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The Fog posted:Also, check out this video for hardcore: Dude, thanks so much for this link. I learned a ton from it.
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Jun 28, 2008 04:07
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Mr. Pharmacist posted:This thread seems to be more for computer stuff but what's a good drum machine? I was looking to avoid going over ~$300 but if it's worth it I can and from what I can tell most of the good ones are. Are you looking for a 'classic' drum machine? Or just to have a modern one?
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Jun 28, 2008 04:26
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IanTheM posted:Are you looking for a 'classic' drum machine? Or just to have a modern one? Probably a "classic" one, I want it to really sound like a drum machine.
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Jun 28, 2008 05:01
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Mr. Pharmacist posted:Probably a "classic" one, I want it to really sound like a drum machine. This could be difficult to pull off with your budget. Vintage drum machines go for pretty crazy amounts nowadays, but you can find a few deals. - Roland TR-707. The 909's little bro. Sounds very similar to the 909 and carries virtually none of the mystique that has driven up that machine's prices in recent years. - Alesis HR-16. Supposedly the 'B' model is the one to go to for more electronic-oriented sounds. Cheap as hell too.
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Jun 28, 2008 05:37
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Cyne posted:This could be difficult to pull off with your budget. Vintage drum machines go for pretty crazy amounts nowadays, but you can find a few deals. I'll look into those. I don't mind spending more on one, it's not really a budget issue. I just didn't want to spend any more if I didn't have to, but it does look like I'll have to spend more for what I'm looking for...
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Jun 28, 2008 05:45
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Don't get either of them, just get a Korg Electribe S(X) or an Akai MPC. Load up the drum sounds of the 707/808/909 - freely available here and you've got it. For the 808 or 909 there's a reason to get the originals, but you can do a LOT with good samples. For the 707 it's not worth the hassle.
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Jun 28, 2008 07:55
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Hey dude, scram. I'm THIS close to pawning off my old TR-505 to this guy. It's vintage. Actually I think I'm just gonna use it as a ghetto MIDI controller.
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Jun 28, 2008 08:40
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Otherwise, mod the living hell out of it.
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Jun 28, 2008 10:27
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If you really want to sound like an 808/909 go hunting for a Jomox XBase09. It has been discontinued but you can find ones in reasonably good condition for about £350.00 sterling on eBay. I'm not sure how high it goes in US dollars but it can sound very 909ish. You can't afford an XBase999 so forget about that. Brand new it will cost you about the same as a used TR-909. You could get a Vermona DRM-1 mk II for about 500 bucks but you have to really like primitive electro because all the drums sounds are kind of small and...electro-ish. If you like that sound but can't afford a mk II you could probably pick up a DRM second hand for about 300 bucks but they aren't exactly common. TR-707 is still inexpensive and so is the TR-606 but give them a listen first. The 707 has some sounds which are really close to the 909 but the bassdrum and snare are completely different. I know it is not uncommon for people to go all out for a 909 purely for its bass and snare drums. The only analogue drum machines I want right now are either a Jomox XBase999 or a Machinedrum SPS-1. That includes all the really old stuff (I would say categorically that I would rather have an XBase999 than a TR-909. Expensive bugger though.) WanderingKid fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 28, 2008 |
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Jun 28, 2008 20:30
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Yoozer posted:For the 808 or 909 there's a reason to get the originals, but you can do a LOT with good samples. I thought so originally but I changed my mind some time ago. Samples are fine if you can find one that sounds exactly like what you want. But I rarely see that happening so I prefer to program it and sequence it myself. If you wanted 808 and 909 drum sounds and you don't have enough money to buy a real 808 or 909 or a Jomox XBase then I would completely skip the samples and the Electribe stuff and go straight for the VST plugins. In particular, D-16 Group Drumazon (a rather good 909 clone) and Nepheton (a very convincing 808 clone). Both are cheap as chips compared to the alternatives and they program just like the real things.
