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It really depends. The cyberware smartlink would have a direct neural interface (DNI) and therefore would have no trouble issuing the command by whatever means it was connected to the gun- wireless signal, skinlink, cyber-safety or a corded connection through a datajack. If it is merely an image enhancement type smartlink with no sort of DNI between the user and the smartlink or weapon then presumably it couldn't do so, although I'd probably allow it on the rationale that the user can set it up to make some sort of specific and unnatural eye gesture issue the appropriate command. As to commlinks themselves they can take all kinds of different input types- 'trodes (which you may have missed but are indeed an indirect electrode-brain connection- previous editions made these worse than hardwired systems but apparently the technology has improved) and datajack connections let you get a DNI connection, but it is perfectly possible to access them with just some kind of AR interface (Imagelink for example) and a physical or virtual keyboard (e.g. gloves set up to let you type anywhere, etc). Since 'trodes are extremely common, cheap, uninvasive and unobtrusive they are likely to be the preferred method of commlink access for most people.
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Oct 21, 2009 21:05
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LGD posted:Since 'trodes are extremely common, cheap, uninvasive and unobtrusive they are likely to be the preferred method of commlink access for most people. I believe I read in one of the books that they can be lined inside of a hat or a headband or even a wig, so you could just tell them to buy those and link them to their comlink as then you can issues commands to the comlink to control the smartlink via wifi.
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Oct 21, 2009 22:33
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So I made a Free Spirit for a game, that unfortunately didn't get off the ground, but while making the character I found myself with some questions. I asked some questions at another forum but the answers I received seemed vague and uninformative, or simply surprising. Since the charactet had been intended to be used on SA I thought I would ask the community's opinion. So: 1. When a free spirit of the possession variety possesses a vessel do they use the vessel's stats plus their force like usual for a spirit, or do they use the vessel's stats plus their own stats? 2. For a free spirit how do you determine what powers in the free spirit powers' side bar are meant for which tradition? 3. What Karma generating/harvesting methods seem resonable? What is too excessive? An exmple I have heard is selecting a group of 20+ mages as a contact, perhaps for later initiation, and then making a pact such as drain pact, with them to harvest 1 karma each every month, or theoretically shorter intervals/larger karma investments per interval. This seems like something a GM would frown on, although a spirit without the Friendship pact will have no normal means to gain any karma. 4. How would you suggest actually building a free spirit under the normal 400 BP method?
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Oct 21, 2009 23:21
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Fenarisk posted:I would only allow my players to do so if they had the implanted comm-link. It's like .01 essence anyway and I don't see any reason for non-magic users NOT to have their commlink setup this way.
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Oct 22, 2009 06:53
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Zereth posted:Black Ice/Hammer? NOT walking around with the ability to have your brain hacked all the time? Not to mention that unless you have a Cyberskull it's a surgical implant, meaning you have to pay the 2000 all over again if you want to mod it at all? Hell, a GM could plausibly charge you 4k, 2 for the surgery to remove it and 2 again to re-install it. I'd say doing it with glasses and no DNI would be fine, just make up some  about a GUI in the lens and IR retinal tracking if you really want an in-game explanation.
404GoonNotFound fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Oct 22, 2009 |
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Oct 22, 2009 06:57
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Fenarisk posted:I would only allow my players to do so if they had the implanted comm-link. It's like .01 essence anyway and I don't see any reason for non-magic users NOT to have their commlink setup this way. There are a number of reasons to not do that. The first is to avoid being mistaken for a Technomancer by the general public (always a bad thing.) The second is that upgrades to implanted commlinks are basically impossible, you have to get surgery to have the thing removed and/or upgrades installed. The third is repairs, again, if something breaks (you get hit by EMP, a worm fries your gear, etc) you've got to let a cyberdoc crack open your skull and fish it out so you can get it replaced. The fourth is cost, a normal commlink is always cheaper than the equivalent implanted version because of the implanting surcharge, for a hacker on a budget this is the difference between being merely good, and excellent. Finally, a smartlink implant REQUIRES an image link, but if installed in an eye, is operating off DNI just like any other cybernetic vision modification. If your GM is going to be a total dick and require you get more cyberware to actually use a piece of cyberware, hit him upside the head with the drat book, he deserves it. If he insists you need another link to the gun, get a trode net, stick it in your hat/helmet, there's no penalty for trode nets anymore.
