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deong
Jun 13, 2001

I'll see you in heck!

tehk posted:

Banshee 1.0, it is in alpha but is already amazing and stable. It is designed to work fast with large music collections(unlike the earlier version). Other then that amarok.

Edit: The best thing about banshee 1.0 is filters. I have a 30k+ song library and I can easily filter songs in seconds. Banshee1.0 also starts fast, atleast compared to amarok, rhythmbox, and old Banshee.

There is a PPA for ubuntu, 1click install for suse, etc..
http://banshee-project.org/Releases/0.98.3 <-0.98 = 1.0 alpha
http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2008/03/13/banshee-1-0-alpha-1-released

How does Banshee1.0 compare to Exaile?
I've gone back and forth over different players for a while, I last recall trying Banshee on Ubuntu Dapper, so its been a while. I think I quit using it due to crashing while scanning my library, which sounds like its fixed now.

One of the main reasons for using Exaile, is that even with a media library, you can browse the file system for songs that have not been scanned.
I like to have the ability to play files with them in my media library, for podcasts and such that I'll be deleting after one listen through. Does banshee have a way to browse folders? Or do you have to have the music in your library to listen?

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rugbert
Mar 26, 2003
yea, fuck you

Munkaboo posted:

I've got a very simple iptables question.

Here's the setup for our network:

We've got about 10 computers in the house all going to a switch, and from that switch goes a cat5 to an ubuntu server with webmin in a guy's room that handles NAT firewall duties as well as DNS. Unfortunately our guy doesn't know how to forward ports in webmin.

There are 5 of us in the house that regularly use Xbox live and it takes us ages to play a game of Halo and now we cannot play GTA online due to the "moderate" rating on our firewall.

What's the command to forward all UDP port 88 and TCP/UDP 3074 packets to all devices in our network?

Also, say my local address is 192.x.x.99 and I want to forward port 8080 from the outside to my PC, what would be the command for that?

I've been trying to research it but I have zero experience with iptables, and the tutorials seem somewhat helpful but i want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Would it be something like this: -a INPUT -p tcp --dport 3074 -j ACCEPT ?

Thanks a lot dudes

I always forget my iptables stuff but I think you have to insert the rule and not append it (otherwise it will go after the drop rule and therefore will never get to the one you made) and I think you have to make two rules, one for each protocol.

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

deong posted:

How does Banshee1.0 compare to Exaile?
I've gone back and forth over different players for a while, I last recall trying Banshee on Ubuntu Dapper, so its been a while. I think I quit using it due to crashing while scanning my library, which sounds like its fixed now.

One of the main reasons for using Exaile, is that even with a media library, you can browse the file system for songs that have not been scanned.
I like to have the ability to play files with them in my media library, for podcasts and such that I'll be deleting after one listen through. Does banshee have a way to browse folders? Or do you have to have the music in your library to listen?

You can click file->open location. That will give you the 'open' dialog to play throw away single files. Banshee really is trying to be a GNOME media player, so like rhythmbox they expect you to use totem to play single files.

The cool thing about banshee1.0 is that it is not just a music player. They are making it a media player by adding video support(handled like music). I guess its good for large music video libraries or alot of TV shows.

rugbert
Mar 26, 2003
yea, fuck you

chryst posted:

Tar by itself doesn't compress, and you should get a near 1:1 size.

using the -z switch gives you Gzip compression, and whatever rates go with that.
Using the -j switch gives you Bzip2 compression, which is usually a bit better than Gzip.

If you're backing up to tape and not using z or j, you're probably getting hardware compression, which is dependent on your tape drive.

It's also dependent on what's being backed up. Text compresses significantly, jpegs and mp3's barely at all, since they're already compressed.

Final thing to look at is what your script is doing. If it's running an incremental after a full, then your backup is only going to be a fraction of your full disk size.

Thats what I thought, tar just encapsulates everything. so I took off the -z switch and the back ups are about 5.3 gigs now. Thats still about 4.4 gigs too small.

My backup script is pretty simple and backs up EVERYTHING but a few directories and of course the drive containing the backup.