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Jun 28, 2008 20:39
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Do I need monitors to write music in Ableton to give me an accurate feedback or are computer speakers good enough? I made a simple 2 minute song and when I export, it sounds nothing like it does in Ableton. The mix is all over the place and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. On a sidenote, does anyone happen to know the specific kind of synth and effect is used to produce the repeating riff in I Was A Boy From School by Hot Chip? http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q3XWTKJGGzc I'm looking to spend about $60-100 for a used midi controller that I can use to manipulate some midi effects. I was looking at the M-Audio Axiom but while I like having a keyboard I think I'd prefer having more knobs and stuff. I guess I'll eventually end up getting both but I can't make up my mind on what I want. Are there any budget alternatives to the UC33? Adrenochrome fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jun 28, 2008 |
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Jun 28, 2008 21:10
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Yoozer posted:Otherwise, mod the living hell out of it. Hey, that sounds really nifty. I might just go for that patchbay mod. Also, what about a Novation Drum Station? I've seen both the original and v2 version going for pretty cheap on eBay. I've never used one myself but I know a ton of folks who love those Novation boxes. Cyne fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jun 28, 2008 |
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Jun 28, 2008 21:21
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Hey all... I'm an electronica freak, but these days I've been very into drum n' bass, breakcore, gabber, and digital hardcore. Specifically, I love Alec Empire, Shizuo, Ladyscraper, Vex Kiddie, and Venetian Snares. Right now, I'm a hobby-level producer, having fun making my own elecronic tracks in Sony's Acid Music Studio. Since I haven't read any of you talking about Acid Studio, I can only assume that it's rookie poo poo. Even so, it's a fun way for me to make some music. My question is this: how are guys like Alec Empire and Ladyscraper creating these frenetic, hostile drum beats? I understand the breakcore/dnb method of chopping up breakbeats and frankensteining them back together. I can pitch shift them, speed them up, slow them down, reverse 'em, etc. But I can't seem to cobble a solid gabber/digital hardcore drum beat from scratch or from a non-gabber drum sample. Is there a certain drum program that is optimal for dnb, digital hardcore, gabber, or breakcore? Or, is there just a certain methodology to it? If any of you know Acid Music Studio, is there companion software you'd recommend? My budget for new software is probably in the $200.00 range. I would prefer things that I can use just on my (Dell) laptop (which is brand new). Also, if there are free programs that work just as well, let me know. I know pieces of this question have been answered here and there, but I wanted to see if anyone could consolidate some knowledge specifically for gabber/dhc.
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Jun 28, 2008 22:44
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Is there a trick to making Ableton Live export the song like how it sounds in playback? This song I made sounds fine in Ableton but when I export it the levels are all over the place and everything sounds 10 times louder  It also sounds like some of the effects are getting left out.
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Jun 28, 2008 23:45
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WanderingKid posted:I thought so originally but I changed my mind some time ago. Samples are fine if you can find one that sounds exactly like what you want. But I rarely see that happening so I prefer to program it and sequence it myself.  . The free versions have every knob position imaginable.Cyne posted:Also, what about a Novation Drum Station? I've seen both the original and v2 version going for pretty cheap on eBay. I've never used one myself but I know a ton of folks who love those Novation boxes. Anal Surgery posted:Since I haven't read any of you talking about Acid Studio, I can only assume that it's rookie poo poo. quote:My question is this: how are guys like Alec Empire and Ladyscraper creating these frenetic, hostile drum beats? It works so well because 64 steps (4 x 16) allow you to chop up a break in the most screwed up way imaginable and it'll still sound alright. Plus, it doesn't phase at high tempos (the old Fasttracker had a sort of multiplier that you could use to run the pattern at a set tempo of 130 bpm, but it'd scroll by 3 times as fast, for instance). Plus, Fasttracker would automatically kill a previously triggered sound if the new one was on the same track.
