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I don't disagree here, if you don't have a bandsaw (or table saw), jointer, and planer, making any bench is going to be difficult, but not impossible. You can either do as wormill suggests, find a solid core door and some sawhorses, or you could find a local woodworking club/shop etc. Around here there are two different shops you can pay to be a member of, and take classes at. See if there are any in your area. If there are then I would take this approach, as you could use their tools to build your bench and test the waters to make sure this is the right hobby/craft for you. Where I disagree is the idea that a door on sawhorses isn't a detriment to your work, which it is. The workholding ability of this roman style bench is poor at best, and could be frustrating, especially for a beginner (but it is better than nothing). Or you could get a 6, or 7 size plane and some hand saws and put in a bunch of sweat and make that English bench, it's all the people who invented it had, and they got by just fine. If you do this, start with the sawbenches I linked to in the other thread. Edit: This guy just made that bench with no power tools at home (he did get the lumber yard to do some jointing and planing, which they will normally do for a fee). Second Edit: Jag, check out this auction it ends in 12 hours, looks like it will go for cheap, and comes with extra blades. I dont know where in the UK you are in relation to it, but if you could snag that I would, it would give you enough ripping ability to handle boards from the hardware store, and you could always resell it for what you paid. Just me .02 again. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 9, 2009 |
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Mar 9, 2009 02:40
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Fine Woodworking also has some plans for a couple of "entry level" benches that I've been considering. One is from their Getting Started in Woodworking series of videos. It is constructed with 2x4's 4x4's, MDF, and some metal rods found at hardware stores. You can check out the plans and watch the videos of them making it here: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/getting-started/season-two.asp More interesting to me, though, is a bench they have that is made entirely from plywood. Now I haven't actually made this, and it does look like it takes some doing, but if you don't have a planer/jointer, this could be the best option. I am considering it for a summer time project, though I did get a nice Grizzly planer for Christmas. Alas, I am derailing. The article claims the plywood bench can be had for less than $250: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ProjectsAndDesign/ProjectsAndDesignArticle.aspx?id=29507 Just a couple more ideas to consider. But yeah I would definitely agree with wormil in that you should start off as basic as you can. I started woodworking about a year ago myself and recall all the grand ideas I had at first. In reality, ended-up having my trusty plywood-on-sawhorses bench serve me well until we moved into a new place that already happened to have a decent bench in the basement. It's all about patience.
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Mar 9, 2009 15:03
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2x4's and 4x4's are the nastiest wood available. Even if you were to follow such plans you would be far better served by buying 2x12's (especially if you have Southern Yellow Pine available) and ripping them down (and then gluing them up in the case of the 4x4's). The result will be much better, less knotty, and less prone to warping. The real decision is if you are going to use hand tools or not. If you are going to be a power tool woodworker, and rout/sand/biscut everything and just make mortises with a mortising machine and tenons with a bandsaw (hah, just kidding, if you go this route you will make your tenons with a table saw), then sure, make a dirt simple roman bench, i.e. slab on some horses, and then spend your money on your power tools. If you are going to use hand tools, or be a blended woodworker and use quite a bit of both, then you need a bench that is made to hold things for hand work, and a roman bench is exceptionally lovely at this task. If you go this route, my advice is to invest time and money into the bench, rather than the collection of power tools listed above. The divergent philosophy on benches here really boils down to "just get started with poor materials and tools" vs. "Take your time to make/buy/build quality things right from the start." I'm not trying to threadcrap, but I know many people with closets/basements full of cheap tools/fixtures/benches they never use, and for the cost of those items, they could have had fewer quality products that would see long term use.
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Mar 10, 2009 00:42
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Morris you're making an assumption that they don't use those tools because they are cheap, it is just as likely they don't use them because not everyone is infatuated with tools or woodworking. I don't disagree with you about the importance of benches but you keep building it up to the point where it kind of becomes a barrier to entry especially for someone with almost no experience who doesn't even know if they will like the hobby. You went to industrial design college so your approach to woodworking is going to be much more direct than the guy who wants a garage hobby on the weekends. So yeah, you need a good bench but you can't build a good bench without some tools and rough bench to work on. The same rough bench can serve for some small projects until you get some skills. I look back on the early projects I built and realize how much I've learned, the best bench in the world wouldn't have made those projects any better or even more fun to build. My shop is actually too small for a good bench so I built one on lockable casters that I can roll out of the way.
