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The symbol of insanity is at best a loophole and munchkin exploit and at worst illegal. Think about game/story balance. A single level 8 spell wiping out 30-40 leveled characters? Why doesn't Xykon just throw a few rubber balls in the army below? Why doesn't he use it for every encounter? Total crap. However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. Seriously, nothing has gone wrong for him since the dungeon. No challenges and no real conflict. Now, I dread that the only way the OOTS will beat him is through a deus ex machina or some lame loophole in the rules or both. There isn't going to be a 'real' battle between Xykon and ANYONE since he's so drat powerful. He's basically Sauron and Sauron shouldn't be out on the frontlines. He should back in his lair, plotting evil.
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May 5, 2007 17:22
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There was never any real question if the paladins could beat him. They are not PCs, therefore, they won't. PLOT POWER.
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May 5, 2007 17:25
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clockworkjoe posted:However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. Seriously, nothing has gone wrong for him since the dungeon. No challenges and no real conflict. Now, I dread that the only way the OOTS will beat him is through a deus ex machina or some lame loophole in the rules or both. There isn't going to be a 'real' battle between Xykon and ANYONE since he's so drat powerful. Symbol of Insanity stuff aside, I can't believe you're actually bitching about a proactive villain. Sauron wasn't interesting at all, shadowy plotter, big whoop. Xykon is a much more interesting (and funny) villain. The strip isn't going to end anytime soon, I believe there's two more Gates to deal with, and the Linear Guild and Miko are about to break loose. Not to mention Roy's inevitable resurrection. There's lots more conflicts coming up for the Order, plenty to get them up to Xykon's level and provide a satisfactory final conflict.
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May 5, 2007 17:25
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clockworkjoe posted:The symbol of insanity is at best a loophole and munchkin exploit and at worst illegal. Think about game/story balance. A single level 8 spell wiping out 30-40 leveled characters? Why doesn't Xykon just throw a few rubber balls in the army below? Why doesn't he use it for every encounter? Total crap. They were leveled characters, but they weren't high leveled characters. It was basically a way to make a bunch of level 9-10 dudes repeat their will saves like three times each. Also, do you honestly think he needed the Symbol of Pain gimmick to beat them? Xykon is an epic level sorcerer. Like he said, he could have just chosen to rain utter destruction down on everyone and more or less come out unscathed. He actually took a lot of damage and fizzled a ninth-level spell slot as is! quote:However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. "Mary Sue" characters are hyper-confident self-insertion protagonist characters specifically designed to outclass all the "normal" characters at everything. Xykon doesn't do this; he's just a realistically high-level sorcerer, and an antagonist to boot. He could actually stand to be a lot more careful, since he's taken quite a lot of damage over the course of the battle that could have been avoided. quote:He's basically Sauron and Sauron shouldn't be out on the frontlines. He should back in his lair, plotting evil. That never makes any sense. If you're an all-powerful archmage, why do you sit back and plot ways for your incompetent minions to win important battles for you instead of using your world-shaking magic to do it yourself? This gate is integral to Xykon's plan to rule the wold, why wouldn't he actually help capture it personally?
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May 5, 2007 17:35
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He's a frikkin level 20 lich in a world filled with PCs at level 13 and NPCs at sub level 10. Not only that you're apparently forgetting the entire point of D&D is to level to fight bigger and badder monsters. Xykon is entirely right, the OOTS isn't much of a challenge for him and they should be out trying to level up instead of going after someone who can TPK them without much effort. Hey newsflash, the Order can get stronger still, it doesn't require any fancy  just normal xp gaining. And finally, please don't misuse the term Mary sue, it just makes you look stupid. A mary sue is a self insertion character, Xykon is a campaign end boss. Stop bitching that he's powerful.
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May 5, 2007 17:35
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Brannock posted:The Epic Level Handbook was one of the most broken books WotC ever released and I really hope Burlew doesn't start including Epic stuff in OotS. Well the ELH is a 3.0 book, so it's fairly out-of-date, the 3.5 DMG updated the really important stuff. clockworkjoe posted:However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. Seriously, nothing has gone wrong for him since the dungeon. No challenges and no real conflict. Now, I dread that the only way the OOTS will beat him is through a deus ex machina or some lame loophole in the rules or both. There isn't going to be a 'real' battle between Xykon and ANYONE since he's so drat powerful. If this were an actual game I'd be more inclined to agree with you. However, since this is a webcomic with a direct and intended narrative, I don't think it's valid. He will be defeated eventually, because that's how all fantasy stories work. When will he be defeated? Either when Burlew decides he's done with the comic or comes up with a villain that's more entertaining. More than that, Xykon is suppposed to be a global threat, if he could have been taken down by a room full of low-level Paladins, well then he wouldn't be much of a threat. And if he had been taken out by a group of NPCs that is both lovely storytelling and lovely DMing.