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Jun 29, 2008 00:08
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Anal Surgery posted:Hey all... Hardstyle type drums are really easy. Go get: D-16 Drumazon demo D-16 Devastor demo or Tri Dirt (freeware) TLS Saturated Driver (freeware tube distortion plug) Load up a standard 909 kit in Drumazon, turn on pattern write mode and plop a kick drum down (double click it in the sequencer so it is accented). Mute all the other instruments. Adjust the drum to taste (you perhaps want a bit more decay than stock and maybe a little bit of negative pitch modulation so it sounds like its 'going down'). Export the wave and chop the drum so you have a nice one shot sample and run it through Devastor. It takes a while to learn how to use this distortion plugin but flip through some of the presets to get an idea of the range of sound shaping you can get. I stuck the drum through TLS Saturated Driver to give it a bit of wub and this is the result: http://media.putfile.com/Gabber-Kick Its 32/44.1 so I'm not sure if you can play it your media player. I can play it in mine using a Realtek AC97 so it seems ok. Turn down the volume before pressing play because it might be a bit loud. If you can hear it then just save it and use it in your tunes if you want. You can use Drumazon for the 909 snare too. You don't need to distort it as massively as the kick but you should recognise it instantly (gabber snare rolls). That and the offhat and you have a 200bpm kit that you can readily identify from any really extreme hardcore track. For a more modern style hardcore kick drum you need to go the Alphazone route which involves splicing various drum machine sounds, gated reverb kicks, snares, closed and open hats (pretty much anything thats loud and transient) into 1 sample and deliberating creating a massive clip so that it literally 'bangs'. Alternatively you can just buy VEC-1 which is all over hardstyle and hardcore and has been for a few years now and the guy behind Alphazone just gives you a tonne of samples he made himself. I prefer my drums to be a little more subtle but hey. WanderingKid fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jun 29, 2008 |
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Jun 29, 2008 00:18
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The samples up at hyperreal of those old drum machines are pretty poo poo. They sound very flat and there aren't any multi samples. Also, if you prefer the sound of the 808 to the 909 but don't want to spend the cash on the XBase or a real 808, the TR-606 has much of the same character and can be had quite cheaply. Also the Korg DR-110 is really really basic but sound very nice in a classic analog drum machine kind of way and you can pick them up for a steal. Also trackers are awesome and if anyone has any more specific questions on them I'm happy to answer (Ive been using them since Amiga Protracker).
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Jun 29, 2008 04:01
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I've got something like 300 909 Kicks. If I can't find the sound I'm looking for in there, something's wrong.Adrenochrome posted:Is there a trick to making Ableton Live export the song like how it sounds in playback? This song I made sounds fine in Ableton but when I export it the levels are all over the place and everything sounds 10 times louder It exports it exactly as it sounds. Make sure you're exporting the master track, and you don't have any crazyass routing that's going on that might bypass it. Alternately, don't normalize if your track is really low.
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Jun 29, 2008 04:11
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WanderingKid posted:The only analogue drum machines I want right now are either a Jomox XBase999 or a Machinedrum SPS-1. pretty sure the machine drum isn't analogue mate nice advice and such though, good posting (sounds sarcastic but it's not meant to be)
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Jun 29, 2008 06:44
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Does anyone know how to make that ringy xylophone sound that Boards of Canada uses in The Color Of The Fire? Is it just an enveloped sine wave with ring modulation, or is it FM synthesis?
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Jun 29, 2008 08:02
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archie posted:pretty sure the machine drum isn't analogue mate Screw all that poo poo Linn Drum all the way. http://www.davesmithinstruments.com/products/linndrum2/ There is more than one machine drum just so you know. I believe the mono machine uses virtual analog, and a new version of FM plus about 15 other kinds of sound design. Rkelly fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jun 29, 2008 |
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Jun 29, 2008 09:44
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Mannex posted:Does anyone know how to make that ringy xylophone sound that Boards of Canada uses in The Color Of The Fire? That is indeed a pretty typical FM sound. Bell tones and other metallic type sounds are definitely a strength of FM. Just shuffle through the presets on any FM synth and you'll almost certainly come across a reasonable facsimile.
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Jun 29, 2008 11:15
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archie posted:pretty sure the machine drum isn't analogue mate no, those two drums machines use analog circuits to produce their sound.
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Jun 29, 2008 17:38
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Should have made it clearer. The XBase has certain things that are fully analogue and the rest are samples. The SPS-1 has certain things that are virtual analogue and the rest are samples or physically modelled. Either way I kind of want both but if I get an XBase999 I want the beige one not the charcoal one thats being sold on the site.