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

rugbert posted:

Thats what I thought, tar just encapsulates everything. so I took off the -z switch and the back ups are about 5.3 gigs now. Thats still about 4.4 gigs too small.

My backup script is pretty simple and backs up EVERYTHING but a few directories and of course the drive containing the backup.
Run the backup script manually, add -v to the tar command, and send the output to a file in an excluded directory. I'll bet tar is segfaulting or exiting on a filesystem limit or socket file or something stupid like that.

deong
Jun 13, 2001

I'll see you in heck!

tehk posted:

You can click file->open location. That will give you the 'open' dialog to play throw away single files. Banshee really is trying to be a GNOME media player, so like rhythmbox they expect you to use totem to play single files.

The cool thing about banshee1.0 is that it is not just a music player. They are making it a media player by adding video support(handled like music). I guess its good for large music video libraries or alot of TV shows.

Hmm, I think I'll give it another shot. It'll be interesting to add in tv shows and such. Thanks.

Ferg
May 6, 2007

Lipstick Apathy

tehk posted:

Banshee 1.0, it is in alpha but is already amazing and stable. It is designed to work fast with large music collections(unlike the earlier version). Other then that amarok.

Edit: The best thing about banshee 1.0 is filters. I have a 30k+ song library and I can easily filter songs in seconds. Banshee1.0 also starts fast, atleast compared to amarok, rhythmbox, and old Banshee.

There is a PPA for ubuntu, 1click install for suse, etc..
http://banshee-project.org/Releases/0.98.3 <-0.98 = 1.0 alpha
http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2008/03/13/banshee-1-0-alpha-1-released

I've been using this for some time, it really is fantastic. It's still not as fast as Rhythmbox, but Rhythmbox almost looks archaic anymore even with it's recent UI modifications.

Munkaboo
Aug 5, 2002

If you know the words, you can join in too
He's bigger! faster! stronger too!
He's the newest member of the Jags O-Line crew!
Continuing my earlier post, it seems as though it isnt command driven but driven by the "Linux Firewall" in webmin.

Do I enter things in Prerouting, Outgoing packets, or Packets after routing in the NAT Iptable?

I went to Packet Alteration and went to the Input section... but for everything the Default Action is set to Accept, so wouldnt it already be allowing this poo poo?

Munkaboo fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Apr 30, 2008

Munkaboo
Aug 5, 2002

If you know the words, you can join in too
He's bigger! faster! stronger too!
He's the newest member of the Jags O-Line crew!
This is what it looks like.

As I said before I'm trying to forward Xbox Live's ports (UDP 88, TCP/UDP 3074) to all IP's on our network. The 192.168.1.189 is my xbox's IP, which I was trying for shits and giggles but didnt work.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

rugbert
Mar 26, 2003
yea, fuck you

chryst posted:

Run the backup script manually, add -v to the tar command, and send the output to a file in an excluded directory. I'll bet tar is segfaulting or exiting on a filesystem limit or socket file or something stupid like that.

ok its running now but the output is just going to be a list of the files... heres what Im using to manually back up
code:
tar cpf /backupmnt/full/sat/backup.tgz --exclude=/proc --exclude=/lost+found --exclude=/backupmnt --exclude=/mnt --exclude=/media --exclude=/sys / | cat > /backupmnt/backup.log

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

rugbert posted:

ok its running now but the output is just going to be a list of the files... heres what Im using to manually back up
code:
tar cpf /backupmnt/full/sat/backup.tgz --exclude=/proc --exclude=/lost+found --exclude=/backupmnt --exclude=/mnt --exclude=/media --exclude=/sys / | cat > /backupmnt/backup.log

You don't need to pipe to cat. ... --exclude=/sys/ / > /backupmnt/backup.log will fork one less process.

Getting the list of files is good, because you can see what file it choked on, and figure out what's wrong. Alternatively, if it's not choking, you can diff that file against a "find /", and see what tar is missing.

Actually, probably pipe stderr to that as well to catch tar failing, so > /backupmnt/backup.log 2>&1. Or just watch the script to see what happens.

It's also a good idea to exclude /dev and /tmp, since tar can choke on device files and sockets.