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Mar 10, 2009 04:47
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Wormil, who using what tools again? [after I posted I got what you were saying here, no, I specifically know that they do not use those tools because they are inaccurate, difficult to use, gimmicky, and in some cases, too much tool for the job.] The power tool woodworker generally has as much if not more money wrapped up in tools than the hand tool woodworker, except the power tool guy has a higher consumables burn rate by a small to medium margin. You guys are telling him to build a lovely bench, and then use that to build a good bench? I told him to build a pair of nesting sawbenches in the other thread, and to use them to help build the main bench. The difference is the lovely bench will end up in the garbage, while the sawbenches will stick around because they are useful in the long term. I agree he needs tools, if he had a full compliment of power tools, making a good bench would be easier. But it is possible to do it with only a few, or even no power tools and a bit more sweat. Hell if he isn't going to like woodworking, making the sawbenches will let him know, and if so, he isn't out much money. I think folks are not seeing the fact that the things you make for your shop, those are woodworking practice. If my first project is a shoddily made picture frame, I probably wont keep it around. But if I make some functional yet mediocre looking sawbenches, I will learn from my mistakes, but I probably wont throw them out. My schooling btw was about aesthetics, technology, and design. Woodworking hand skills was not something that was even offered. I started at CNC and worked backwards to hand planes. I can operate in either world, but prefer the more manual skills for my personal enjoyment. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Mar 10, 2009 |
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Mar 10, 2009 05:03
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A good workbench doesn't have to be elaborate or a work of art. My workbenches have all been simple 2x4 frames with a sheet of 3/4" MDX screwed on top. And they've all been GREAT! My latest iteration has a 2x2 lip on the end to make it easier to clamp stuff down. I used this workbench for about 7 years. (My wife and I built the 12x12' garden shed/workshop too):  I'd moved most of the tools to the new workshop in my garage when I took this photo, but I had a radial arm saw on the right-hand side of that whose table formed a contiguous bench. Even put a little door in the side of the shed so that I could cut boards too long to fit in the building 
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Mar 10, 2009 11:44
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That Inca band-saw looked good, but Yorkshire is about as far away as you can get from where I live in England without being Scotland! Nevermind though, it's given me an idea of what to look out for. I have taken your advice, and am thinking about plans and ideas for building a pair of sawhorses. So, thanks again all.
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Mar 15, 2009 23:21
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Im another person who is a wood working newbie looking to step it up/get serious. Ive built an aquarium stand for a 30 gallon tank that held up just fine, however, it wasnt by any means completely square. I built it using a circular saw and finding objects to stack and make my own sawhorses out of which... didnt work so well. What would you recommend, a table saw or a miter saw? Ive seen a couple work benches that integrate the workbench into it by recessing the base of the miter saw to allow the work bench to basically be a big support for any long pieces of wood. As far budget, im looking to spend like $200 - $250 on a saw, is that too low, or can I find something semi-decent in that price range? Among other things, I was looking at getting a plunge router as well, any thoughts? Thanks
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Mar 26, 2009 01:54
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$250 is too low for a tablesaw. You could probably get a miter saw in that price ranger but I find miter saws to be more useful for carpentry than woodworking. I would buy a good circular saw before buying a miter saw but then I tend to build furniture over small projects. Maybe split the $250 between a router and a circular saw (or miter if you don't think you'll use a circular saw). Make sure you have a good assortment of hand tools before loading up on power tools. You'll need a few good chisels (probably 3/8 & 3/4 to start, I use the 3/8 most of the time), a good hand saw, a bench plane, sanding blocks, clamps, etc.
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Mar 26, 2009 06:53
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wormil, thanks for the reply - I'll be on the lookout for any decent deals on table saws - Ive noticed there are different "varieties" of table saw - It seems the most common is a contractors table saw, would that suffice in most cases? I will also be going through and getting the hand tools you mentioned; what type of hand saw would you recommend, i've seen Japanese saws talked about quiet a bit.