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May 5, 2007 17:47
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It's not just his spellcasting power. He just conveniently found a huge hobgoblin army and always knew where to go and what to do. Hell, he just happened to gain a new minion who healed him all of the damage Roy inflicted. Just pure luck. He also just didn't beat the paladins as I knew he would, it's how he walked over all of them with barely a scratch on him. I just think Xykon is sucking any tension or suspense out of the story. There's no way the good guys can win without a deus ex machina.
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May 5, 2007 17:47
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clockworkjoe posted:There's no way the good guys can win without a deus ex machina. If they can manage to destroy the gate (which they can conceivable do without relying on Deus Ex) and then get out safely (again, no Deus Ex required) Xyklon has no reason to stick around and they've effectively beaten him while allowing the story to progress. He doesn't need to be destroyed and even if the city's a ruin and everyone's dead it's still a victory in the larger scheme of things. Then Roy can get revived (or not, whatever), the fabric of reality gets weakened more but still holds, and the order can keep adventuring for a few more levels until the next gate. evilsake fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 17:51
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sakesniper posted:If they can manage to destroy the gate (which they can conceivable do without relying on Deus Ex) and then get out safely (again, no Deus Ex required) Xyklon has no reason to stick around and they've effectively beaten him while allowing the story to progress. He doesn't need to be destroyed and even if the city's a ruin and everyone's dead it's still a victory in the larger scheme of things. How can they destroy the gate when Xykon is right next to it now? Even if they did that, how would they survive Xykon's wrath? V and Durkon are probably low on spells and they were last seen on the front walls of the castle. Besides, they know all the paladins are in the throne room. They wouldn't necessarily know they had all been wiped out that quickly. On another topic, I found some neat fan art on RPG DOT NET http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=324419
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May 5, 2007 17:57
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clockworkjoe posted:How can they destroy the gate when Xykon is right next to it now? Even if they did that, how would they survive Xykon's wrath? Whatever he has to do in there it takes time for him to accomplish, weeks Xyklon said (that's why Redcloak's all "what the hell is wrong with him"). I think there's a bit of a window there for them to figure out they lost and then develop a plan that can accomplish these things. evilsake fucked around with this message at 18:19 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 18:10
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clockworkjoe posted:It's not just his spellcasting power. He just conveniently found a huge hobgoblin army and always knew where to go and what to do. Hell, he just happened to gain a new minion who healed him all of the damage Roy inflicted. Just pure luck. He also just didn't beat the paladins as I knew he would, it's how he walked over all of them with barely a scratch on him. I just think Xykon is sucking any tension or suspense out of the story. There's no way the good guys can win without a deus ex machina. I know this will sound a little like I'm reversing my previous position, but I sort of disagree. I always assumed it was kind of a joke that while the PCs are struggling along doing sidequests, Xykon just sort of coasts along (how he and Redcloak effortlessly take command of the Hobgoblins, the way they kill everything in his old tower without even trying). I just thought that he would have a little more trouble in a room of people specifically classed to be effective against evil. Other than that, Xykon is probably one of the best characters in the comic, and his speech to Roy right before he kills him is definitely proof of that. Its obvious, however, that the monster in the darkness is the most powerful thing in Xykon's army, and I'm wondering if Start of Darkness will shed some light (haha, zing) on what it is. I mean, over-powered? We saw what it did to Miko, it could presumably have taken the entire city by itself.
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May 5, 2007 18:11
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clockworkjoe posted:However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. I regret to inform you of this, but Mary Sue is the new Godwin. You fail.
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May 5, 2007 18:39
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clockworkjoe posted:On another topic, I found some neat fan art on RPG DOT NET http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=324419 This is a really neat find, thanks!