Mr. Eric Praline fucked around with this message at 00:04 on May 1, 2008

Peanutmonger
Dec 6, 2002

Munkaboo posted:

This is what it looks like.

As I said before I'm trying to forward Xbox Live's ports (UDP 88, TCP/UDP 3074) to all IP's on our network. The 192.168.1.189 is my xbox's IP, which I was trying for shits and giggles but didnt work.

No, you've got to put the entries into the PREROUTING chain. Basically, the difference with simply opening ports and forwarding ports (what you're trying to do) is that you need to mangle the destination IP rather than simply allow the traffic in. I manage my firewall through scripts, but this should give you the general idea of what you're looking to do:
$IPTABLES -t nat -A PREROUTING -p udp -m udp -d $i_eth0 --dport 7777 -j DNAT --to-destination 192.168.1.4

When a packet comes in and is destined for $i_eth0 (which is my outside interface) on port 7777, the "-j DNAT" option specifies that the destination should be changed to the "--to-destination" field, in this case "192.168.1.4". You mangle the destination to the host you want to forward the port to. As far as my setup is, which is pretty open on the internal side, I don't need any other rules for it to just work. For TCP, you should also only match on SYN packets, since state should take care of the rest of the mangling for any opened connections.

I hope that helps.

Blaster of Justice
Jan 6, 2007

by angerbot

tehk posted:

Banshee 1.0, it is in alpha but is already amazing and stable. It is designed to work fast with large music collections(unlike the earlier version). Other then that amarok.

OK, you made me install Banshee. I'm having a real hard time trying to figure out what it can do for me that Amarok can't do better?

It's not that I dislike Banshee or anything, but so far it hasn't convinced me that Amarok isn't the best media player ever coded.

Test1: Organizing a 227GB MP3 trash directory on an external USB HDD.
Amarok: 8 minutes including album arrangements and cute cover pictures.
Banshee: 22 minutes and things are organized like poo poo.

Bonus points for Amarok: UI isn't ugly as gently caress and the playback quality to my ears is way better than anything else I've tried.

yippee cahier
Mar 28, 2005

Blaster of Justice posted:

OK, you made me install Banshee. I'm having a real hard time trying to figure out what it can do for me that Amarok can't do better?

It's not that I dislike Banshee or anything, but so far it hasn't convinced me that Amarok isn't the best media player ever coded.

Test1: Organizing a 227GB MP3 trash directory on an external USB HDD.
Amarok: 8 minutes including album arrangements and cute cover pictures.
Banshee: 22 minutes and things are organized like poo poo.

Bonus points for Amarok: UI isn't ugly as gently caress and the playback quality to my ears is way better than anything else I've tried.

If mp3s sound better using different applications there is something wrong with your system or your ears. That being said, I gave banshee a shot and it choked on a bunch of files with "mpeg audio header not found". The import folder structure selection has a drop down list list with a few options, but no method of defining my own. It's itunes for linux I guess, but I'm going to need it to be more powerful to ditch a standalone ripper, tagger, player and burner.

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

Blaster of Justice posted:

banshee

What version of banshee did you install? Because if its 0.13.X then yea it sucks. The alpha doesn't have feature parity yet which is why it is not being released(and some bugs).

edit: I have not used banshee or amarok for organizing a folder full of unsorted MP3s tho, I use easytag and a few other tools

tehk fucked around with this message at 16:19 on May 1, 2008

rugbert
Mar 26, 2003
yea, fuck you

chryst posted:

You don't need to pipe to cat. ... --exclude=/sys/ / > /backupmnt/backup.log will fork one less process.

Getting the list of files is good, because you can see what file it choked on, and figure out what's wrong. Alternatively, if it's not choking, you can diff that file against a "find /", and see what tar is missing.

Actually, probably pipe stderr to that as well to catch tar failing, so > /backupmnt/backup.log 2>&1. Or just watch the script to see what happens.

It's also a good idea to exclude /dev and /tmp, since tar can choke on device files and sockets.

the last file in the backup is /sbin/mii-tool. Now really sure what that is.

