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Computer Opponent
Nov 29, 2002

Nothing's gonna ever keep ya down!
I've got an 02 wrx that I bought new, and I'm only a few miles shy of 150k. High miles, yeah, but I bought it to drive it, and I plan to drive it until it crumbles into dust.

Anyway, my question is this: Do any of you have any experience with the strong gas smell at very low temperatures? I've read a little about the problem on scoobymods and nasioc. The actual cause escapes me. Anyway, I know there's a technical service bulletin about it, but no actual recall. Which seems odd, considering there's fuel leaking somewhere. I've put up with the smell every winter for the past 6 years, and I've decided to do something about it this year.

What are dealerships like with stuff like this? I believe they should fix the problem free of charge, since it IS an inherent design flaw. But I get the feeling I'm going to have a rough time considering the high mileage. Am I REALLY gonna have to fight for it? Because I don't really feel like doing that.

I read (a bit) of the nasioc thread. It's pretty rage-filled. This isn't going to be easy, is it. :(

Computer Opponent fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Nov 14, 2008

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Turbo Car
Sep 17, 2008

Cat Terrist posted:

Who the gently caress gets something called Rally Armour mudflaps? Right there, you know they wont work.

Mine kick serious arse. 10 rallycrosses and they're still doing their thing.

Checking in here:
'06 WRX, VF39 ported & polished and the associated bits to make it work, 285awhp on 91 with a safe tune, 319awhp on 110. Tuned myself, full boooostu by 3.3k, and an antilag e85 map that shoots flames Fast & Furiously.

'99 2.5rs project car, debating starting a thread on it. Maybe throwing a 2.2l turbo Crawford spare block from work and boosting the hell out of it.

I build rallycars for a (poor) living, so it's only fitting that I own all Subarus.

Altimeter
Sep 10, 2003


azflyboy posted:

I believe the high idle is related to the engine being cold, and the idle comes down to normal as the engine gets up to temperature.

As to why it happens in the summer, I have no idea.

I can understand the idle being a bit higher as it warms up, but is it really normal to have the revs go up to 2500-3000 when putting the clutch in? This is my first Manual Transmission car, so I am picking this up as I go. I also found that the engine is a fair bit louder at first in the AM, sounds like it may be a clicking/ticking as I give it gas. Again, after three or five minutes it seems to go away....

aluminumonkey
Jun 19, 2002

Reggie loves tacos
I just joined the Subaru family by picking up an 09 OBP/DGM Impreza Outback Sport. Was going to go with the WRX, but the monthly payments are kinda ridiculous.

grzydj
Oct 4, 2000

You say agricultural or thrummy, I say totally yummy.

DSeeGull posted:

well than in that regards do you think gutting the up would be equivalent to replacing it

The flow on Cobb and other aftermarket UPs are better than a gutted stocker. Still, you're going to spool up about 2-300 RPMs quicker than before with a gutted pipe.

If you've got the coin, I'd get an aftermarket UP and keep your original in case you can't get your car to pass emissions or if you want to sell it or whatever.

FecalFajita
Jun 27, 2003
8=======D--
I'm thinking about picking up a 2002-2005 WRX with around 50k miles. It seems like everyone just beats the poo poo out of these cars though...Are there any tell tale signs that these cars have been beat/neglected?

MMD3
May 16, 2006

Montmartre -> Portland

grzydj posted:

The flow on Cobb and other aftermarket UPs are better than a gutted stocker. Still, you're going to spool up about 2-300 RPMs quicker than before with a gutted pipe.

If you've got the coin, I'd get an aftermarket UP and keep your original in case you can't get your car to pass emissions or if you want to sell it or whatever.

From what I've been told WRX's with Cobb Stage 2 are fine for passing emissions in Oregon, I suppose it depends on the state and how stringent the emissions laws are at your DEQ but has anyone found this to be generally untrue?

I'm planning on having some work done on my 2005 92x aero in the not-too distant future but if I know for a fact I won't be able to pass emissions with an aftermarket exhaust then it might effect my decision.

rk
May 22, 2003

Cat Terrist posted:

Who the gently caress gets something called Rally Armour mudflaps? Right there, you know they wont work.