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May 5, 2007 18:55
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clockworkjoe posted:It's not just his spellcasting power. He just conveniently found a huge hobgoblin army and always knew where to go and what to do. Hell, he just happened to gain a new minion who healed him all of the damage Roy inflicted. Just pure luck. He also just didn't beat the paladins as I knew he would, it's how he walked over all of them with barely a scratch on him. I just think Xykon is sucking any tension or suspense out of the story. There's no way the good guys can win without a deus ex machina. Oh man, maybe "Xykon is too strong" is going to be the new "Miko is misunderstood and Roy is a huge jerk who deserves to suffer." If Xykon hadn't gained command of a huge hobgoblin army, he wouldn't be a major threat. The story calls for Xykon to be a major threat, so he gets windfalls like the hogboblin army. Guess what, the PCs have gotten windfalls like Roy's starmetal sword and Elan's custom-made prestige class! Your complaints are silly and I can only assume that you have some sort of emotional investment for paladins or against liches or something.
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May 5, 2007 19:01
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Actually, except for the bouncy ball part, the symbol of insanity was a really good plan. Even with an easy save, the spell's active for 10 minutes per caster level and has a radius of 60 feet. The room's probably not much bigger than that, so the paladins can't escape the radius. If you look at it, the spell's triggered, and effects all things in the radius - even if you're not actively looking at it. Barring that, the spell allows for other special considerations to be the trigger, such as alightnment or class. If Xylon made the trigger a lawful good alignment, you wouldn't even need one person looking at it; just proximity to the paladins and the spell would be active. So that's a will save, every round - which is six seconds - and eventually, you're going to fail one, divine grace or not. Given that Xykon is probably level 20, that's 200 minutes of spelltime . . . Yeah. It's not actually that unrealistic a way of doing things, ignoring the bouncy ball aspect. Closed quarters, huge number of similar enemies. There's really nothing at all wrong with this. Xykon is probably an epic level sorcerer lich. Every last PC can become epic level as well; that's the whole point of D&D games. You kill things, get stronger and kill stronger things. That's how the game is structured. There's no superpower and there's no deus ex machina. The PCs keep fighting, get stronger and eventually kick his rear end. This is a D&D comic. There is no possible way you can complain about the "level up and kill him" tactic in a comic that is based on a game whose whole structure is "level up and kill him." Well okay, you can, but you're an asshat if you do.
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May 5, 2007 19:59
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Ferrinus posted:Complaining about it being "cliched" when a really powerful guy defeats a bunch of weak-to-average guys is silly. You may as well complain about Roy's death being cliched because how many times has the hero died dramatically, huh, guys? Or maybe the entire battle, because wowee, big seige where the good guys are outnumbered, never seen that before I'm not one of these people who rolls their eyes whenver somebody swings a sword or stands on top of a castle or whatever, but there's a point at wich, not only do things start sounding awfully familiar, but the kind of mindset needed to tread that well-worn path is not something I find entertaining. A big part of why I like OOTs is because it doesn't do that stuff, sure it's a quest blah blah, but it's original and creative when and where it matters, most of the time. This bit? Not so much. But as I said, I don't think this is proof that OOTS sucks. For instance, i'm assuming he is not going to follow up his uber-unbeatable villain with the ultimate cliche, the magical plot widget that is the only thing wich can defeat said otherwise unbeatable super-badguy. likewise I don't see Xyklon as a self-insertion character. I give this guy way more credit than that. Ferrinus posted:"Mary Sue" characters are hyper-confident self-insertion protagonist characters specifically designed to outclass all the "normal" characters at everything. Xykon doesn't do this; he's just a realistically high-level sorcerer, and an antagonist to boot. He could actually stand to be a lot more careful, since he's taken quite a lot of damage over the course of the battle that could have been avoided. Of course he can mind control you all to do whatever he wants, he's a Ventrue elder! Of course Elminster can spend a whole adventure loving with you, he's an epic level mage! It's really no excuse, because it's GM fiat that makes that character that powerful. Likewise, when a writer beats his protagonists over the head with a vastly superior foe, it really doesn't matter if he's doing it by some kind of vague doc savage/mary sue fiat or because his sayian power levels are so high. That said I don't think he's a self insertion character, because that suggests a kinda of ego and attachment that I don't think is present. I also usually don't have a problem with Xylkon's power, I really liked the dragon scene because it wasn't just power, but his versatility that was the issue there. It really displayed his outclassedness and his attitude in a really cool and inventive way. I also don't mind that he's flippant and so on, even from a rules-anal pov he's a sorcerer after all, it works perfectly, in fact i'm wondering if that's what gave the writer the idea in part- he's not a super-genuis, he's just really powerful and hey, CHa helps getting allies, too. But his status is becoming an issue, I mean are they really going to go off and "grind com levels lolz" in preperation for fighting him? And why can't he gain power if they do? Because he's the villain? By rights he doesn't even need the snarl, he's the most powerful character on the planet from what we've seen. He obliterates silver dragons and angels and entire orders of paladins, nothing comes even close to stopping him, why doesn't he just wipe every city off the map with epic meteor swarms and call it a day? Ferrinus posted:If Xykon hadn't gained command of a huge hobgoblin army, he wouldn't be a major threat. The story calls for Xykon to be a major threat, so he gets windfalls like the hogboblin army. quote:Your complaints are silly and I can only assume that you have some sort of emotional investment for paladins or against liches or something.  rantmo posted:And if he had been taken out by a group of NPCs that is both lovely storytelling and lovely DMing. Efreet saiid fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 20:07