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Jun 29, 2008 18:29
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WanderingKid posted:Drumazon I may be retarded, but I couldn't find any way to export/save as a wav file. Every save function was disabled. Thanks for the advice anyway, I understood the gist of what you were talking about. Once I can tell my rear end from a vst plugin, that should help alot. Yoozer posted:A tracker. Alec Empire has used the Amiga, Venetian Snares has Renoise. Oy vey... I perused a couple trackers and downloaded a couple demos and free ones. I feel like I did back in chemistry: "zuh?"  Everyone who hears my Alec Empire/Bomb 20/Shizuo tracks is like, "What the gently caress is that noise, how does that even take skill?". I should just load up the litany of programs used and show them how much. edit: Right now I'm playing with MadTracker which seems the most user-friendly to me right now. That Dang Dad fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jun 29, 2008 |
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Jun 29, 2008 20:53
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Anal Surgery posted:I may be retarded, but I couldn't find any way to export/save as a wav file.  . Since you can usually "render" to wave file, trial versions forbid you to save the plugin data (and you can get around that by taking screenshots, but that kind of sucks).quote:Oy vey... I perused a couple trackers and downloaded a couple demos and free ones. I feel like I did back in chemistry: "zuh?" Trackers are stepsequencers. It's FL Studio, only vertical instead of horizontal, and going 4 times as fast.
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Jun 30, 2008 07:02
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Yoozer posted:Trackers are stepsequencers. It's FL Studio, only vertical instead of horizontal, and going 4 times as fast. It's slightly more complex than that (or can be), since everything gets represented in text (and hex unless you're a pussy in Renoise who checks the use decimal option). Also the whole thing is built up from what was really a softsampler with a basic step sequencer attached to it so many of the commands and effects channel stuff is all geared toward sample manipulation. Honestly I almost never actually recommend trackers because either you're the kind of nut who got hooked on them with an Amiga 15 years ago or you're not crazy and you use something that was conceived of in this century. If anyone thinks they might be nutty enough to try though I can give some help. Currently Renoise is the de facto "pro tracking" standard. Some will argue but screw them, Renoise has a fantastic audio engine and is the only professionally developed and distributed package imho at the moment. I do hear that there is renewed work on Buzz going on though, which is interesting. I haven't looked over Madtracker in a while either.
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Jun 30, 2008 16:06
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IMO, the problems with trackers is that they're a pain to work with if you're dependent on samples other than one shot samples. There's no good way to zoom in or out of a project which makes it hard to find mistakes in the arrangement. There's no good way to record samples (in a tracker which is MADE for samples nonetheless), so if you're trying to do any original work with vocals, you'll really have to work a lot just to get things going. TBH, I see no reason (but it's possible if you really must) to use trackers if your goal is to make serious/pro-quality music as the other DAWs are better for that. Some people like the routing capability that Buzz offers, but you can do the same with inserts and sends in any DAW, so I see no reason to use Buzz either TBH.
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Jun 30, 2008 16:20
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I've caught the bug. Even though I don't know a god drat thing about making electronic music, it still hasn't stopped me from making tons of generic beats and messing around with the effects. I'd like to read up more on compressors and EQ. Are there any good primers on getting started with using it effectively? Which synths should I begin learning to use? I don't want to be a jack of all trade master of none, so I figured I should start learning how to work one. I want to write music similar to Daft Punk, so I guess it would fall under house. I mean I just feel like there's so much stuff to learn I don't even know where to begin! I want a midi controller but I don't think I need a keyboard. I have a friend who knows nothing about music but I think if I set him up with a decent midi controller he can still play gigs. I've been looking at the UC-33. Are there any other budget options? Since he doesn't know how to play any instruments he'd be using the midi controller to trigger clips and change parameters on audio effects in real time.
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Jun 30, 2008 17:22
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Adrenochrome posted:Which synths should I begin learning to use? Then go to FM territory, 4 or 6 operator. It's basically a complete restart - the subtractive stuff is like sculpting. You start out with a rough-hewn block of marble and chop away everything that's not like David, FM or additive is more like starting with a blank canvas and adding colors. Radically different, and seemingly harder to program as well, but capable of much more interesting sounds. quote:so I guess it would fall under house. - Electric bass or Moog bass (only a few variations) - Rhodes, Wurlitzer or piano - strings (these are hard and samples will do the job) - guitar (sampling this is hard, so it helps if you have a buddy with some guitar experience). - or lots of cratedigging and hoping nobody else used what you found. quote:I mean I just feel like there's so much stuff to learn I don't even know where to begin! It's a parallel process - while messing around you make little usable bits of loops and sounds. Save them. Yes, they'll sound ridiculous after a year, but it's experience. quote:I want a midi controller but I don't think I need a keyboard.