That was the first thing I put on my 08 STI when I got it some 10 months ago. I drive through construction every day and I swear, those flaps are the only things that have kept the fender flares from being sandblasted by the gravel and dirt I drive through. They're awesome and their customer server is impeccable.

te
Jun 19, 2006
werd

DSeeGull posted:

I've got an 03 bugeye which i purchased in June but haven't been able to drive until recently due to an accident that occurred shortly after I purchased which left my clutch leg incapacitated. So now that I am finally driving it again I am looking to do the fairly typical upgrades. I was given a tanabe cat back and a cobb intake. I would like to finish off upgrading my subie's breathing capabilities with down/up pipes and then an accessport. If I purchase a catless up-pipe is my car going to fail emissions? Is a lightweight crank and pulley kit worth the investment as well?

With a stock map you should pass everything except a visual.

e: But don't take my word for it.

te fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 14, 2008

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

rk posted:

That was the first thing I put on my 08 STI when I got it some 10 months ago. I drive through construction every day and I swear, those flaps are the only things that have kept the fender flares from being sandblasted by the gravel and dirt I drive through. They're awesome and their customer server is impeccable.

What makes them different from other mudflaps? Just thicker and tougher?

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Hmm would those mudflaps help keep water from splashing up on the rear window of a Forester?
I'm looking around for a wiper stalk with the intermittent setting though, as regular is just too fast for most of the time. Also, there are pine needles EVERYWHERE at this time of year in Seattle, and they get into everything.

idiotsavant
Jun 4, 2000

TurboLuvah posted:

Not to be a creeper, but if you're anywhere near MA I have a very nice 5MT 99 Forester S for sale.

Nope, I'm in SF. That said if anyone in the area has something, let me know! :)

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

kimbo305 posted:

What makes them different from other mudflaps? Just thicker and tougher?

They have RALLY on them. Duh, of course they are God's gift to mudflaps.

No, they are ricing BS that real rally drivers laugh at - You can do better and cheaper with a set of aftermarket rubber ones or hell, make your own with the stuff that trucks use. If you want REAL rallying protection, the urathane is at least twice as thick and a good deal wider and drops lower, while extending higher up the arch.

DSeeGull
Mar 21, 2007
Tapping the Void

FecalFajita posted:

I'm thinking about picking up a 2002-2005 WRX with around 50k miles. It seems like everyone just beats the poo poo out of these cars though...Are there any tell tale signs that these cars have been beat/neglected?

Assuming you aren't going to be able to take apart the engine and get a good look at internals there are some obvious things you want to look for, which sort of goes standard for every car. Make sure all the panels are lining up correctly, look for bondo in suspicious places ie wheel wheels and side skirts. Take a close look at your A pillars and make sure that they are matching in shape and meeting point. I was about to purchase what looked to be a beautiful bug eye and upon closer inspection realized that the pillars were mishapen and about 1/2in off on either side. Look for consistency in the weather stripping, you can be drat sure that your subie isn't leaving the factory with multitonal weatherstripping. I know it seems obvious, but these are the things that can often be overlooked and easily covered up to make it look like you car wasn't beat to all hell. Take it to a legit mechanic that you trust and get a professional opinion. Take it for a test drive, just be smart. If they dealership is claiming it was stock open up the hood and look for tell tale signs that the car was put back to stock. Mismatched bolts, shaky dustpan. All signs that the car was modded and put back together for retail.

choo choo
Nov 26, 2002

Computer Opponent posted:

I've got an 02 wrx that I bought new, and I'm only a few miles shy of 150k. High miles, yeah, but I bought it to drive it, and I plan to drive it until it crumbles into dust.

Anyway, my question is this: Do any of you have any experience with the strong gas smell at very low temperatures? I've read a little about the problem on scoobymods and nasioc. The actual cause escapes me. Anyway, I know there's a technical service bulletin about it, but no actual recall. Which seems odd, considering there's fuel leaking somewhere. I've put up with the smell every winter for the past 6 years, and I've decided to do something about it this year.