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Efreet saiid posted:I also usually don't have a problem with Xylkon's power but it is becoming an issue, I mean are they really going to go off and "grind com levels lolz" in preperation for fighting him? And why can't he gain power if they do? Because he's the villain? By rights he doesn't even need the snarl, he's the most powerful character on the planet from what we've seen. He obliterates silver dragons and angels and entire orders of paladins, nothign comes even close to stopping him, Consider that the campaign is roughly only half done at this point. There's still two more Gates and Roy's resurrection (if that even happens) before Xykon goes down. He's not gaining any power because he's already so powerful - it's so easy he's not gaining any XP. If the paladins had given him an actual fight, Xykon would have become even stronger and tougher for the Order to take out. Xykon's said himself that he doesn't want to destroy the world, just to rule it. quote:Actually it would have been loving awesome. I would have loved it if the comic had two panels, one big battle scene with him going to town and quipping about how quickly the battle will be over, and then a small inset with him back in redcloack's medalion telling him that they'll have to resort to plan B. This would have been great.
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May 5, 2007 20:16
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Efreet saiid posted:Maybe we're not the ones with the attachment, mr owns-the-boardgame! Back off, mang. The boardgame is really fun.
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May 5, 2007 20:20
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It does kind of look like they're setting up O'chul or Hinjo to join the Order, though.
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May 5, 2007 20:20
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Wanderer posted:It does kind of look like they're setting up O'chul or Hinjo to join the Order, though. Roy did have that one line where he said that he and O'chul were kindred spirits. Lemme try to dig it up. e: Found it. Finally. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html Brannock fucked around with this message at 20:35 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 20:26
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Brannock posted:Xykon's said himself that he doesn't want to destroy the world, just to rule it. I really think that writing is a bit more like playing an RPG than people realise- good charcters should have a bit of a mind of their own(wich is a comment good writers often make), and a real stake in things, rather than being led through the plot by their nose. I'm not saying OOTS is there, not by a long shot, but he made fun of railroad plots in an earlier strip, and i'd prefer them to remain an object of scorn. BAWRLIN posted:Back off, mang. The boardgame is really fun. 
Efreet saiid fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 20:27
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Wanderer posted:I regret to inform you of this, but Mary Sue is the new Godwin. You fail.  godwin is the new godwin. You're an idiot. You know, I still like OOTS, I think Xykon being so powerful isn't funny or good for the story. Happy Elf makes a good point. Why does he even need Snarl? He could already take over the world.
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May 5, 2007 21:14
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Christ, guys, chill out. Take some comfort in knowing that Xykon couldn't defeat that silver dragon (see Paladin Blues). Or, hey, bitch some more because a minion of his rolled some 20s and saved his butt. Just have fun doing it.
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May 5, 2007 21:37
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clockworkjoe posted:
Yes. Yes, I am. That doesn't mitigate the fact that "Mary Sue" is the most overused, least accurate pseudo-criticism you could've possibly leveled against the strip, or indeed against any creative act in any medium. clockworkjoe posted:You know, I still like OOTS, I think Xykon being so powerful isn't funny or good for the story. Happy Elf makes a good point. Why does he even need Snarl? He could already take over the world. Well, no. He's having a run of extremely good luck at this point in time. In order for him to have gotten this far, he unknowingly set Miko up to sabotage Azure City's defenses from the inside. Without Miko leaping to conclusions and killing the old leader whose name escapes me at this point in time, he would've faced a unified Azure City with at least twice as many troops. It still would've gone well for him, but the defenders wouldn't be doing as poorly as they are. Xykon's also completely failing to strategize at all, which may yet cost him. Further, were he to attack the world as a whole, one assumes he would sooner or later encounter someone who's at least on an even keel with him, or at least an adventuring party with a few levels on the Order. In AD&D 3.5, being a 20th-level sorcerer lich is a big deal, but it's not so big of a deal that you will never encounter an equivalent force.