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Mar 26, 2009 07:02
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There are jobsite saws, designed to be portable which are sometimes also called contractor saws. Then there are contractor saws which are light weight but sturdy tablesaws. The former is probably what you are referring to. I personally wouldn't buy a jobsite saw for woodworking and would expect to pay $600-700 minimum for a decent contractor saw. As GE mentioned, you can also have a band saw centric shop. I don't think one is better than the other but the decision will affect what techniques you use. The tablesaw is much more versatile than the bandsaw but also takes up much more room; OTOH, the bandsaw is less intimidating. Handsaws are such a personal thing. I learned with english (push) saws and japanese style saws drive me crazy although the concept makes more sense. When possible I prefer a bow saw to anything else. With the blade under constant tension you can cut on the push or pull stroke. Whatever floats your boat really. What kind of projects will you be building?
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Mar 26, 2009 07:22
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I actually have a thread in DIY about building a rolling kitchen island for my girlfriends baking equipment. I see myself building things like that, in addition to shelves, end-tables and eventually a stand for my 125 aquarium. Ive always had a real soft spot for country-esque types of furniture and cabinetry, something along the lines of http://roomenvy.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/kitchen53.jpg - I dont know if the "style" of the pieces affects equipment choices as much as the actual piece itself but I figure it couldnt hurt. At this point I dont have $600-$700 to dedicate to a table saw - So any decent alternative is welcomed (I realize that often times there is no substitute for these type of things) - Assuming that alot of my cuts are going to perpendicular i'd like to think that worst come to worse I could always get friendly with a good ol fashioned hand saw and a miter box nullfox fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Mar 26, 2009 |
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Mar 26, 2009 07:39
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If you are going to do a lot of work with sheet goods, rather than solid wood, then even I would steer you towards a table saw. That being said, a table saw is a potentially dangerous tool, and you shouldn't skimp and buy a TS that does not have modern safety features. Like a riving knife. A splitter is NOT a riving knife. The cheapest TS with a riving knife these days is the new granite-topped Ridgid TS that home depot sells. They don't have a floor model in every HD, but you can ask and they can order it for you. Nice thing about the granite is: 1. Heavier than the thin iron castings you would get on a saw of similar cost, so better vibration dampening 2. No rust 3. Stays flat, cast iron likes to creep over time 4. No rust Another option is of course my old favorite inca, with their die cast aluminum tops, but their saws have a weird arbor (20mm on the 10" saw) and they are hard to find, so I would stick with the Ridgid if you want to go the TS route and are in the USA.
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Mar 27, 2009 02:13
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So then it does basically look like $500+ or gtfo...
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Mar 27, 2009 03:09
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WildFoxMedia posted:So then it does basically look like $500+ or gtfo... it is $500 now, or your insurance deductible later, your call
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Mar 27, 2009 15:40
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Thats true - But as I mentioned before, I dont have that kind of cash sitting around at the moment, I guess it just isnt my time to get into Woodworking, time to find another hobby Thanks guys
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Mar 27, 2009 16:55
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GEMorris posted:it is $500 now, or your insurance deductible later, your call I have a $100 table saw, and have never had any scary moments with it. Treat your tools with respect and use them as they're intended. You don't need a $500+ table saw to rip wood.
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Mar 27, 2009 20:22
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optikalus posted:I have a $100 table saw, and have never had any scary moments with it. Treat your tools with respect and use them as they're intended. You don't need a $500+ table saw to rip wood. I have a $200 one and have had no issues with it. I think for the weekend warrior a cheaper model will do just fine. Would I like a better one, sure. Do I think I need a better one, not really.
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Mar 27, 2009 22:20
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JEEVES420 posted:I have a $200 one and have had no issues with it. I think for the weekend warrior a cheaper model will do just fine. Would I like a better one, sure. Do I think I need a better one, not really. Exactly. I'd love to have a table saw that could rip a 3" strip off a 4x8 sheet of ply, but unless you're going to do that every day, its easier to rig up a guide with some clamps and use a circular saw. ripping consistently sized pieces off a smaller board though is no problems for the small / portable table saws.