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Oct 22, 2009 07:06
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Hey, I AM the GM here, and I don't want to make a players life hard - just trying to make sure I conform to general "hard" SR tech, as I like that sort of thing  So the general consensus is that you CAN use a smartlink without getting a DNI or implanted commlink, for example by connecting your commlink to your head by trodes and going wireless, or jury-rigging your image link to accept eye gestures for the smartlink?
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Oct 22, 2009 15:29
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Zereth posted:Black Ice/Hammer? NOT walking around with the ability to have your brain hacked all the time? 404GoonNotFound posted:Hell, a GM could plausibly charge you 4k, 2 for the surgery to remove it and 2 again to re-install it. Kwyndig posted:The first is to avoid being mistaken for a Technomancer by the general public (always a bad thing.) Kwyndig posted:The second is that upgrades to implanted commlinks are basically impossible, you have to get surgery to have the thing removed and/or upgrades installed. Kwyndig posted:The third is repairs, again, if something breaks (you get hit by EMP, a worm fries your gear, etc) you've got to let a cyberdoc crack open your skull and fish it out so you can get it replaced. Kwyndig posted:The fourth is cost, a normal commlink is always cheaper than the equivalent implanted version because of the implanting surcharge, for a hacker on a budget this is the difference between being merely good, and excellent. McGravin fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 22, 2009 |
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Oct 22, 2009 16:02
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Tias posted:So the general consensus is that you CAN use a smartlink without getting a DNI or implanted commlink, for example by connecting your commlink to your head by trodes and going wireless, or jury-rigging your image link to accept eye gestures for the smartlink? To add something to this discussion, I pretty sure, if not in Augmentation, then in previous books like Man & Machine and Cybertechnology, that Smartlinks are a spin-off technology from Simsense. I know that M&M has even a breakdown on how the Smartlink cyberware package works, including using a limited Simsense rig. So, if you can use a Simsense rig (or can't, because you bought that Simsense Sensitivity or Euphoria or whatever disadvantage), then you could use a smartgun link. Also, you can get an image link or a smartgun-only image link through goggles, monocles, contact lenses.
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Oct 22, 2009 17:27
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Young Freud posted:To add something to this discussion, I pretty sure, if not in Augmentation, then in previous books like Man & Machine and Cybertechnology, that Smartlinks are a spin-off technology from Simsense. I know that M&M has even a breakdown on how the Smartlink cyberware package works, including using a limited Simsense rig. So, if you can use a Simsense rig (or can't, because you bought that Simsense Sensitivity or Euphoria or whatever disadvantage), then you could use a smartgun link. So if you have a simsense rig you can smart-link? That makes sense. But having a "smartgun-only" image link brings up the whole dilemma again: How can you issue a "mental command" to eject a clip if the only connection to your gun is a pair of eye glasses with an image-link? It makes no sense, unless you let the glasses register som sort of eye gesture as a valid command.
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Oct 22, 2009 17:55
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Tias posted:But having a "smartgun-only" image link brings up the whole dilemma again: How can you issue a "mental command" to eject a clip if the only connection to your gun is a pair of eye glasses with an image-link? It makes no sense, unless you let the glasses register som sort of eye gesture as a valid command. Originally, back in the previous editions, smartgun goggles only added a +1 modifier instead of +2. In essence, you were plugging your smartgun into your smartgun googles and having the googles specify targets by using eye gestures, painting reticles of where your gun was aimed at, etc. I still think that the mental commands required a full smartgun link in the previous books, one of the many advantages having an implanted smartlink over using goggles. In fourth edition, they simplified greatly by giving you the same modifier regardless if it's built into wearable optics or implants and that trodes or skinlinks can transfer data to and from the gun, you, and your glasses. That "limited simsense rig" I mentioned earlier could now be built into your contacts, given the advanced technology in 4th edition.