Blaster of Justice
Jan 6, 2007

by angerbot

tehk posted:

What version of banshee did you install? Because if its 0.13.X then yea it sucks. The alpha doesn't have feature parity yet which is why it is not being released(and some bugs).

edit: I have not used banshee or amarok for organizing a folder full of unsorted MP3s tho, I use easytag and a few other tools

The latest. 0.98.3

The question answered by both of us was "what media player is working flawless and chews up large collections of MP3s in a matter of minutes and works kind of like iTunes". My answer is still Amarok hands down.

I will be watching the development of Banshee though, it might turn out to be interesting.

sund posted:

If mp3s sound better using different applications there is something wrong with your system or your ears.

I hope you're not serious.

Blaster of Justice fucked around with this message at 20:57 on May 1, 2008

Slow is Fast
Dec 25, 2006

I have a linux server setup with web administration pages for webmin, mythtv, soon to be torrents, and all sorts of other applications. I was wondering if it would be possible for me to whip up a start or homepage for my server. A single page that I can access that will have links to all the other pages. I move my server from home to school and what not due to being in college, so having the page being able to update the links to any IP changes would be great. I just want an initial page where I can mash buttons to get to the other admin pages without having to type in the IP each time.

Thanks!

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

Slow is Fast posted:

I have a linux server setup with web administration pages for webmin, mythtv, soon to be torrents, and all sorts of other applications. I was wondering if it would be possible for me to whip up a start or homepage for my server. A single page that I can access that will have links to all the other pages. I move my server from home to school and what not due to being in college, so having the page being able to update the links to any IP changes would be great. I just want an initial page where I can mash buttons to get to the other admin pages without having to type in the IP each time.

Thanks!

Maybe I am a bit lost but putting a index.html page with relative links in your apache root would do what you say?

Slow is Fast
Dec 25, 2006

tehk posted:

Maybe I am a bit lost but putting a index.html page with relative links in your apache root would do what you say?

That sounds like what I want to do. I'm just not sure how to do it. Which directory is the apache directory and how would I hit the html page from a networked computer?

Ferg
May 6, 2007

Lipstick Apathy

Slow is Fast posted:

That sounds like what I want to do. I'm just not sure how to do it. Which directory is the apache directory and how would I hit the html page from a networked computer?

This tends to change from distro to distro. Try reading through /etc/apache/httpd.conf and seeing if you can make sense of where it might be.

Blaster of Justice
Jan 6, 2007

by angerbot

Slow is Fast posted:

That sounds like what I want to do. I'm just not sure how to do it. Which directory is the apache directory and how would I hit the html page from a networked computer?

/var/www/htdocs.

Do you intend to hit it from LAN or WWW?

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

Slow is Fast posted:

That sounds like what I want to do. I'm just not sure how to do it. Which directory is the apache directory and how would I hit the html page from a networked computer?

I think it is /var/www/apache2-default/, and ThePCsIP/somepage.html

edit: I may be wrong as Ferg said root is different on each distro

tehk fucked around with this message at 21:10 on May 1, 2008

Slow is Fast
Dec 25, 2006

I intend to hit it from a LAN. If I could hit it from outside a LAN that would be cool too, but not necessary at this point, I'll poke around in the directories you guys listed. Also, I'm on Ubuntu 8.04 if that counts for anything.

bootleg robot
Dec 8, 2004

Guys, what's the best Dock application for Linux now? I used to use kiba-dock, but couldn't get the menu plugin to work without crashing. Avant Window Navigator seems slow and unresponsive. Are there any other alternatives?

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

bootleg robot posted:

Guys, what's the best Dock application for Linux now? I used to use kiba-dock, but couldn't get the menu plugin to work without crashing. Avant Window Navigator seems slow and unresponsive. Are there any other alternatives?

What version of AWN do you use? Slow and unresponsive seems off base for awn. I honestly think AWN is the best dock on our platform, but I am about as biased as you can get. You can hop on irc some time and one of us in the #awn channel can give you a hand solving the problem.

Other then the two main docks there is engage, gnome-dock(french revival), screenlets dock, and a few others.