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Mar 27, 2009 22:59
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Ever notice how you rarely ever hear about how some total newbie cuts their finger off on a table saw? It is always some guy who has been woodworking for 30 years. The reason being, risk exposure. If you use an unsafe tool for an extended period of time, the chance of the tool getting you approaches 1. Safe rips can certainly be made with a $100 harbor freight special. Until that one time when there was an internal knot, or some localized tension, and that wood grabs the side of the blade, or the blade decides it would rather throw the wood back at you than cut it. That's the time you can end up in the hospital, it only takes one time. Riving knives have been standard in europe for years now, and they have finally been required on all new table saw designs (starting this year) and on all table saws sold (Starting next year, or 2011, forgot which) for a very good reason. Splitters do not appropriately guard against kickback, locking pawl or not. Kickback isn't the total threat, what is worse is when you experience kickback, or the beginning of a kickback, and then make the wrong decision about how to deal with it. It is easier to make bad decisions like this on a small table saw, because the solution looks like it is in reach (hey, why not just help the wood through by pulling from the outfeed side of the blade?  )Right at this moment, the cheapest saw with a riving knife is the Ridgid, it will probably not be that way for long, but that is the current situation.
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Mar 28, 2009 01:39
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It's been too long since I've had geometry, or maybe I've stayed up to late, but I need a bit of internet help figuring this one out: I'm making a planter for a small tree that is basically an inverted pyramid. It is 30" high (red line), 30" wide at top (green line), and the base is 20" wide (blue line):  All measurements are to the outside edges. My question is , what is the angle inside the circle? I'm planning to use slats, so I need to know before hand the angle of the outside cut on the miter saw for each slat. Can anyone help?
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Mar 28, 2009 04:00
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Bantaras posted:It's been too long since I've had geometry, or maybe I've stayed up to late, but I need a bit of internet help figuring this one out: 99.46 degrees?
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Mar 28, 2009 06:18
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GEMorris posted:Ever notice how you rarely ever hear about how some total newbie cuts their finger off on a table saw? It is always some guy who has been woodworking for 30 years. The reason being, risk exposure. If you use an unsafe tool for an extended period of time, the chance of the tool getting you approaches 1. Yes and no. Obviously the tablesaw is an inherently dangerous machine but it's also relatively easy to use safely. What is true is that some people are inherently unsafe and get away with it for a long time, then they lose a finger and suddenly preach safety like it's the second coming. Also, a panel saw is better than a tablesaw for cutting sheet goods. GEMorris posted:it is $500 now, or your insurance deductible later, your call Really, enough with the tablesaw bashing.
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Mar 28, 2009 07:18
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wormil posted:Yes and no. Obviously the tablesaw is an inherently dangerous machine but it's also relatively easy to use safely. What is true is that some people are inherently unsafe and get away with it for a long time, then they lose a finger and suddenly preach safety like it's the second coming. He was always always always careful. Yet, one day he got complacent, and lost his thumb. It wasn't until 6 months after he gave me the joiner and I'd used it on several projects that I found out his thumb was still inside it... grover fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Mar 28, 2009 |
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Mar 28, 2009 12:41
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Oh man, losing a thumb to a table saw is one thing (a horrible thing, to be sure), but to a jointer? I can't even put together a mental picture of that, and that fact does not bother me.
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Mar 28, 2009 13:46
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optikalus posted:99.46 degrees? so that would translate to 9.46 degrees on the Miter Saw then ?
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Mar 28, 2009 14:27
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wormil posted:Yes and no. Obviously the tablesaw is an inherently dangerous machine but it's also relatively easy to use safely. What is true is that some people are inherently unsafe and get away with it for a long time, then they lose a finger and suddenly preach safety like it's the second coming. The guy is balking at $500 for a table saw and you are suggesting panel saw? Hey, know what's even better than that? An SCMI Beam saw, or a dual bed Heian CNC router! wormil posted:Really, enough with the tablesaw bashing. Not bashing table saws per se. I'm bashing poorly equipped saws that have not adopted a long proven safety improvement because of the laziness and greed of their manufacturers. If sheet goods are going to be primarily used, you are going to want some sort of circular saw, be it a TS, a rail saw like the festool/dewalt, or a panel saw. grover posted:I found out his thumb was still inside it... Wow, and I was reading this while eating lunch. I'm assuming it was pretty much hamburger and you knew it was his thumb because you were aware of the previous accident?