What are dealerships like with stuff like this? I believe they should fix the problem free of charge, since it IS an inherent design flaw. But I get the feeling I'm going to have a rough time considering the high mileage. Am I REALLY gonna have to fight for it? Because I don't really feel like doing that.

It's a common problem, and the TSB has a proper replacement part for the fuel rails. The connection from the soft fuel lines to the metal fuel rails leaks, and you get the raw gas smell.

If you have always brought your car to the dealer for servicing, and spent a lot of money there, they might be more willing to help, but I haven't heard of many freebie repairs out of warranty.

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Cat Terrist posted:

They have RALLY on them. Duh, of course they are God's gift to mudflaps.

No, they are ricing BS that real rally drivers laugh at - You can do better and cheaper with a set of aftermarket rubber ones or hell, make your own with the stuff that trucks use. If you want REAL rallying protection, the urathane is at least twice as thick and a good deal wider and drops lower, while extending higher up the arch.

I guess someone used the word "rally" in vain. Yep, functional mud flaps are rice.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

FecalFajita posted:

I'm thinking about picking up a 2002-2005 WRX with around 50k miles. It seems like everyone just beats the poo poo out of these cars though...Are there any tell tale signs that these cars have been beat/neglected?
Does it have the orginal clutch and transmission?
If not, it's probably been beat to poo poo.
Or just look at the cars. Avoided modded cars.

Cat Terrist posted:

They have RALLY on them. Duh, of course they are God's gift to mudflaps.

No, they are ricing BS that real rally drivers laugh at - You can do better and cheaper with a set of aftermarket rubber ones or hell, make your own with the stuff that trucks use. If you want REAL rallying protection, the urathane is at least twice as thick and a good deal wider and drops lower, while extending higher up the arch.
Strangely enough though, if you own an LGT and want something to keep winter from tearing the crap out of your rear-quarter panels (a problem with LGT wagons up in MN) and don't go off-road and don't want to look like a wanna-be rally racer, they're perfect.
Mine don't even say anything on them.

nm fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Nov 15, 2008

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

nm posted:

Strangely enough though, if you own an LGT and want something to keep winter from tearing the crap out of your rear-quarter panels (a problem with LGT wagons up in MN) and don't go off-road and don't want to look like a wanna-be rally racer, they're perfect.
Mine don't even say anything on them.

YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ITS RICER poo poo!

Australia doesn't even really get winter.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Mr. Powers posted:

YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ITS RICER poo poo!

Australia doesn't even really get winter.
well, I don't think Kangaroos would be that mobile in 2 feet of snow.

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

Mr. Powers posted:

I guess someone used the word "rally" in vain. Yep, functional mud flaps are rice.

In fact I used this same kind of urethane on the VR4 to start with. Have a guess how long they lasted. And how little it actually did to protect? (It also cost me 20 dollars)

Again, Cheap conveyor belt rubber - gently caress even mudflaps off a semi cut down works better than this poo poo. Your paying at the list price 130 dollars and you want to tell me they are worth it when I know that a 5 dollar solution works better and a 30 dollar solution looks okay too? And doesn't make you look like a wanker? FYI, real rally mud flaps cost less too. And you have some left over for suspension protection.

Worked out why I'm shaking my head at the stupidity of "Rally Armor" yet?


Now this on the other hand is real rally armor





Actually I'm not happy with the sump guard, it's too thin for my liking. The VR4's was 4mm alloy and could take a very big hit. They tell me Subaru's dont require the sheer size of what a VR4 needs - I'm not sure so far, even if the STI does have a lot more gap between sump and ground.





Deposit down, it comes home in a few weeks after I clear out a fuckton of VR4 crap and shells.

CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Nov 15, 2008

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Cat Terrist posted:

In fact I used this same kind of urethane on the VR4 to start with. Have a guess how long they lasted. And how little it actually did to protect? (It also cost me 20 dollars)

Again, Cheap conveyor belt rubber - gently caress even mudflaps off a semi cut down works better than this poo poo. Your paying at the list price 130 dollars and you want to tell me they are worth it when I know that a 5 dollar solution works better and a 30 dollar solution looks okay too? And doesn't make you look like a wanker? FYI, real rally mud flaps cost less too. And you have some left over for suspension protection.

Worked out why I'm shaking my head at the stupidity of "Rally Armor" yet?


Now this on the other hand is real rally armor

We get it. You rally race. Those of us that don't value functionality for on-road driving, and also value appearance, since it is a daily driver and the whole reason people are using these is to keep their paint from getting chipped to hell. Yes, the brand has the word rally in it. Yes, they sell a cheap set that is plastic and/or rubber (I'm not sure what). 99% of the people on this forum are looking for on-road protection from small rocks, road debris, and the salt/sand that is put on roads when the are covered in ice and snow.

Some people just don't want their car to look like this after a few thousand miles, and want the solution to look nice:


Here's some more stuff to get you riled up! (Not grouping this with the mudflaps, since skid plates really have no use on-road, but I bet a company called "Rally Armor" making this crap will really get you going!)

carticket fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Nov 15, 2008

carticket
Jun 28, 2005

white and gold.

Baby Hitler posted:

A pair of Sparco mudflaps is $20 from SubeSports, they are universal fitment and are actual mudflaps rather than stock Subaru ones which keep grime off the body and nothing else. Rally Armor ones are nice, but the price is a bit steep if you want to just have basic working mudflaps.

Universal fitment sounds like it means drilling. Also, they're only available in red, white, or blue. That's a little gaudy for a daily driver that you just want to keep in good shape.

edit: Apparently you can now get the Rally Armor flaps through Subie dealerships, so I'm just going to blow my SubieBux on a set of the Urethane ones, because it's only going to cost me $30.

carticket fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Nov 15, 2008

SpellEdge
Sep 14, 2007
Atk:13 Add: Don't Act

Just picked up an 07 wrb wrx. So much more fun to drive than my 240sx, I'm in love.

nicad
Feb 21, 2004
spending this weekend cramming a set of Acura TSX lenses into my japanese housings. figured I might as well do it the right way and not blind everyone :)

http://img.waffleimages.com/d6ecd7360eaf8aa76ed58519b8ee70044fb881ec/retro%20(resized).jpg

BannedForLulz
Feb 19, 2008

FecalFajita posted:

I'm thinking about picking up a 2002-2005 WRX with around 50k miles. It seems like everyone just beats the poo poo out of these cars though...Are there any tell tale signs that these cars have been beat/neglected?

I bought what is considered to be the absolute biggest no-no in WRX purchases, an 04MY with 52,000 miles, modded with a full exhaust and a loud rear end blow-off value, and with an Accessport tune, and the PO was a 23 year old college student which flat out told me, "I was going to transform it into a rally/drag car."

It did however, have receipts for all the modifications installed by AMS. It had the stock transmission and clutch and the clutch grabs perfectly. Everything checked out great and it had an idle smooth as butter. Was it the best purchase? No. But I havent regretted it at all, and I got it for ~$3,000 cheaper than anything else on the market at the time (plus two sets of wheels and tires!)

Moral of the story, dont let a modded WRX scare you away, BUT, shop smart and have a mechanic look it over. If it doesnt feel right, let it go and see another car.

Turbo Car
Sep 17, 2008

Mr. Powers posted:

Some people just don't want their car to look like this after a few thousand miles, and want the solution to look nice:


I totally agree with Mr. Powers: they're a great solution to protection if you're concerned about damage on a street vehicle that does some offroading/gravel fun. They work great for me when I rallycross.

No need to get all uppity about the name, I doubt anyone serious about rally would consider them. Tech inspection would laugh in your face. Spectators would curse your name as you threw gravel in their faces.