ColdPie
Jun 9, 2006

I've got a question about lftp. I'm using it to upload backup files created by Duplicity to my webhost. I set up a cron job to run the backup program and the upload script nightly. My trouble is that lftp insists on overwriting the files on the server, which is a waste of everyone's bandwidth. I'd rather it only upload if the last modified times are different (or only upload if the file doesn't exist, I'm not exactly sure how Duplicity works). Is this possible to do with lftp? If not, is there another way to upload files from a cron job like this?

deong
Jun 13, 2001

I'll see you in heck!

tehk posted:

What version of AWN do you use? Slow and unresponsive seems off base for awn. I honestly think AWN is the best dock on our platform, but I am about as biased as you can get. You can hop on irc some time and one of us in the #awn channel can give you a hand solving the problem.

Other then the two main docks there is engage, gnome-dock(french revival), screenlets dock, and a few others.

I'd agree. The Kiba-Dock seemed to run smoothly enough for me, but they just had too much going on. The AWN dock is the best one I've come across, and I've not had any sort of slow down/sluggishness from it.
I'm using 0.3.1 from :
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/awn-testing/ubuntu hardy main

tehk
Mar 10, 2006

[-4] Flaw: Heart Broken - Tehk is extremely lonely. The Gay Empire's ultimate weapon finds it hard to have time for love.

deong posted:

I'd agree. The Kiba-Dock seemed to run smoothly enough for me, but they just had too much going on. The AWN dock is the best one I've come across, and I've not had any sort of slow down/sluggishness from it.
I'm using 0.3.1 from :
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/awn-testing/ubuntu hardy main

Yea the version in the ubuntu repositories was from the 0.2.x series. 0.3.x has a rewritten base windowlist/launcher applet which solves many issues with both bugs and speed. The applets in the 0.3.x series are better also. Luckily someone wrote preference windows for a few of my applets in 0.3.x, thus saving me the pain.

calandryll
Apr 25, 2003

Ask me where I do my best drinking!



Pillbug
I am currently trying to configure CUPS on a fresh install of Hardy server. I'm trying to have my server act as a print server also. I keep getting a lot of time outs when trying to configure my printers using the web interface. Is there a command line stuff I can use for it?

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

rugbert posted:

the last file in the backup is /sbin/mii-tool. Now really sure what that is.
Well, in that case, I don't know what's causing the backup to be so small. I'm assuming it's just a failing, and there's still a number of possibilities. There might be a bad block on the hard disk where mii-tool is supposed to be. Or there might be a filesystem limit on the size of your backup file.

I was expecting it to choke on something like /dev/sda or something, but I guess not.

mii-tool is a simple binary for checking NIC status info, and probably isn't the cause of trouble.

Pardot
Jul 25, 2001




I've grepped through the man pages with no luck: Is there a flag for tar that will make it not preserve the directory structure when extracting -- dump everything into the current directory?

fatcat
Jun 18, 2004

albert's lookin at you

Pardot posted:

I've grepped through the man pages with no luck: Is there a flag for tar that will make it not preserve the directory structure when extracting -- dump everything into the current directory?

tar -xf <file> I think... Preserving the directory structure is something you have to specify, not the default behavior.

edit: actually, looking at the tar manpage online, and being on a Windows machine at the moment, I'm just going from memory and could be wrong.

fatcat fucked around with this message at 05:29 on May 3, 2008

Alowishus
Jan 8, 2002

My name is Mud

calandryll posted:

I am currently trying to configure CUPS on a fresh install of Hardy server. I'm trying to have my server act as a print server also. I keep getting a lot of time outs when trying to configure my printers using the web interface. Is there a command line stuff I can use for it?
'lpadmin' at the CLI can do pretty much anything the web interface can do. But I'd be concerned about the web timeouts... CUPS' web server is built into the daemon, so if there are web problems I wouldn't be shocked to subsequently see printing problems too. I'd bump up logging and take a look at the error logs to see what's going on...

ynef
Jun 12, 2002

Pardot posted:

I've grepped through the man pages with no luck: Is there a flag for tar that will make it not preserve the directory structure when extracting -- dump everything into the current directory?