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Mar 28, 2009 16:47
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GEMorris posted:The guy is balking at $500 for a table saw and you are suggesting panel saw? grover posted:He was always always always careful. Yet, one day he got complacent, and lost his thumb. I get the point you're trying to make and I'm not saying that accidents don't happen but its false to imply that losing a finger is inevitable. Many, many, people use tablesaws (and joiners) safely all their lives without losing digits. Really I'd like to know what the poor guy was doing to lose a thumb. A fingertip I could easily see but a thumb?
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Mar 28, 2009 19:43
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PMan_ posted:Oh man, losing a thumb to a table saw is one thing (a horrible thing, to be sure), but to a jointer? I can't even put together a mental picture of that, and that fact does not bother me. My point is that accidents like this are not inevitable, but experience does not make you immune to a brief moment of stupidity. Unfortunately for me, I need to open the joiner up to make some fine adjustments to the blade height and table alignment, but I'm afraid of what I'll find...
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Mar 28, 2009 21:56
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Anyone want to take a look at this and tell me if there are any obvious flaws or structural problems with it? It's my first time trying to make my own blueprints for something as opposed to using someone else's plans. (Clicky) (Clicky)I can upload the skp somewhere if anyone wants to take a better look. mcrandello fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Mar 28, 2009 |
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Mar 28, 2009 23:05
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wormil posted:Panel saws can be had for half the price of a tablesaw Link? We may be talking about two different things here, but the cheapest panel saws I know of are the Safety-Speed-Cut variety and they are still over $1k wormil posted:I get the point you're trying to make and I'm not saying that accidents don't happen but its false to imply that losing a finger is inevitable. A kickback on a table saw without a riving knife is inevitable, given enough board feet cut, and it can lead to injury or even didgit loss. wormil posted:Many, many, people use tablesaws (and joiners) safely all their lives without losing digits. Really I'd like to know what the poor guy was doing to lose a thumb. A fingertip I could easily see but a thumb? grover posted:It's a non-threatening tool This attitude, that a tool spinning a bit or a sharpened blade is ever non-threatening. But to be honest, that accident probably would not have happened if the jointer had a euro guard, and not a porkchop guard. I loving HATE porkchop guards, they give the illusion of safety while leaving the operator exposed at the most critical point in the entire operation. :rage:
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Mar 28, 2009 23:53
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GEMorris posted:Link? We may be talking about two different things here, but the cheapest panel saws I know of are the Safety-Speed-Cut variety and they are still over $1k Google "panel saw". You can build one for several hundred bucks with the added ability to accept a router.
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Mar 29, 2009 00:55
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wormil posted:Google "panel saw". You can build one for several hundred bucks with the added ability to accept a router. Saety speed cut's cheapest model, $775 http://www.panelpro.com/products.html The Milwaukee panel saw is even more expensive http://shopping.msn.com/prices/6480-20-panel-saw/itemid22065519/?itemtext=itemname:6480-20-panel-saw Those "kits" that are sold are more of a joke than a $200 Lowe's table saw, which is a pretty big joke to start with. I mean, you can make a bandsaw out of $50 in parts and a few sheets of 4x8 ply, but it isn't going to be any good.
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Mar 29, 2009 01:18
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Wow, I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to start a bunch poo poo between you guys. $500 is too much for me at once, I was alright with that being the end of it - Not everyone can do every hobby they want, whenever they want. GEMorris - Stupid question, is it possible to attach riving knife to a cheaper table saw like a $150 Ryobi. I know how to Arc & MIG weld and was thinking that I could possibly buy a new blade guard (Not sure if thats what its called, but the insert on the table that has the slit for the blade) and weld on a DIY riving knife. I have an 18V circular saw, but its weak - I may pickup a nice circular saw and make some guides as wormil mentioned. nullfox fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Mar 29, 2009 |
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Mar 29, 2009 01:24
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WildFoxMedia posted:GEMorris - Stupid question, is it possible to attach riving knife to a cheaper table saw like a $150 Ryobi. I know how to Arc & MIG weld and was thinking that I could possibly buy a new blade guard (Not sure if thats what its called, but the insert on the table that has the slit for the blade) and weld on a DIY riving knife.