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May 5, 2007 23:04
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What the hell is this crap about Xykon being a mary sue? Yes, he has to be this powerful because if he isn't by the time the PCs get to the last dungeon they'll each be higher in level than he is. If he's lower in level they'd steamroll him and we'd have some huge rear end anticlimax. Way too many people, on this forum and the giant's own, were saying that Xykon, the BBEG, was incompetent, weak and a retard. Some others were actually rooting for him to win. This comic had him mow down a room full of unique paladins in a humilating manner and then joke about it afterwards. I think the reason so many people hate this strip is because it took a character they previously liked and showed his true colors. Before he was just an absent minded jerk who killed his minions in a casual manner and made some joke of it and we didn't care because hey who cares about goblins.
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May 5, 2007 23:30
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I can sort of see the point. Xykon's been amusingly incompetent for most of the strip so far, and when he did something right, it was handwaved, off-panel, or against offstage ciphers like the dungeon full of good monsters. In the Azure City siege, he's abruptly being written as so overwhelmingly powerful that he can go ahead and be an ADD-riddled idiot and most of the time, it doesn't matter. He's also attacking a bunch of people who we actually care about this time, and that makes a big difference. The funny thing is that Xykon's always been like this, if you look back at the earliest strips. He's always been this powerful; he busts out a Symbol of Pain on Haley and Elan, for example. When he gets defeated, it's at the last second due to a stroke of luck or his own arrogance. In his previous confrontation with the Order, he would have won if not for Haley and his own inability to take Roy seriously.
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May 5, 2007 23:37
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Efreet saiid posted:It's a huge cliche. The knights/paladins who get completly ruined or generally being clueless is a cliche. The uberpowerful badguy is a cliched. The NPC's never being able to even dent the villain is a cliche. Siezing the plot device is a cliche. But...the paladins weren't clueless, Xykon isn't "uberpowerful" (see that fight against a silver dragon), and Xykon was absolutely "dented" severely by those paladins who were able to attack him. All of his actions have been pretty "realistic" given the rules of the gameworld. And there's basically one outcome when a bunch of low-level warrior-type characters fight a high-level wizard type character. quote:Of course he can mind control you all to do whatever he wants, he's a Ventrue elder! Of course Elminster can spend a whole adventure loving with you, he's an epic level mage! Look, it makes sense to take issue with the fact that the villain of Order of the Stick is an epic-level sorcerer, but it doesn't make sense to take issue with the fact that an epic level sorcerer uses his powers in a reasonable way. Xykon's ability to cause wide-scale magical destruction has thus far advanced the plot, so it doesn't make any more sense to say that he's "too powerful" than to say that Vaarsuvius "isn't powerful enough". How powerful are they supposed to be? If you're playing a vampire game that contains a powerful Ventrue elder as an NPC, there needs to be some good reason for why he doesn't just solve his problems by controlling everyone's minds. Otherwise him putting up some neonate's lip without kicking their rear end breaks suspension of disbelief, and he should've simply not been included at all. quote:By rights he doesn't even need the snarl, he's the most powerful character on the planet from what we've seen. He obliterates silver dragons and angels and entire orders of paladins, nothing comes even close to stopping him, why doesn't he just wipe every city off the map with epic meteor swarms and call it a day? Well this is just shameless hyperbole. He obviously doesn't obliterate everything on the planet without any problems, he's gotten the crap beaten out of him twice now and has basically prospered through a combination of sheer nerve, fortunate accumulation of allies, and possession of an extremely smart advisor. He can't just randomly destroy cities or whatever because, well, he just can't - meteor swarm has a radius measured in feet, not in city blocks. quote:Maybe we're not the ones with the attachment, mr owns-the-boardgame! I have an attachment to the comic as a whole but not any particular resolution of a given narrative conflict  quote:Actually it would have been loving awesome. I would have loved it if the comic had two panels, one big battle scene with him going to town and quipping about how quickly the battle will be over, and then a small inset with him back in redcloack's medalion telling him that they'll have to resort to plan B. Oh yeah a "They're not gonna get me on that bicycle!" scene wouldn't have been cliched at all. It's possible to argue that any given resolution to the Xykon/Paladin Swarm fight would have been cliched because most things have been done in some form somewhere. The correct procedure is not to attempt to do whatever has been done the least up to the point in time where you are writing your story, but to attempt to do what would make sense in the context of everything you've written so far and bring the story closer to its conclusion.