I doubt it, since tar wouldn't be able to know if you wanted "foo/filename" or "bar/filename" to be the file called "filename" in your flattened directory. Also, I can't find something like that either in the man page.

But considering that "find" when run without any arguments gives you all files from this point and downward, you can most likely just write a really simple shell script or clever one-liner that takes every file starting from the current location and moves it somewhere else (avoiding the obvious loop that could occur, of course).

calandryll
Apr 25, 2003

Ask me where I do my best drinking!



Pillbug

Alowishus posted:

'lpadmin' at the CLI can do pretty much anything the web interface can do. But I'd be concerned about the web timeouts... CUPS' web server is built into the daemon, so if there are web problems I wouldn't be shocked to subsequently see printing problems too. I'd bump up logging and take a look at the error logs to see what's going on...

Hell it looks like lpadmin doesn't even want to work.

Has anyone ever used ebox, I saw it in Ubuntu's server guide and thought it looked interesting but I think that is causing me problems. I tried to uninstall it but it broke samba and few other things.

sbt
Jan 13, 2006

squonk
Tortured By Flan
I apologize if this has been asked before (it's a very long thread), but has anyone got Flash working in Opera? I found about a bazillion solutions with Google, tried just about all of them, and nothing seems to work.

I'm running Ubuntu 8.04 (32-bit). I installed the flashplugin-nonfree package. It works perfectly in Firefox, but not in Opera.

I edited ~/.opera/pluginpath.ini so Opera won't search for plugins anywhere other than /usr/lib/opera/plugins, where I placed the plugin. I started Opera with the debugplugin option, and it said it found the plugin and everything was dandy, and looking at the plugin options under preferences shows the plugin was found. However, when I view a page that uses Flash, there's just a white box where the Flash content should be.

It's not a huge problem, but it's a loving pain to copy-paste a youtube link to Firefox every time I want to watch a video.

crab avatar
Mar 15, 2006

iŧ Kë3Ł, cħ gøÐ i- <Ecl8

sbt posted:

I apologize if this has been asked before (it's a very long thread), but has anyone got Flash working in Opera?

That's odd as I've been running Opera 9.5 development snapshots with Flash without any hacks since the Ubuntu Gutsy alphas. I've upgraded to Hardy and it works fine. Opera says it's using /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/flashplugin-alternative.so.

I'm Libertarian u ASS
Jan 20, 2007

by Fragmaster
Apparently Opera 9.2x is incompatible with the current regular Ubuntu flash package, either google some hack for it or get 9.50 beta (which works fine for me in Ubuntu but shits itself constantly in Windows :( )

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SynVisions
Jun 29, 2003

chryst posted:

Use eth0:1, not eth0:0. IIRC, eth0:0 is the same interface as eth0, you've simply bound 2 IPs to it, rather than actually creating a new virtual IP.

No, I'm pretty sure this is not true in the way you're thinking. To be pedantic (as you were about subnetting) eth0:x are all virtual interfaces with IPs for the same interface, eth0. In addition there's nothing wrong with eth0:0 in particular. Regardless I tried skipping to eth0:1 and it still uses eth0:1's IP address for traffic.

quote:

And just cause it's bugging me a little:
Here is the relevant info with edited IPs obviously (so ignore subnetting issues or whatever)
Subnetting can't be ignored.

Your subnet is /29, so you've got 6 hosts to work with. Assuming your "real" ips are eth0:x.x.x.194, eth0:0:x.x.x.195, then your range is x.x.x.193-199. So your gateway has to be in that range.

However, this is irrelevant theory, since in your example, it is correct. Though if the last octet of the real IPs are the same, then things should be working as you expect.

What are you talking about? Of course subnetting matters, but not for my question.

edit: Since my question is long since buried, I just want a way to force outgoing traffic through a specific IP. I would think it would use eth0, but in my case it seems to like to use the first virtual interface. I guess I could shuffle the IPs around so that the first virtual is .194 but that's a bit silly and I'd be interested to know if there is a more logical way.

SynVisions fucked around with this message at 23:58 on May 3, 2008

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