" is, and also because being a wizard means that Xykon isn't technically limited to only having a selection of around 30 or 40 spells ever and so can more plausibly cast random obscure stuff for the sake of a joke.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:43
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Battlestar Ferrinus posted:That would also work, provided whatever rituals Xykon and Redcloak need to do don't need both of their participation from the start. How much Xykon is needed for a casting? Can't be that much, just get the skull first and you're covered up to somatic components.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:48
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CoolCab posted:Easier, why bother with a decoy? What does it matter if Xykon gets blown up, the gate ritual takes a week anyway, he'll have plenty of time to regenerate. Redcloak gets to take the city and justifibly make his boss explode(alongside the tactical advantage this provides). Awesome. Exactly, that's what I meant in my first post, that's what I'm expecting. 
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Feb 20, 2007 20:05
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The Werle posted:Simply put, goblins are low level enemies. 3E has no level limits, even on monsters with class levels. There's nothing stopping him from Epic levels purely from a rules perspective. Orcs are low-level enemies too, right, but an Orc that's also a 15/5 fighter/rogue is the sort of bad guy you throw at PCs who think they're too big for their britches. Plus, there's always that classic "Tucker's Kobolds" story.
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Feb 20, 2007 21:02
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Lafarga posted:3E has no level limits, even on monsters with class levels. There's nothing stopping him from Epic levels purely from a rules perspective. Orcs are low-level enemies too, right, but an Orc that's also a 15/5 fighter/rogue is the sort of bad guy you throw at PCs who think they're too big for their britches. I don't get the Tucker's Kobolds story. What prevents PCs from dropping fireballs a ways behind the Kobolds? Or using wands of Magic Missile? Or a Cone of Cold? Fighters shouldn't be afraid of some piddly arrows if they have tower shields, and to get the ones pushing the piles of flaming debris, just fire arrows at the pushers. What exactly makes these guys worse than anything else? I'd like to know, to be able to challenge my PCs.
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Feb 20, 2007 21:14
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Kahrytes posted:What exactly makes these guys worse than anything else? The idea is that you don't give your players a straight-up fight like they're used to. Fireballs expand to fill available space (seriously, look up the volume of a stock D&D fireball one of these days, they're loving immense), you have to see who you're shooting at to fire a bow (much less Magic Missle), and shields only protect against one direction at once. I'm not one of the "evil DM" school, since I don't like killing my players or pissing them off, but I am of the "realistic challenge" school, which means that I would much rather throw a bunch of low-level enemies with a circumstantial advantage after a powerful party than one huge godlike damage sponge. Two dozen professional soldiers in good gear and with good tactics is, as far as I'm concerned, a much more interesting challenge than some supernatural beastie who's only a problem because he has a lot of hit dice, some sort of area-of-effect attack, and an attitude problem. Turn those humans into kobolds and the situation doesn't change much.
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Feb 20, 2007 21:48
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Lafarga posted:I'm not one of the "evil DM" school, since I don't like killing my players or pissing them off, but I am of the "realistic challenge" school, which means that I would much rather throw a bunch of low-level enemies with a circumstantial advantage after a powerful party than one huge godlike damage sponge. Yeah but the sponge is easier to make and play
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Feb 20, 2007 21:50
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High Altitude Hair Stylist posted:Yeah but the sponge is easier to make and play This is true.
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Feb 20, 2007 21:59
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Lafarga posted:The idea is that you don't give your players a straight-up fight like they're used to. Fireballs expand to fill available space (seriously, look up the volume of a stock D&D fireball one of these days, they're loving immense) Not in 3e. I think it just radiates out until it hits something it can't break through. Kinda a shame, since the old way let you do a lot of way more interesting things with it, but it's a LOT easier to deal with.
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Feb 20, 2007 23:14
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The Werle posted:I'm going to lay down some harsh truth here, but its pretty much inescapable. Redcloak fought Miko to a draw. He has at least as many cleric levels as she has paladin levels, if not more. Character race doesn't matter when you have the PC class levels to be a badass. My group learned this from a group of kobold monks.