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May 5, 2007 23:54
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This thread has taken a turn for 'standard webcomics forum'. Outlandish claims not in any of the strips ever but its HOW I FEEL CAN'T YOU SEEEEEEEEEEE.
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May 6, 2007 00:01
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I've said this before and I'll say it again, Order of the Stick is two things. #1: A comic strip #2: A dungeons and dragons game. #1 takes priority over #2. It seems like some of you expected him to actually roll dice for each and every paladin he drew inside that room and actually base the story on how that turned out. That's just ludicrous. He writes the story and works in things based on D&D rules, he doesn't play a D&D game and write a story around it. Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 00:05 on May 6, 2007 |
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May 6, 2007 00:02
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Also his name is X-Y-K-O-N there is no L in there 
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May 6, 2007 00:10
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Ferrinus posted:But...the paladins weren't clueless, quote:Xykon isn't "uberpowerful" (see that fight against a silver dragon), and Xykon was absolutely "dented" severely by those paladins who were able to attack him. All of his actions have been pretty "realistic" given the rules of the gameworld. And there's basically one outcome when a bunch of low-level warrior-type characters fight a high-level wizard type character. It's the writer's choice to define the situation. He could have made the paladins more powerful if he wanted to, or less. He could have given them gee, a few clerics with heal spells memorised, I mean I can't imagine why you'd want a heal spell ready in a war, right? Against powerful undead? It's not like a must-have or anything. Or how about some magical items, I mean they're the elite guard of a huge and prosperous city. He chose to set the fight up as he did and what he set up was a cliche walkover, pure and simple. quote:Look, it makes sense to take issue with the fact that the villain of Order of the Stick is an epic-level sorcerer, but it doesn't make sense to take issue with the fact that an epic level sorcerer uses his powers in a reasonable way. quote:Xykon's ability to cause wide-scale magical destruction has thus far advanced the plot, so it doesn't make any more sense to say that he's "too powerful" than to say that Vaarsuvius "isn't powerful enough". How powerful are they supposed to be? quote:If you're playing a vampire game that contains a powerful Ventrue elder as an NPC, there needs to be some good reason for why he doesn't just solve his problems by controlling everyone's minds. Otherwise him putting up some neonate's lip without kicking their rear end breaks suspension of disbelief, and he should've simply not been included at all. quote:Well this is just shameless hyperbole. He obviously doesn't obliterate everything on the planet without any problems, he's gotten the crap beaten out of him twice now and has basically prospered through a combination of sheer nerve, fortunate accumulation of allies, and possession of an extremely smart advisor. quote:He can't just randomly destroy cities or whatever because, well, he just can't - meteor swarm has a radius measured in feet, not in city blocks. This is my point. When you have a character like this, who has no limits, it just points the reader directly to the author, and shatters all suspension of disbelief. It's not about a story you're looking in on, it's about watching some guy deciding what happens next. quote:I have an attachment to the comic as a whole but not any particular resolution of a given narrative conflict quote:Oh yeah a "They're not gonna get me on that bicycle!" scene wouldn't have been cliched at all. quote:It's possible to argue that any given resolution to the Xykon/Paladin Swarm fight would have been cliched because most things have been done in some form somewhere. quote:The correct procedure is not to attempt to do whatever has been done the least up to the point in time where you are writing your story, but to attempt to do what would make sense in the context of everything you've written so far and bring the story closer to its conclusion. After all, we already had the lawful stupid paladin who was doomed to fall, the painfully contrived reason why oaths and honor are dumb, the CG guy who was cool and doing the right thing because as we all know, CG is the real good- I mean seriously this part of the plot is reading like something about of an exceptionally bad Forgotten Realms novel, and they're pretty bad on the mean. Go on, read them. Read about the awesome CG characters and the dumb LG characters and the rear end in a top hat paladins and the loving mages and loving mystra, ok actually don't read them whatever you do because they're awful and OOTs should not have common ground with them, because you get to that ground by making some pretty dumb decisions about plot and characterisation. And anyway, as for writing to bring the story to it's conclusion and respecting it's context, this is a guy who by his own admission will alter the plot out of annoyance if somebody predicts it on a message board. I give him a lot of credit but I don't think he has a grand plan that can justify this stuff. Efreet saiid fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 6, 2007 |