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Oct 22, 2009 18:21
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Tias posted:So if you have a simsense rig you can smart-link? That makes sense. Master-rule: We could argue Trodes 'n Orks all night long, but the two other players at the table came here to play. I'm the GM and I say it behaves this way, pass the Mountain Dew... 
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Oct 22, 2009 19:24
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Here's my last thoughts on this whole subject: Shadowrun is a complicated enough game without requiring players to jump through hoops with their cyberware when there's nothing in the RAW to support some of these half-baked ideas you people are coming up with. Just let the goddamn PC buy a cybereye, shove a smartlink in it, and give him the bonus plus the Free Action stuff, anything else is being needlessly complicated and is honestly a dick move unsupported by published material. There are plenty of dick moves that ARE supported by published material, like Essence loss for Deadly wounds, that you can use to screw over the players if you really have to gently caress with them. Alternatively, if you really want to make the players confused and have chargen take hours, play third edition and use ALL the optional rules. Man & Machine was particularly bad about this, since you had to buy DNI ROUTERS in order to get your cyberware to talk to each other.
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Oct 22, 2009 19:47
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McGravin posted:Just having an implanted commlink does not mean you are permanently stuck in full VR. You can go AR and still be protected from biofeedback. I'm not saying "don't take it ever", but that 5K doesn't count the enormous cost of actually SECURING it. It's not loving worth it if you're not a hacker-type because for you it's just an spiffy iPhone.
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Oct 22, 2009 19:59
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Fenarisk posted:I would only allow my players to do so if they had the implanted comm-link. It's like .01 essence anyway and I don't see any reason for non-magic users NOT to have their commlink setup this way. You mean Datajack? Because an implanted commlink is .2 essence. And I think it's implied (if not flat-out stated somewhere. I'm too lazy to dig through my books) that you need a direct neural link to actually command a smartgun to do anything (Change Gun Mode/Fire/Eject Clip/Change Shotgun Choke/Etc) other than throw up a targeting reticle. Which would mean an implanted commlink, a datajack that runs to an external commlink, or trode set-up, as opposed to a pair of AR gloves/glasses.
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Oct 22, 2009 20:51
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Well, as long as it can be done with 'trodes I'm satisfied. It seems like needlessly invasive to NEED a DNI or implanted comm-link to control smartgun mechanisms.
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Oct 22, 2009 22:11
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Tias posted:Well, as long as it can be done with 'trodes I'm satisfied. It seems like needlessly invasive to NEED a DNI or implanted comm-link to control smartgun mechanisms. Think about the national and corp militaries in SR. They obviously would have smartlinks out the wazoo, because you're doubling the effectiveness of your average soldier or security guard. But, that also means every time a grunt gets demobbed you're either having him walk off with an advanced military targeting computer or pulling an expensive hunk of unsterile and thus un-reusable cyberware and paying him for his rest and recuperation. Yeah, it's better to use 'trodes or skinlinks for stuff like that.
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Oct 22, 2009 22:35
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Young Freud posted:an expensive hunk of unsterile and thus un-reusable cyberware
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Oct 23, 2009 03:33
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Zereth posted:... did you miss the options for used cyberware? Do you think the military or a corporation would reuse cyberware? I understand the market but ewwwww....
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Oct 23, 2009 03:55
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Young Freud posted:Do you think the military or a corporation would reuse cyberware? I understand the market but ewwwww.... This is what military surplus is. Something too well used, too old, or obsolete? Sell it to the civilians or other armies. Edit: Or for a corp, plug it into some of your workers. They quit, die or whatever, you pull it out and put it into the next guy(probably with some very sloppy surgery for both input and removal) MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Oct 23, 2009 |
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Oct 23, 2009 04:12
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Young Freud posted:Do you think the military or a corporation would reuse cyberware? I understand the market but ewwwww....
