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egon_beeblebrox posted:
That said, I did like the central tension of the resurrection of Buffy: She could have very well been in some terrible hell dimension, tormented forever due to saving the earth. If this were the case, should not the Scoobies have tried to free her, no matter the cost? This is an entirely understandable motivation; coupled with this is Willow's ever growing power-lust - she thinks she can raise Buffy from the dead, so that's what's she's going to do. I suspect Willow's true motivation is to simply see if she can do it, whereas Xander's is clearly just to get Buffy out of Hell (and back with him).
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Jan 2, 2009 15:00
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Spaceboy posted:The Buffy one-shot was decent, though. It was nice to see Buffy back in High School, and JOYCE! Also, Giles has the best Giles moment in the comic series so far. Yeah it was nice to see the unaired pilot from the cartoon show see the light of day in some form. I think it was the first thing done by Jeph Loeb I've enjoyed in about 2 years. The last being that one episode of Heroes he wrote in season 1.
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Jan 2, 2009 15:12
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redshirt posted:That said, I did like the central tension of the resurrection of Buffy: She could have very well been in some terrible hell dimension, tormented forever due to saving the earth. If this were the case, should not the Scoobies have tried to free her, no matter the cost? Yes, valid question. But this is the issue that I always had with this was the whole hell concept. Yeah, I understand that all the Scoobies know is that there's tons of hell dimensions. But considering the fact that they must have had some sort of religious upbringing at some point, couldn't they even consider the idea that not only do heavenly dimensions exist, but that Buffy might've gotten tossed into one of them? After all the good that she did in five years of being the slayer... There really wasn't any inkling that she might not have been tossed into eternal torment? Really? That just always pissed me off about the Scoobies.
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Jan 2, 2009 18:04
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Friendly Geek posted:Yes, valid question. But this is the issue that I always had with this was the whole hell concept. Yeah, I understand that all the Scoobies know is that there's tons of hell dimensions. But considering the fact that they must have had some sort of religious upbringing at some point, couldn't they even consider the idea that not only do heavenly dimensions exist, but that Buffy might've gotten tossed into one of them? After all the good that she did in five years of being the slayer... There really wasn't any inkling that she might not have been tossed into eternal torment? Really? They definitely did, since Willow was explicitly Jewish at least. But keep in mind how Buffy died; she jumped into a portal to a hell dimension in order to close it. Even if they guessed that there might exist heavenly dimensions, dying that way would certainly suggest that even if she deserved to go there, that might not have been enough. Plus, honestly, I'd say that would be a really hard decision to make even without that consideration. Is it worth the risk that she's suffering in a hell dimension to let her stay dead in case she might be in a heavenly one? And is it worth the risk to bring her back vice versa?
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Jan 2, 2009 19:46
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Idran posted:They definitely did, since Willow was explicitly Jewish at least. But keep in mind how Buffy died; she jumped into a portal to a hell dimension in order to close it. Even if they guessed that there might exist heavenly dimensions, dying that way would certainly suggest that even if she deserved to go there, that might not have been enough. My question is why didn't they try to contact her 'from beyond?' Surely it's not beyond the realm of possibility in the Buffyverse.
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Jan 2, 2009 19:48
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egon_beeblebrox posted:My question is why didn't they try to contact her 'from beyond?' Surely it's not beyond the realm of possibility in the Buffyverse. That's actually a good question. I'm trying to remember if anything like that was ever done on Buffy or Angel that didn't involve ghosts or demonic influence or something, with there being some sort of living/dead contact, and besides Dawn's part of Conversations With Dead People, nothing's coming to mind.
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Jan 2, 2009 19:52
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Idran posted:That's actually a good question. I'm trying to remember if anything like that was ever done on Buffy or Angel that didn't involve ghosts or demonic influence or something, with there being some sort of living/dead contact, and besides Dawn's part of Conversations With Dead People, nothing's coming to mind. Angel's made a few trips to Hell dimensions on his show. Beyond that, I don't really recall too much about communicating with the afterlife, barring Dennis.