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May 6, 2007 00:53
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Efreet saiid posted:They were literally honor-bound to complete ignorance. But everyone is completely ignorant except for the PCs and Xykon. And I guess Shojo and Roy's dad's ghosts and Hinjo? quote:See you go from saying he's not uberpowerful to saying his victory was the only possible outcome. the reality is, the writer chooses the outcome. If Xykon fought a goblin, he wouldn't need to be "uberpowerful" for the outcome to be preordained. All of the paladins in that room were, by the comic's current standards, weak! The Order probably represents the strongest characters there at roughly level 12 or 13 or so. Miko was stronger than any of them individually at, what, 16? Hinjo, the second best paladin, wasn't as powerful a character than Roy. The rest of the sapphire guard, while certainly powerful compared to standard soldiers, weren't more than half of Xykon's level. Of course he beats them - two level ten characters do not equal a twentieth level character, especially when that twentieth level character is a caster. And it's not like any of the clerics were high enough level to cast heal, let alone close enough to use it. In short I think it can be argued successfully that by the facts established in the comic (how strong the paladins in the Sapphire Guard generally are, how strong Xykon is) that Xykon should have won that fight, just like what we know about Miko and Roy suggests that Roy should have been able to hand her rear end to her after she fell. quote:It's not reasonable, symbol spells don't work that way. They cannot be used offensivly. There is totally a weasely rules argument to be made that they can be used in the way that Xykon used them, since he wasn't really thrusting them at someone, although I wouldn't allow his strategy to work in a game I was running. Overall, I'm not bothered because driving them insane like that was a cool and evil thing to do, and it's not like Xykon couldn't have won with a more standard strategy if Rich Burlew cared about cleaving really strictly to the rules for that encounter. quote:You can't have it both ways, do the rules matter of don't they? Becuase if they do, he's way outside of the CR limits and none of the good guys have enough magical loot. And if they don't, as is the case, then it's the writer's call. There's no D&D rule that says "PCs may only encounter enemies whose CR matches their level." quote:Well, maybe the power level could be more balanced, so he simply can't waltz his way over any obstacle, and only be impeded at the contrivance of the writer? To throw your words back at you, everything is impeded at the contrivance of the writer. And again - the word "balanced" sound crazy when it's being said about a story that completely lacks actual player input. What's it even mean? Varsuuvius and Elan aren't really "balanced" - is that a problem? quote:Yes, you're right, he shouldn't be included unless his powers are restrained. OTOH, we have superlich, who is included despite his power not being restrained. They should only be excised from the story if their unrestrained power impedes the advance of the plot rather than facilitates it. From where I'm standing Xykon the twentieth level lich sorcerer has made the strip better, not worse. quote:Isn't he an epic level lich? They can make their own spells. Either way, if he can flatten and entire order of paladins on their home turf, there is no stopping him. Why didn't he let a few of those bouncy balls loose in a market place, crash the economy? I'm sure he'd find that very amusing. Or he could poison all the wells, or start a ghoul plague. Even if he's just limited to meteor swarms he could demolish a city in quick order, flying away to safety after every barrage. He sort of has a ghoul plague, if you haven't noticed. There's a shitload of ghouls in his army! I don't get the rest of your suggestions. Yes, he can do that stuff. So, quite frankly, can Varsuuvius, substituting fireballs for Symbols of Insanity. D&D isn't Exalted - twentieth-level characters can't just cast a spell and finish off a city, they have to apply their powers and resources intelligently...which Xykon is doing. quote:This is my point. When you have a character like this, who has no limits, it just points the reader directly to the author, and shatters all suspension of disbelief. It's not about a story you're looking in on, it's about watching some guy deciding what happens next. More hyperbole! Xykon doesn't have "no limits". He's just really powerful. He's gotten seriously damaged twice now. quote:It's not that they lost, it's how they lost, and who they are. They're the clueless guys that always lose. It's lame. I expect better of him. I think you have your Cliche Detector tuned too strongly, honestly. A bunch of weak guys getting killed by a strong guy isn't automatically the Clueless Guys Who Always Lose, and honestly a powerful evil character taking out a bunch of weaker good characters who want to stop him isn't at all outlandish or stupid. quote:Maybe you aren't familiar with it, in wich case I envy you even more than just about the baordgame, but it's really common. I've never read those books, but I feel really sorry for you now happyelf Again, though, I think you've just become so used to bad writing that you're seeing it wherever you look, like a soldier suddenly having visions of Charlies In The Trees. It's possible for a bad guy to kill a bunch of good guys and have it not be bad writing!