TheFrailNinja
Jun 28, 2008
CAN'T SEE SCHOOL BUS, INSISTS HE'S AN EXCELLENT DRIVER

GET OFF THE ROAD SON

APPARENTLY SUCKS AT POSTING TOO
1995 IMPREZA
2.2 4cyl, auto, AWD, runs/drives gd, 200kmi, tires gd, daily driver, new rotors, calipers, struts & strut mounts, $1495 B/O

What do you think? I found this on a local classifieds.

e: essentially my first car.

Blinky Blinkerson
May 9, 2006
Just picked this up today. Not a WRX, but really nice compared to what I had. (Geo Metro)

edit: image fail. 2007 Impreza Wagon.

8ender
Sep 24, 2003

clown is watching you sleep
Did the timing belt, water pump, and other bits today on the Impreza. Don't know why I was worried, it was easy as hell. Everything is so accessible and well marked on this engine. One odd thing though. Driving it afterwards it feels much, much faster. Like a big noticeable difference faster. Even the exhaust sounds stronger at idle.

While I was removing the coil wires for the "crank the engine with a huge breaker bar attached to the crank bolt" trick I noticed one of the contacts on the coil was quite corroded compared to the others. I cleaned it up before putting everything back together.

The only theories I have for this new found engine power is either that the timing was off on the original belt, cleaning up the coil contacts fixed some sort of weak spark issue, or that I'm crazy and the whole thing is psychological.

TurboLuvah
Jul 24, 2004

Scientifically proven to be more fuel efficient than hybrids!
You can get the "Basic," Rally Armor flaps for like $45 I think as well, and they don't say RALLY on them.

littlehulkster
Oct 28, 2007

by Fistgrrl

TheFrailNinja posted:

1995 IMPREZA
2.2 4cyl, auto, AWD, runs/drives gd, 200kmi, tires gd, daily driver, new rotors, calipers, struts & strut mounts, $1495 B/O

What do you think? I found this on a local classifieds.

e: essentially my first car.

That era of Impreza is one of the most reliable cars you can get, my 95 was still perfect at 300k.

If you don't need the AWD, though, you can probably find a little nicer FWD car for the same money.

nicad
Feb 21, 2004
finished my headlight retrofit today. very pleased with the results

few pictures of in progress and testing

http://jpmusa.com/customers/subaru/n1cad/installed.jpg
http://jpmusa.com/customers/subaru/n1cad/backing.out.jpg

in the process of aiming and getting everything set right:

http://jpmusa.com/customers/subaru/n1cad/DSC_5781.jpg

nicad fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Nov 18, 2008

Mat_Drinks
Nov 18, 2002

mmm this nitromethane gets my supercharger runnin'
Looked at a couple potential project cars last night. I don't know how many of you follow the northwest ads section on NASIOC, but...

I went to see this: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1636894 and thought that maybe if he was negotiable on price it'd be good, but unbeknown to me he'd changed that ad to list "firm". It looked nice in person, but had a slight oil leak from the driver side valve gasket and needs a clutch pretty badly. I don't think it's worth $3k even with the upgrades. $2k seems about right, but he believes the car to be "rare".

Amusingly enough this guy: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1629271 was there too, looking to also test drive the 93. I wondered if the seller thought we'd end up competing for the car when all we really did was work together to inform the other of things wrong that we noticed. I also managed to get the guy to take me for a ride in his untuned 1.8t that's running rich and I was impressed at how fast and smooth it was for still needing work. If I end up with a 1.8 I may have to try the whole 2.2t head swap and turbo before doing a whole engine swap.

So I'll keep watching. I'm pretty much looking for a 93-01 Impreza wagon, 98-01 forester (though manuals seem to be rare), or maybe an 2.5rs, but their values seem to be overly inflated around here. My price limit is about $4k, and my plans include getting started in Rallycross, putting in a cage with my ol' Dad, and having something fun to take camping with the wife.

Turbo Car
Sep 17, 2008
Those rims on the seconds one are pure sex. I love white crazyhighspokecount rims.

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005
I'm officially proud of myself, since I managed to silence the noisy window seals on my Forester for a whopping $11.