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Jan 2, 2009 20:10
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egon_beeblebrox posted:My question is why didn't they try to contact her 'from beyond?' Surely it's not beyond the realm of possibility in the Buffyverse. Why bother? Willow comes to them and says she can bring her back - that's good enough for Xander, I'm sure. I bet they didn't even consider a so-called "heaven" dimension. There's been nothing in the show to indicate there existence. And anyways, "hell" dimensions can be something of a misnomer, either describing the current state of a dimension (ruled by demons), or describing the atmosphere/climate (burning fire, acid rain, etc). Earth, for example, was once a hell dimension, until someone drove out/killed the old demons and most all other demonic lifeforms. Does this make earth a "heaven" dimension? Not bloody likely. Buffy really just claims to be at peace, which is nice enough. Given what the Scoobies know of their demonic environment, its not foolish to conclude she is in Glory's dimension. And if there is a way to save her, then you should do it. I wonder if Giles would have gone along if he had known of Willow's plan.
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Jan 2, 2009 20:13
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redshirt posted:Why bother? Willow comes to them and says she can bring her back - that's good enough for Xander, I'm sure. The shot of decomposed Buffy transforming back into a living person is one of the creepiest and best shots on the show, I think.
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Jan 2, 2009 22:11
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egon_beeblebrox posted:My question is why didn't they try to contact her 'from beyond?' Surely it's not beyond the realm of possibility in the Buffyverse. Sure, there was that device that Gwen Raiden was contracted to steal when she first showed up, that they used to find Cordelia. Same principle.
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Jan 2, 2009 22:39
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redshirt posted:I wonder if Giles would have gone along if he had known of Willow's plan.
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Jan 3, 2009 02:14
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LividLiquid posted:Noper. I just watched season six and he was loving furious that they even tried to resurrect Buffy. Yeah, that was a pretty awesome scene. Him calling out Willow made Giles all the cooler.
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Jan 3, 2009 02:36
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Giles is always great when he has his "Oh, poo poo! Dad's home!" moments.
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Jan 3, 2009 02:50
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LividLiquid posted:Noper. I just watched season six and he was loving furious that they even tried to resurrect Buffy. Yeah, but I got the sense he was more pissed because Willow was such an "amateur". A rank one, at that. What if someone (not Willow) had come to Giles with a plan to resurrect Buffy - he would say no, that's wrong? I think he was more pissed it was Willow who did it, rather than the act itself. Also, what if Buffy was trapped in Hell? Well, Willow would be the big hero, right?
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Jan 3, 2009 03:47
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LividLiquid posted:Giles is always great when he has his "Oh, poo poo! Dad's home!" moments. I'd like to test that theory. redshirt posted:Also, what if Buffy was trapped in Hell? Well, Willow would be the big hero, right? At that point in time, that's what they still thought, no?
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Jan 3, 2009 04:57
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redshirt posted:What if someone (not Willow) had come to Giles with a plan to resurrect Buffy - he would say no, that's wrong? I think he was more pissed it was Willow who did it, rather than the act itself. A lot of supernatural mythologies/magic lores have it such that death is the one thing you can't mess with, the one thing you can't wish away, the one thing that can't be undone. After all, it's basically necromancy, and that's almost universally considered a bad idea. So I just assumed that the Buffyverse has the same death taboo, and that true resurrection (ie, not zombies) would be like, the darkest of dark magics. But I haven't watched Buffy in years, so I might be wrong. 
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Jan 3, 2009 05:44
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Colbear posted:A lot of supernatural mythologies/magic lores have it such that death is the one thing you can't mess with, the one thing you can't wish away, the one thing that can't be undone. After all, it's basically necromancy, and that's almost universally considered a bad idea. That's what it seems like to me. The show supported it too, with the demon that 'hitched a ride' with her and all.
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Jan 3, 2009 05:51
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There was that episode also where Dawn tried to use magic to bring Joyce back. God that was creepy.
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Jan 3, 2009 05:58
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egon_beeblebrox posted:That's what it seems like to me. The show supported it too, with the demon that 'hitched a ride' with her and all. Oh yes, there will be a terrible price to pay for this darkest of magicks. This ultimate boon from the goddesses. *makes corporeal* *cuts off head* Party on.