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Oct 23, 2009 04:16
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Young Freud posted:Think about the national and corp militaries in SR. They obviously would have smartlinks out the wazoo, because you're doubling the effectiveness of your average soldier or security guard. But, that also means every time a grunt gets demobbed you're either having him walk off with an advanced military targeting computer or pulling an expensive hunk of unsterile and thus un-reusable cyberware and paying him for his rest and recuperation. It isn't really an advanced military targeting computer- it's a widely available gun accessory that can be purchased by anyone who can get a gun license, it involves no especially powerful hardware, and it costs an average consumer a total of a thousand nuyen for parts and labor. This is a very small cost relative to the expense of training and maintaining a security guard or soldier and given the abusive labor practices of the 6th world (or modern world) could probably be deducted from their salary over time. The 500 nuyen price difference between an external smartlink and the cyberware version is hardly insurmountable, especially given that the 1000 nuyen price will be lower from a corporate perspective (bulk orders, company doctors doing the implantation) and has some distinct advantages in terms of actually being a DNI, perpetual readiness, inventory management and loss/damage prevention, ability to work with a cheap cyber-safety implant to guarantee security from hackers, etc. There are plenty of reasons to expect many entities to opt for non-surgical smartgun options, but it's a very reasonable and cost-effective investment to make in your employees (which increases loyalty) over the expected lifetimes of their employment contracts. A non-recoverable equipment expense of 1000 nuyen isn't much to worry about for someone you expect to be paying 40,000/year over 5 or more years and equipping with actual military hardware, and if you can subtract part of the cost from their salary then so much the better. Hell, given a smartlink's ability to simulate gunfire you'd probably save at least that much in practice ammunition alone, especially if you mandate people put in a certain amount of time off-hours.
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Oct 23, 2009 08:28
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The cost of a smartgun system is a drop in the bucket for your average corporate security division, rolled in with training and equipment costs required of any new hire. It's probably part of a package of headware that gets installed in one go, along with the implanted commlink, datajack, company standard cybereyes and -ears, and the obligatory cortex bomb.
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Oct 23, 2009 16:36
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IMJack posted:The cost of a smartgun system is a drop in the bucket for your average corporate security division, rolled in with training and equipment costs required of any new hire. There are actually cyberware suites (bundle packages) you can get in Augmentation that include Smartlinks (Lone Star SWAT, Urban Kshatriya, although the latter is outside of a starting PC's reach without perks).
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Oct 24, 2009 03:50
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This is true. Plus the bundles are great things. Save a bit of essence and money getting your basic cyber-gear in! Also, is anyone planning on running another Shadowrun PbP here? OR can we at least get a group together where all but one or two people involved don't suddenly dissapear from the face of the Earth? Edit: Well, I finished one of the last parts of STALKER SR(there's still bits left), so given I can get a bunch of Toxx Clause oaths that players won't dick out(given Real Life doesn't suddenly poo poo on them), I'd be willing to run it or upload the files, as well as giving some resources for anyone interested in running it. ReEdit: Motherfucking gently caress. Computer just crashed, corrupted my primary save for the STaLKER stuff. I've still got the old file, but it's lacking weapon descriptions and a bunch of the details for monsters, anomalies, and artifacts. Working on re-updating it, but if you want it you'll have to settle for something that isn't entirely complete. Another Edit: Asked TFR's help to get my weapon prices back, as I struggle to remember the other 21+ guns I had listed and now have lost the stats for. With any luck whatsoever, I'll be able to post a re-completed version of the file tommorrow. MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Oct 24, 2009 |
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Oct 24, 2009 04:20
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MohawkSatan posted:This is true. Plus the bundles are great things. Save a bit of essence and money getting your basic cyber-gear in! I sort of hope my players will start posting, otherwise, I'm up for restarting!