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May 6, 2007 01:30
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I have no knowledge of the game whatsoever, and I saw nothing wrong with the apocalyptic rubber ball. But why would I? The point of the comic was obvious and well-taken. Xykon could crush a room full of anti-evil fighters with brute force, but he's too evil for mere slaughters. He'd rather be frustrating and cruel. But now people are scrutinizing the comic deeply. Why? I have no idea, but I'd like to point out that this comic wasn't meant to be scrutinized. It falls apart completely once it is put to the test. It's packed with (real) cliches, anachronisms, plot holes, and self-acknowledged silliness. Like the game of D&D, it simply isn't coherent or interesting unless we plant our tongues firmly in our cheeks and suspend a mountain of disbelief. For example, when Xykon needed someone to touch Dorukan's gate, why didn't he personally walk around and kill all but one of the party members? With only one survivor (Elan, for example), he could've physically forced the hand of the survivor to touch the gate, thereby fulfilling his diabolical plan. But he didn't. And why not? Why not? If I might speculate, I think the people who are complaining have too much emotional investment. That seems like a strange thing to say--naively, one wonders how emotional investment could be a bad thing--but in a fundamentally comedic story, stepping to close to the page can make you feel frustrated, because fundamentally, even in their most dramatic moments, comedies never make sense. Zooloo fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 6, 2007 |
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May 6, 2007 01:40
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Too bad the paladins didn't have some contingency to deal with the throne room falling to Xykon. If they had hidden a few barrels of gunpowder (this is an oriental setting after all) under the throne and then set it off, it would have probably destroyed both the gate and Xykon. Or perhaps some spell could have accomplished the same.clockworkjoe posted:
clockworkjoe posted:He's basically Sauron and Sauron shouldn't be out on the frontlines. He should back in his lair, plotting evil. 
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May 6, 2007 01:46
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Efreet saiid posted:
A bicycle scene is a much-maligned type of overused comedy scene following this basic format: code:Efreet saiid posted:After all, we already had the lawful stupid paladin who was doomed to fall, the painfully contrived reason why oaths and honor are dumb, the CG guy who was cool and doing the right thing because as we all know, CG is the real good- I mean seriously this part of the plot is reading like something about of an exceptionally bad Forgotten Realms novel, and they're pretty bad on the mean. Go on, read them. Read about the awesome CG characters and the dumb LG characters and the rear end in a top hat paladins and the loving mages and loving mystra, ok actually don't read them whatever you do because they're awful and OOTs should not have common ground with them, because you get to that ground by making some pretty dumb decisions about plot and characterisation. This is just the most ridiculously unjustified comparision. I've never even read one of those horrible books, but I know the type of franchise-based fiction you're talking about and just because some fantasy fiction does something you don't like doesn't mean you get to compare it to the fiction equivalent of alchemical dross. Is there a term for this? Salvatore's Law, maybe?
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May 6, 2007 01:56
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Ok then you rule lawyering sons of bitches, I finally caved and dug out my players handbook. The only questionable way that Xykon used this spell was that it being on a rubber ball wouldn't necessarily be considered a prominent location; being on a rubber ball in a throne room with a gate to a diety killing monstrosity on the other hand... I guess it would depend on your own interpretation of the word. He simply did not use it offensively in a manner that would result in the symbol not being activated. The term offensively, as defined by the spell itself says that you can't force somebody to activate it. Xykon's symbol was activated by looking at it, and he didn't dominate anybody and order them to look at it. In a room full of 40 odd people, quite a number likely looked at the spherical object the vile undead creature just threw in their direction, and I'd imagine with that many people one or two managed to make the spot check and notice what was written on the ball. That is all, lobbing it at them isn't considered an offensive use of the spell as defined by the spell itself. Now, if he set it to be triggered by touching it and threw it at that large group, that would be considered an offensive use of the spell.
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May 6, 2007 03:12
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Factor_VIII posted:Sauron does step out and fight during the siege of Barad-dûr near the end of the Second Age. Yeah but that directly resulted in his complete and total annihilation. I wouldn't say that was his finest moment.
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May 6, 2007 04:14
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Efreet saiid posted:
I thought Roy was LG?
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May 6, 2007 04:29
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Soonmot posted:I thought Roy was LG? Yes, he is. Happyelf is being chaotic crazy. PS: I would play the board game with you happyelf
Jon fucked around with this message at 04:52 on May 6, 2007 |
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May 6, 2007 04:48
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Soonmot posted:I thought Roy was LG?
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May 6, 2007 04:50
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