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Jun 30, 2008 17:45
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Yoozer posted:Start with a 2 oscillator polysynth and a 3 oscillator monosynth. Yeah definitely start with a subtractive synth - the simpler the better and if it has its signal chain marked on the UI or a schematic or something then even better since you can follow what its doing and how the sound is changing. However I wouldn't go into FM without knowing the following: 1) how to program a simple subtractive synthesizer, what oscillators, filters and envelopes are, what all these modules do and how they interact. 2) how to read a spectrum. 3) how to interpret an oscilloscope trace and how it is different to a spectrum. 4) simple addition, subtraction, multiplication and division of frequencies, exponents, reciprocals and basic trigonometry and how to interpret 'unit circles' to understand why sine waves are the building blocks of FM and additive synthesis, why we have to deal with the concepts of phase and periodicity and why we measure differences in phase and periodicity in terms of degrees. 5) what a partial is and how harmonically complex sounds can be seen as being derived from them. 6) how to additively synthesize basic non linear waveforms (i.e. ramp, square and triangle) by summing sine waves. For instance, you need to know that a square wave (a common oscillator waveform in subtractive synthesis) consists of a fundamental sine wave and all of its odd harmonic sine waves at fixed multiple frequencies of the fundamental. You need to know what these terms mean. For example: If I told you that the first 5 harmonics of a 262hz (middle C) tone were 784hz, 1310hz, 1834hz, 2358hz and 2882hz you should be able to tell without seeing or hearing it that it is a square wave or tending towards one. You should be able to see this on a spectrum of a square wave and read off each harmonic on the graph. You will be able to hear its distinctive sound as long as no other signal interferes with it. You should be able to tell that each harmonic of a square wave are related by being odd integer multiples of its fundamental frequency and that the amplitudes of all those those harmonics are related by the reciprocal of those integer multiples. This all seems a bit unnecessary and abstract at first but if you know all of this then you can look at a 6op FM synth and you can synthesize a square wave instantly because you know what the harmonic intervals are and you know how much energy each harmonic has to have. You can do this with a ramp wave and a triangle wave and any other periodic signal that can come out of a subtractive analogue synthesizer. In short, you are half way to the point of programming an FM synth with a mind to making it sound like a subtractive analogue synth. Once you have got the hang of that then you can move one step further and start modelling up to the first 6 partials of an acoustic instrument or any instrument you can find a sound clip of. You almost certainly want to look at a spectrum of the instrument and make a note of the first 6 partials and their amplitudes (they won't necessarily be harmonic nor will their amplitudes be mathematically related). Once you can build basic approximations of simple real world sounds then you can add noise generators, filters and waveshapers to the signal chain for extra sound shaping and morph those sounds into something completely different but with the same harmonic complexity. Or you can use them to model instruments that are atonal and derive their sound in fairly complicated ways. A noise generator + high and low pass filter array for instance can be controlled by the velocity of a share hit so that it increases the amount of broadband noise in the signal when you smash the key harder (which approximates the noisy and harsher sound you get by twatting a snare drum really hard with a stick). What you absolutely must not do is wing it and just twiddle knobs and sliders because this won't work with FM or additive synthesis and everything you make will turn to complete poo poo. You will never be able to create anything good sounding with any sort of consistancy and you will become one of those people that just cheeses DX style presets and never be able to create your own sounds or do anything without your DX presets. Take it as a given that you need to know some very simple math and you need to be organised and methodical in your approach to FM sound design and you will coast it. But I wouldn't even go near it unless you are really intimately familiar with how a subtractive analogue synth works and how to program it to get sounds that you want. Subtractive synthesis has long been known for being the simplest, easiest and most intuitive way of creating a broad variety of sounds and if you are interested in dance music then 90% of the stock 'electronicy' sounds you have been hearing for the past 20 years have either come from subtractive analogue synths anyway. So a number of folks never find themselves wanting or needing to move onto a different method of creating sounds. Certain things FM and Additive synths can do that Subtractive synths cannot. Theoretically you should be able to do anything a subtractive synth does additively but the process would more often than not take forever, would be more analytical than spontaneous and it would be boring as gently caress to program. Besides you will never be able to model the subtle imperfect behaviour of inherantly unstable velocity control oscillators and filters so some would say the task is futile and I more or less agree up to a point. The bottom line is that it isn't worth thinking about what you can and cannot do with these two types of synths. If your learning takes you that way then fine - just go with the tide. It will work out better for you to focus on getting good simple sounds first before getting good complex sounds. WanderingKid fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jul 1, 2008 |