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Oct 24, 2009 11:56
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I'm being a bad player and was waiting for someone else to reply first :/
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Oct 24, 2009 12:01
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The General posted:I'm being a bad player and was waiting for someone else to reply first :/ I'd encourage you to do so now, but I can't really run with one player. If you see Lighttigersoul online, try to ask if he's still in, then I'll email IP in the meantime.
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Oct 24, 2009 13:30
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Tias posted:I'd encourage you to do so now, but I can't really run with one player. If you see Lighttigersoul online, try to ask if he's still in, then I'll email IP in the meantime. I'm still in, just in the middle of my work week right now, and was recovering from illness before that.
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Oct 24, 2009 16:25
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Cool. Post away when you get around to it, then I'll update.
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Oct 25, 2009 19:44
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It sucks to only play PnP once a month, but this Sunday is the second game of Shadowrun for my group. They all liked it although I don't know how much they'll remember the rules, let alone be a little smoother at them, but I'd like some suggestions on sprucing up my game. Leaving off last time, the group's hacker contact commissioned them for a job as a repayment for a huge favor he did them last job (the group has no hacker otherwise). The hacker wants the group to destroy a rival hacker's facility, humiliating him but not killing him so he can savor the smugness. Now, the hacker has his own server farm and secure facility on the outskirts of Seattle, so for the first time the players are going to be out and away from the hustle and bustle of cramped Seattle and into more wastelands. This is where I see logical complications to the Run: 1) Being the outer limits past Seattle proper, I'd assume some sort of mad-max style street gang would consider it their turf, and would be in the way of the players somehow. Maybe a toll, or maybe they just don't like people blowing up poo poo in their neck of the woods. 2) The hacker is going to have plenty of drones, but I know the weapons specialist is using his demolitions skill to get in to most places. Other than drones, my thought was to have the hacker actually hire another group of runners for protection. 3) The team has already talked about how to steal some info to make the mission more profitable. I'm thinking if they bring it up to their hacker contact he can give them some sort of link to just plug in and steal poo poo. If the players complete the normal mission the hacker contact loyalty goes up by 1, if they give him the stolen info his connection goes up by 1 (especially since a rival hacker will be taken out of the scene). 4) I'd like another complication but I'm not sure what. Other than the hacker defenses, the opposing runners, and the gangers, it may be enough. Would any sort of Lone Star patrol be out that far? For that matter, at what distance can I be from Seattle before explosions and violence start becoming an issue for closer denizens/lone star/corps?
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Oct 26, 2009 16:43
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How far outside Seattle are we talking about here? Remember, if you go north of U.S. Route 2 in Everett, south of Fort Lewis, east of Puget Sound or west of the Redmond barrens, you're in Salish-Shidhe, which is another country. In fact, they'll need passes to get out of Seattle. They will likely run into either the elven Sinsearch or the anti-Anglo Cascade Crow tribal militas for general complications or the SSC unified military if they really gently caress up.
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Oct 26, 2009 20:06
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Wow I guess I better read better, for some reason I imagined a few miles of wasteland as a border between the areas you talked about. As for getting out of Seattle I didn't think of the passes thing either, poo poo  Are there are well-known undeveloped districts of Seattle, maybe a rural dumping ground or something where this facility would be as well as gangers?
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Oct 26, 2009 20:20
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Well, there's Redmond barrens, which is the closest you'll come to an honest-to-god wasteland in Seattle. There was a nuclear meltdown at some point in it's history, which earned it the name Glow City.