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Jan 3, 2009 07:31
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Why no excitement for Dollhouse? =(
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Jan 3, 2009 12:16
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Has it aired yet?
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Jan 3, 2009 12:41
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Stonefish posted:Has it aired yet? Need it air for there to be anticipatory excitement?
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Jan 3, 2009 14:02
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-abe- posted:Why no excitement for Dollhouse? =( I'm already pre-bitter that Fox canceled it so soon. drat YOU FOX!!!!
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Jan 3, 2009 15:50
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-abe- posted:Need it air for there to be anticipatory excitement? No, but we've already done that part.
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Jan 3, 2009 16:55
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I have no excitement for Dollhouse because I do not enjoy Eliza Dushku. Faith was the worst part of Buffy, except for maybe Andrew.
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Jan 3, 2009 22:33
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Stonefish posted:At that point in time, that's what they still thought, no? That's what they said but it had more of the air of rationalization than actual belief. Like finding excuses after they realized they had the power to do something.
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Jan 3, 2009 23:21
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Gassire posted:That's what they said but it had more of the air of rationalization than actual belief. Like finding excuses after they realized they had the power to do something. I still think it was more than just that, given that she died by throwing herself bodily into an opening portal to a hell dimension and all. If you die like that, I think assuming your soul's stuck in said dimension is a pretty fair guess to make, even if it proves false later on.
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Jan 3, 2009 23:36
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Ishamael posted:Faith was the worst part of Buffy, except for maybe Andrew. I have no idea how you can simultaneously be so right, and so wrong. Andrew was terrible, and simply should not have happened. Faith was somewhere between "a bit lame" and "quite a lot of fun", lines about archaic game consoles aside. And I'd call it 90% script anyway. They just couldn't write a character like that and make it work.
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Jan 4, 2009 09:51
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I enjoyed Faith when she was bouncing off the Mayor. Their vastly different styles really clicked for me (minigolf!) but, on her own, I got pretty bored with her. That's not to say I didn't like what they did with her. Finally, a character who turned from evil to good without being granted a blank slate. She actually went to prison for what she did. Voluntarily. To make up for her crimes. Everyone else in the history of the genre would have their little breakdown and epiphany, cry for a bit and then be welcomed with open arms. Apart for the occasional snarky comment or joke. Or momentary anger from a past victim who is told to chill out because they're "trying to make up for what they did in the past. Can't help nobody from jail, man" Or there's the one from the other direction, "cheer up there sunshine. Don't worry about all those people you brutally tortured and murdered. Who's up for icecream!" Tra la la.
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Jan 4, 2009 12:44
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Never liked her on buffy (early or later). I liked her in early angel when she was a clearly troubled girl who was hosed up to the core, saw that she was hosed up to the core, and wanted to be better. Later when they tried to make her into some ghetto fabulous rear end-kicker, I was much less intrigued. I always liked LOOKING at her, but then again, I like LOOKING at Heidi Klum. Doesn't mean I'd ever watch Project: Runway if you paid me.
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Jan 4, 2009 12:46
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I'm marathoning through the series with MY GIRLFRIEND and she really, really, really, really hates Dawn. I did too, but I eventually grew to begrudgingly accept her. But watching somebody go through it for the first time is just hilarious. From the first "Who the gently caress is this bratty bitch and why have we never heard her mentioned? This show just jumped the loving shark." all the way to "Get out. Get out! GET OUT!"
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Jan 4, 2009 13:00
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LividLiquid posted:all the way to "Get out. Get out! GET OUT!" I liked her, start to finish. I still don't know why.
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Jan 4, 2009 14:05
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Alright, I finished Buffy seasons 5-7 and now I'm done with all of it and Angel. I really enjoyed both series, but Buffy got sort of bland towards the end. Dawn 'grew' on me as well (aside from the GET OUT and NOBODY LOVES ME moments), but I have to say that Connor was irritating throughout his arc with the exception (as I said) of his re-introduction into the tail end of season five.