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Jun 30, 2008 20:45
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Thanks for the super helpful replies! I will give the web-site a read. I feel like I could be content with fiddling around with the presets but I hate not knowing what each individual things do. Also forgot to mention I'm using Ableton, so which instruments should I be working with? Music programs sure have come a long way from when I used to copy and paste each thing through Acid 4.0  Can you recommend any books or publications for making electronic? If I had to choose the type of sound I'm going for, I guessed wrong. I think Daft Punk is a bad example of the sound I want since I was citing Digital Love and Something About Us as examples. I want to be able to mix in some vocals to the mix. Something in between Cut Copy, Hot Chip and My bloody Valentine. I'll get to reading but I think I'll have to take it slowly at first because it's a bit overwhelming. Once I get around to arranging things I'll have to post it here to get help
Adrenochrome fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 30, 2008 |
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Jun 30, 2008 21:16
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The Fog posted:IMO, the problems with trackers is that they're a pain to work with if you're dependent on samples other than one shot samples. There's no good way to zoom in or out of a project which makes it hard to find mistakes in the arrangement. There's no good way to record samples (in a tracker which is MADE for samples nonetheless), so if you're trying to do any original work with vocals, you'll really have to work a lot just to get things going. Well the reason I'm playing with them is to make my own aggressive gabber/digital hardcore drum beats. I prefer my DAW to the tracker, since it's easier to use. I was just having a hard time crafting some face-melting drum loops and a tracker was suggested to me. trust me, if there is an easier way than trackers, I'm up for it. I'm still trying to work on WanderingKid's method also.
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Jun 30, 2008 21:22
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wanderingkid i admire your dedication to these threads
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Jun 30, 2008 21:37
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Fun little flash tool for playing with some synth stuff. http://www.hobnox.com/audiotool-startpage.1046.en.html
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Jun 30, 2008 23:47
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Anal Surgery posted:Well the reason I'm playing with them is to make my own aggressive gabber/digital hardcore drum beats. I prefer my DAW to the tracker, since it's easier to use. I was just having a hard time crafting some face-melting drum loops and a tracker was suggested to me. i dont think a tracker will help you make better music
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Jul 1, 2008 02:25
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Adrenochrome posted:Thanks for the super helpful replies! I will give the web-site a read. Or if you're lazy and don't feel like reading through the Math Textbook of Synthesis, you could read this much more accessible guide. http://www.beatportal.com/topics/c/guide-to-synthesis/ Plus it goes into sampling a little as well, which is extremely relevant to your interests. PowerLlama posted:Fun little flash tool for playing with some synth stuff. Mannex fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jul 1, 2008 |
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Jul 1, 2008 07:28
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Anal Surgery posted:I was just having a hard time crafting some face-melting drum loops and a tracker was suggested to me. You could use a tracker for a set of breakbeats, render these to .wav files and import 'm in your DAW of choice. Adrenochrome posted:since I was citing Digital Love and Something About Us as examples. Quincy Smallvoice posted:wanderingkid i admire your dedication to these threads just don't mention the virus b
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Jul 1, 2008 07:38
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Rkelly posted:Screw all that poo poo Linn Drum all the way. i'll stick with my machinedrum. the mono machine isn't a machinedrum, it's a mono machine they are both made by https://www.elektron.se oredun posted:no, those two drums machines use analog circuits to produce their sound. drat! i have the 8th SPS1-UW MKII machinedrum made, i demand an analog refit (retrofit?)! 
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Jul 1, 2008 08:16
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 I've been working on this House song lately, and I was wondering if you guys have anything to say about song structure in general. Is there a certain bar count for breakdowns and what not that I should follow to make mixing easier? I'm also showing the Linn drum some love in this track, love how the snare sounds like a soft smash, and not too much like an actual snare.
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Jul 1, 2008 09:30
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