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Mar 29, 2009 01:54
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GEMorris posted:...it isn't going to be any good. WildFoxMedia posted:Wow, I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to start a bunch poo poo between you guys. Doesn't amount to much. At the end of the day you're going to use what you can afford just all hobbyists do and sometimes you have to improvise. I learned to woodwork in a school with a nicely designed shop with a full range of tools but that stuff isn't on the menu for home hobbyists; hence the tons of books about shop built jigs, equipment and the variety of kits available to woodworkers. Some woodworkers get so involved making stuff for their shop that they rarely make anything else.
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Mar 29, 2009 02:13
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grover posted:Even the cheapest table saws have riving knives. They don't work, however, when you remove them and blade guard they're attached to. Which you have to for certain projects, but shouldn't just because it gets in the way/is annoying. I think new saws are required to have riving knives, correct? For many years saws came with just splitters which were usually immediately removed along with the blade guard. Mine sits on a shelf somewhere.
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Mar 29, 2009 02:27
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If you had the bt3100 then you could always just get this dealie bob for it: http://www.leestyron.com/sharkryobi.php Unfortunately it sounds like you have the same cheap 10" that I got for 175$ about 4 years ago. Worst saw ever made by anyone anywhere (I just deleted a 3 paragraph rant about how frightening this saw is to use.) If you ever see a used 3100 0r 3000 I've heard nothing but good things about them from the owners but then if they're getting rid of it it's probably worn out... I'll tear off the throat insert on my saw tonight to see if there's even anywhere on there to hang one but I'm doubtful. Also keep in mind if you go welding on it you'll either weaken the plastic housing for the saw from the heat or possibly warp the lovely thin metal parts inside. Mainly it's more effort and money than it's worth for that saw for a variety of reasons. I'd recommend being god-damned careful with the saw and put your effort into making sure each cut you make is as safe as possible. Use the guard when you can, the guard/splitter it comes with isn't even that bad as long as you're just doing 90 degree rips. Make sure you've got an auxiliary fence and feather board for it, make sure you're not going over any more knots than necessary, no "hidden arrows", and then when you get the scratch for a better saw, take all that paranoia with you. Also anyone? I'm mainly concerned that all those through tenons might weaken the structure a bit.
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Mar 29, 2009 02:42
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grover posted:Even the cheapest table saws have riving knives. They don't work, however, when you remove them and blade guard they're attached to. Which you have to for certain projects, but shouldn't just because it gets in the way/is annoying. These are not riving knives, they are splitters, know the difference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riving_knife
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Mar 29, 2009 02:48
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mcrandello posted:Also anyone? I'm mainly concerned that all those through tenons might weaken the structure a bit. Well the ones where the rails supporting the table meet the frame certainly will, you have almost nothing left to support that mortise in the frame. The muntins on the front (the mid-panel rails) really break the whole thing up by not being on the same line, try some half-lap joints there rather than M&Ting everything. Half laps are very strong unless they are in direct tension in the axis they mate, or unless there is a racking or twisting force along that same axis, neither are the case here. This would allow you to have your horizontal muntins appear visually as a single beam traversing the entire front of the bar, rather than the odd stair stepping that is going on now. WildFoxMedia posted:Wow, I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to start a bunch poo poo between you guys. Man, I busted in here like a bull in a toe stomping contest, you didn't have anything to do with that. WildFoxMedia posted:question, is it possible to attach riving knife to a cheaper table saw No, the riving knife rides up and down with the blade, whereas a splitter stays in the same location. Most any saw that wasn't designed for one will not have any room on the trunion for one to be cobbled on. I also don't recommend "cobbling" safety equipment in the first place.
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Mar 29, 2009 03:03
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