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Jan 4, 2009 15:55
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RoryGilmore posted:but I have to say that Connor was irritating throughout his arc with the exception (as I said) of his re-introduction into the tail end of season five. I don't think there's a Man, Woman or Cabbage alive who'd disagree with that assessment.
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Jan 4, 2009 17:55
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My favorite "what the hell, nobody's going to mention this?" of the whole series is Xander being directly responsible for the death of at least one person in the musical and nobody ever talking about it again. Consequence in Buffy is a funny thing - borderline convenient, even. Willow faces direct and difficult consequences for her "addiction" to magic, including being alienated by all of her closest friends. Her punishment for brutally murdering a fellow human being, meanwhile, is a few months in a lovely English countryside. After he got a soul, Angel was so traumatized by the memories of the hundreds he murdered that he spent years upon years as a shell of his former self, running around living off of rat carcasses. Whistler's the only reason he ever made anything out of himself. Spike, on the other hand - who had several hundred more years to do his work in and, presumably, killed far more people because of it - spends a few weeks in a basement mumbling to himself and everything is suddenly peaches and cream. In all fairness, this is actually mentioned in season five of Angel. Xander's punishment for leaving Anya at the altar? Nonexistent. Oz killed several times in the course of the series (again, in all fairness, he was a wolf at the time) - nobody cares. Buffy sleeping with Angel led to Giles being tortured, Jenny Calendar dying and nearly caused the end of the whole gently caress world. Welp, what can you do. Spike attempts to rape Buffy. If he hadn't punished himself for it, he would have gotten off with the slap on the wrist of Dawn not trusting him. It's best not to think about these things, really, because you can analyze it until you're blue in the face but you will never come up with anything more rational than the idea that consequence in the Buffy universe is a plot point, not a character point.
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Jan 4, 2009 18:08
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Toaster Beef posted:Spike, on the other hand - who had several hundred more years to do his work in and, presumably, killed far more people because of it Angel was turned in ~1753. Spike was turned in ~1890. Even excluding SoulTime, Angel had longer at it.
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Jan 4, 2009 18:16
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Toaster Beef posted:Xander's punishment for leaving Anya at the altar? Nonexistent. Oz killed several times in the course of the series (again, in all fairness, he was a wolf at the time) - nobody cares. Buffy sleeping with Angel led to Giles being tortured, Jenny Calendar dying and nearly caused the end of the whole gently caress world. Welp, what can you do. There are all a bit thin - leaving someone at the altar is a personal thing that isn't really akin to the others, Oz wasn't the wolf and after discovering it took all reasonable measures to keep it locked up, and the idea of placing any of the responsibility for Angelus' actions on Buffy for sexing him up is just absurd; there comes a point when it's just part of the random chaos of events leading up to it. Xander's Musical or Spike, on the other hand...
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Jan 4, 2009 18:20
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My bad on the Spike thing, but regardless of timing he was at least as bad as Angel, and still got over his whole 'soul' thing within five minutes and a pat on the back. And some of the examples are thin, yes, but the point still does stand - consequence is flimsy at best. Hell, let's not forget Anya slaughtered an entire fraternity house. Sure Buffy made the effort to kill her, but ultimately Anya's price was a bit of self-reflection.
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Jan 4, 2009 19:03
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Toaster Beef posted:Hell, let's not forget Anya slaughtered an entire fraternity house. Sure Buffy made the effort to kill her, but ultimately Anya's price was a bit of self-reflection. Technically she only killed her demon friend in order to un-do the whole slaughtering humans thing. (Which in of itself was accidental and unknowing)
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Jan 4, 2009 19:32
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Toaster Beef posted:My bad on the Spike thing, but regardless of timing he was at least as bad as Angel, and still got over his whole 'soul' thing within five minutes and a pat on the back. It really isn't in Spike's personality to do tortured emobrooding. On the other hand, despite what he says to everyone else, James Marsters in interviews does point out that Spike was very apprehensive about his ability to atone for anything that he did while without a soul.
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Jan 4, 2009 20:07
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