Yesterday, I was wiping some snow off the inside of the window gusset (the triangular rubber thing at the front of the window) while driving, and discovered that if I pressed on the gusset, the wind noise almost vanished.

When I got home, I rolled down the front windows, and noticed that the gussets were slightly spread apart at the top, probably from people opening and closing the doors by pushing on the windows before I owned the Forester.

Inspired by this, I bought an $11 set of vice grips (somehow I didn't already own a set), and clamped them down pretty firmly on the top part of both gussets for a couple of seconds. When I removed them, the gap for the window was visibly smaller, and the window motor no longer sounded like it was having a load removed on that part of the track.

Today, I was stunned to be able to drive in 35mph winds, without hearing a whistling from the front windows, and the little stream of cold air that used to come from the front of the windows is gone to boot.

ScaryFast
Apr 16, 2003

Rally Armor flaps are the first thing going on my 08 or 09 Impreza when I buy. I'm not even getting a WRX (unless I find a great deal new or slightly used) I just drive in Canada and want the protection. It snowed for the first time today and my Protege 5 on summer tires barely made it up the hill to my street. Half way up I thought I'd have to stop, reverse down and turn and come around the long but less steep way.

I was looking into clear bra treatments too and the dealership mentioned 3M but I've heard reports on NASIOC that it yellows over time.

Sabotaged
Jul 6, 2004

My '05 Legacy GT clutch is hosed already after just 50k KM, so I'm thinking of getting an ACT SB5-HDMM clutch and an OEM 06 WRX flywheel instead of going the dealer route, because it would be $400 more expensive that way. Someone had this done at Rocket Rally (https://www.rocketrally.com), so I think I'll do the same.

Anyone have any reason I shouldn't go this route? Is the flywheel going to be much noisier?

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."
Remember that the clutch in the LGT is intentionally weak to prevent you from destroying that transmission.
Also how the hell have you killed in in 50km?
My LGT is my first manual transmission, have been tracked, autocrossed almost every summer weekend, and generally driven hard. For 60k mi. I can accelerate (using the term loosely) from ~20mph in 5th with no hint of slip.
If you're abusing your clutch that much, you should consider whether you want to pass that abuse to your transmission.

Also, I don't know what Canadian warranty terms are, but in the US, for 3yrs, 36k mi, the clutch is a warranty item. Really. So are wiper blades, brake pads, and lights. Subaru is awesome.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

ScaryFast posted:

I was looking into clear bra treatments too and the dealership mentioned 3M but I've heard reports on NASIOC that it yellows over time.
It depends where you get the 3M done; from what I understand from asking locals about it, some places use lower-quality film (one doesn't even bother covering the entire hood, with big "panel gaps" on the corners and front edge). On a white car I wouldn't risk it anyway; I'd guess that all of it yellows out eventually.

Black car? Yeah, I'd probably go for that. Looks a lot better than a fabric bra and the Subaru paint is really thin.

Has anyone with a 2008+ Impreza gone for the short shifter kit? Is it actually worth $475 CAD or could I install a third-party one without busting my warranty later?

Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Nov 19, 2008

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Sabotaged
Jul 6, 2004

nm posted:

Remember that the clutch in the LGT is intentionally weak to prevent you from destroying that transmission.
Also how the hell have you killed in in 50km?
My LGT is my first manual transmission, have been tracked, autocrossed almost every summer weekend, and generally driven hard. For 60k mi. I can accelerate (using the term loosely) from ~20mph in 5th with no hint of slip.
If you're abusing your clutch that much, you should consider whether you want to pass that abuse to your transmission.

Also, I don't know what Canadian warranty terms are, but in the US, for 3yrs, 36k mi, the clutch is a warranty item. Really. So are wiper blades, brake pads, and lights. Subaru is awesome.

I just bought it about 2000km ago. I don't how the previous owner treated it.

I called a local dealer the other day and they told me clutch wear was not covered under warranty. I'll check another dealer just to make sure.

Sabotaged fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Nov 20, 2008

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