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Feb 20, 2007 23:36
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Zereth posted:Not in 3e. I think it just radiates out until it hits something it can't break through. Kinda a shame, since the old way let you do a lot of way more interesting things with it, but it's a LOT easier to deal with. Yeah, I just checked. A 3E fireball is just a simple 20' radius. But a "first edition" (yes I have an original PB hanging around yes I'm a dork) fireball... in typical Gygax language: "The burst of a the fireball does not expend a considerable amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet.]" Back in the day, it was often amusing to watch magic-users nuke their own parties by setting off fireballs in enclosed areas. There's an offically-published adventure in some old Dungeon issue (god I'm decrepid) that involves an optional "you done hosed up now" fight against about 500 "level 0" cultists inside an underground temple, and it includes a sidebar about "what to do if one of your magic-users is crazy enough to cast fireball in here". Fun times, when you're 15.
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Feb 21, 2007 00:42
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CoolCab posted:Easier, why bother with a decoy? What does it matter if Xykon gets blown up, the gate ritual takes a week anyway, he'll have plenty of time to regenerate. Redcloak gets to take the city and justifibly make his boss explode(alongside the tactical advantage this provides). Awesome. But he can't let Xykon get fragged at the start of the battle! One of his Meteor Swarms takes out like 70 of the enemy low-level punks. Redcloak would be a fool to throw away the firepower edge his boss provides even for a big distraction. And you all know The Werle is right. Goblins is bitches and that's all there is to it.
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Feb 21, 2007 06:04
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IMJack posted:Goblin warriors are low level enemies, sure. SuperKlaus posted:And you all know The Werle is right. Goblins is bitches and that's all there is to it. 
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Feb 21, 2007 06:07
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SuperKlaus posted:But he can't let Xykon get fragged at the start of the battle! One of his Meteor Swarms takes out like 70 of the enemy low-level punks. Redcloak would be a fool to throw away the firepower edge his boss provides even for a big distraction. Xykon never seems to actually do anything in a fight when he has the option to send wave after wave of his own men into the fray, that's central to the villiany credo. Plus it could be risky to let him unload the heavy artillery considering what happens if some friendly fire hits the gate.
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Feb 21, 2007 06:09
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IMJack posted:Redcloak fought Miko to a draw. He has at least as many cleric levels as she has paladin levels, if not more. I thought that near the end, Miko gained an upper hand, and just as she was about to go Smite Evil on him, Xykon put her in the force cage spell or whatever it's called because I'm too lazy to look it up.
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Feb 21, 2007 10:20
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the_steve posted:I thought that near the end, Miko gained an upper hand, and just as she was about to go Smite Evil on him, Xykon put her in the force cage spell or whatever it's called because I'm too lazy to look it up. Xykon's Moderatetly Escapeable Forcecage I believe it was. She beat him, but was pretty beat up, and had to heal herself before that even. Not to mention if she had rolled lower on some of those spells she would have been killed outright. She's no longer a paladin, so he'd waste her pretty easily if they have a second match before she becomes a blackguard or atones.
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Feb 21, 2007 13:33
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CoolCab posted:Xykon never seems to actually do anything in a fight when he has the option to send wave after wave of his own men into the fray, that's central to the villiany credo. Plus it could be risky to let him unload the heavy artillery considering what happens if some friendly fire hits the gate. Maybe evocation is one of his prohibited schools?
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Feb 21, 2007 17:12
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High Altitude Hair Stylist posted:Maybe evocation is one of his prohibited schools? Sorcerers don't choose prohibited schools. Also, he's fried his own minions with lightning on more than one occasion.
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Feb 21, 2007 17:18
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Battlestar Ferrinus posted:Sorcerers don't choose prohibited schools. Also, he's fried his own minions with lightning on more than one occasion. Ah, I figured he was a wizard (and it's been a while since I read the archives).
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Feb 21, 2007 17:23
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Xykon is shown specifically casting Meteor Swarm in one of the bonus strips in the second book, so even if Rich did give a drat about limiting sorcerer spells known it would be there. An' it can take out a ton of loser human soldiers without threatening the gate because the gate is so far from the city walls.
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Feb 22, 2007 00:28
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the_steve posted:I thought that near the end, Miko gained an upper hand, and just as she was about to go Smite Evil on him, Xykon put her in the force cage spell or whatever it's called because I'm too lazy to look it up. The conversation between the Redcloak and Xykon afterwards tends to imply that he was basically throwing the fight to make sure she got trapped.
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Feb 22, 2007 00:45
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SuperKlaus posted:Xykon is shown specifically casting Meteor Swarm in one of the bonus strips in the second book, so even if Rich did give a drat about limiting sorcerer spells known it would be there. An' it can take out a ton of loser human soldiers without threatening the gate because the gate is so far from the city walls. There are bonus strips in the second book?! What about the first?
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Feb 22, 2007 02:41
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