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Oct 26, 2009 20:33
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Young Freud posted:Well, there's Redmond barrens, which is the closest you'll come to an honest-to-god wasteland in Seattle. There was a nuclear meltdown at some point in it's history, which earned it the name Glow City. The Redmond barrens are a gang-controlled slum, but you still get the basic utility services such as power, water, and Matrix, even if they're patched together and ramshackle (and you pay your bills to the mafia instead of the power company). In Puyallup, you're lucky to find even a road to drive on, and other utilities are out of the question. McGravin fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Oct 26, 2009 |
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Oct 26, 2009 21:45
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Either Barrens'll work though, just depends on how "remote" you want "remote" to be and how secure you think the guy's facility would be. But both are technically Seattle, so you shouldn't have problems with border patrol unless they really go off track. Concerning him hiring other runners - sure, it might make sense for him to have one or two guys over to hang out, or be paying a gang for protection, but a full-on team should probably be reserved for if he gets wind there's actually an attack coming. Either way, for the second session you're better off using squad rules or reduced BP runners (320/360) instead of full characters for the opponents. That's just my two cents, though, so feel free to balance it against your players as best you know how.
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Oct 26, 2009 23:18
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I have a "Is Shadowrun Right For Me?" question. Right now I'm running a Fallout game using the Fallout PNP rules, which are loyal to the game but convoluted and painful to work with. Right now the characters are playing through Fallout 1 [none of them have played the game itself] and are playing very scared, avoiding combat and anything dangerous as much to avoid combat itself as because of the obvious dangers. We're planning on doing Fallout 2 when we finish though. How well will the Shadowrun system work with starting a low-tech game that will progress as the characters get deeper intertwined with civilization, Starting out as tribals with spears and pipe rifles, and eventually making its way into heavy weapons/cyberware/power armour?
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Oct 27, 2009 02:35
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I think Shadowrun, as written, would actually work pretty damned well. You'd have to improv somethings, but over all it'd definately work.
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Oct 27, 2009 02:52
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Hmhgh I'd tentatively disagree. Much as I like Shadowrun, I really think the rules are a bit of a mess and the main reason to use them is if you're also using the great setting, because they do fit pretty well. If convoluted is bad for you, you don't want to look at the page of 27 different ranged combat modifiers, or 24 different combinations of lighting penalties (though some of these might be reduced in a Fallout game if you don't use some of the options like Ultrasound vision). The movement rules are messy too, and the Initiative Pass system, where some people get more turns than others is... a big topic for discussion but not good for a Fallout game in my opinion (or any game where you don't want some PCs sitting around for 2-3 turns while other PCs do the combat thing). So to run Shadowrun for Fallout, you'd be taking out: Species, magic, most of the cyberware, the matrix, rigging, and if you're starting as tribals, you're also taking out the equipment part of character creation, so you're left with a fairly okay system of Stats+Skills+some qualities that probably has too many modifiers. Pared down, it could be suitable, I think, like if you reduced the modifiers to "good conditions, +2!" and "bad conditions, -2!" but if that could be done with the other system you're using, maybe stay with that?
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Oct 27, 2009 03:11
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Actually, one other mark against using Shadowrun rules in a Fallout setting is that level-up is going to be pretty boring. In Shadowrun, the fun of advancement is: -getting more init passes -learning new spells -initiating (magical ritual to be more awesome) -binding spirits -binding sprites (computer spirits) -binding permanent spells -getting new weapons -installing new cyberware There aren't really any qualities that are out of reach at the start of the game (like Perks in the Fallout system), and stats typically only improve 2-3 points throughout the standard campaign. So with the Shadowrun elements taken out, advancement will look like: -slightly higher dice pools (going from maybe 8d6 at the start to 12d6 at the end of the game-- a difference of about 1 success on average) -new equipment (and it will work pretty well on this front: you can simulate the climb through technology pretty well) -(and possibly, if you want to include it) some Cyberware So I'd say that if it's more feasible to simplify the system you're using now, then go with that over modding a whole bunch out of Shadowrun. That said I haven't really taken a good look at the Fallout PnP rules and they might be a total mess.
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Oct 27, 2009 10:44
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