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Diabetic posted:My point is, is there some divine influence that isn't all about the God Hand loving up the world but something that wants a positive outcome despite the utterly depressing poo poo storm the entire world is having to deal with? While we the readers are privy to a lot of the opportunistic things Griffith has done to achieve his goals, Miura is clearly playing both sides in his story writing. Do people want this horrible world that is represented in the dark side of the astral realm? The people desire a savior, to bring it out of the Reason that is attributed in the political and ambitious machinations of man. Of course, maybe the people are signing up for more than they bargained for, just wishing for something to fix their lives, instead of making it better on their own. Volume 33 has a nice aside with a Kushan who has defected to the Band of the Hawk, and the Bakiraka sovereign, that emphasizes this philosophical duality. Like Guts, Silat's philosophy could be summed up in struggle, "Is it right to yield oneself to something inscrutable?" Silat Snipe 
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Feb 18, 2010 13:11
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Gets even more suspicious if you take into account that Guts own a Behelit, and actually has people dear to him now (who follow him as a leader, as well). Is it his? ...or is it Puck's?!
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Feb 18, 2010 16:33
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Zorak posted:But seeing as how Guts and Skull Knight were both key in Griffith's resurrection/ the beginning of the new world, it may be that they're not truly outside of anything, but rather key pieces doing their own thing because that's what they were orchestrated for from the first place. This is likely the correct answer. Guts is still under causality, The Skull Knight and Flora are pretty savvy, but is likely wrong on the issue of the brand bringing Guts outside the flow of Fate. Even the Godhand get surprised by events, so it would not be unlikely for mortals to be incorrect when the omniscient beings in the story get startled. It's likely that Guts and Skull Knight have a fate that supersedes the branding. If it were not for Guts disposing of countless Apostles, The Skull Knight would not have had the behelit needed to create the Sword of Resonance and then create the opening to the new world. Femto literally said he was waiting for the Skull Knight to make the attack. Meaning it was fated to occur. Since the change over could the world now be outside the confines of Fate? Who knows. We'll likely never get a real decisive answer.
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Feb 19, 2010 01:00
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Silat is pretty awesome I hope he joins Gutts some day.
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Feb 19, 2010 01:06
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I guess the one thing I don't understand so far is that Griffith's main dream was to have his own kingdom. But as Femto he's basically all-powerful and fuckoff. Wouldn't ruling over a kingdom of 'mere' humans not seem as big a deal then? That's my biggest gripe, so far, I guess.
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Feb 19, 2010 06:27
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mune posted:I guess the one thing I don't understand so far is that Griffith's main dream was to have his own kingdom. But as Femto he's basically all-powerful and fuckoff. Wouldn't ruling over a kingdom of 'mere' humans not seem as big a deal then? That's my biggest gripe, so far, I guess. They've shown the Apostles to generally still be pretty attached to their human lives and ambitions, at least at first. Doesn't really seem to apply to the other Godhand members, but they've been around a lot longer than Griffith / Femto.
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Feb 19, 2010 07:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:They've shown the Apostles to generally still be pretty attached to their human lives and ambitions, at least at first. Doesn't really seem to apply to the other Godhand members, but they've been around a lot longer than Griffith / Femto. While that makes sense, remember on the Hill of Swords when Griffith- after being reborn, went to see if he still cared about Caska/Guts, and found out he didn't? People seem to be nothing more than insects to him. So he wants to be the ruler of an anthill? I guess I'm just trying to see where Miura's going with this.
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Feb 19, 2010 07:51
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mune posted:While that makes sense, remember on the Hill of Swords when Griffith- after being reborn, went to see if he still cared about Caska/Guts, and found out he didn't? Thaaaat's not really what happened
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Feb 19, 2010 08:36
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YodaTFK posted:Becoming? When did it stop being fun? I realize there was a lack of focus on Guts and company for a while there but the Falconia poo poo was amazing. It went from revolting juvenile poo poo to trainwreck fascinating to intriguing guilty pleasure to violent awesome fun. I'm literally talking from the first volume to now, though.
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Feb 19, 2010 15:50
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OnimaruXLR posted:Thaaaat's not really what happened To expand on this, Griffith/Femto went to the hill since it's where all the graves were, he wanted to see if killing them (The original Band of the Hawk) to further his ambition bothered him, it didn't. He saves Caska from the falling rocks remember, though whether this means he cares about her, or is just keeping after her to piss Guts off is anyone's guess.
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Feb 19, 2010 16:24
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Diabetic posted:Always nice to hear another opinion on this, going to Skull Knight site goes so deep into metaphysics that it is hard to follow. Of course there is. You should burn, you faithless heretic. The Hawk basically became their Jesus. Sometimes I even think Griffith has some sort of hidden agenda and will end up killing the other god hands so he can rule alone. I mean, he has nothing against doing good for others as long as it doesn't affect his plans. nerdz fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 19, 2010 |
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Feb 19, 2010 17:30
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Revdomezehis posted:To expand on this, Griffith/Femto went to the hill since it's where all the graves were, he wanted to see if killing them (The original Band of the Hawk) to further his ambition bothered him, it didn't. He saves Caska from the falling rocks remember, though whether this means he cares about her, or is just keeping after her to piss Guts off is anyone's guess. Welp there's a definite instance where reading comprehension has completely failed me. I blame it on the marathon sessions at which I read the books, and I suspect this came on the tail end of one of those. Thanks for clearing it up, although I really still don't see why Griffith is so set on just a kingdom.
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Feb 20, 2010 03:30
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mune posted:Welp there's a definite instance where reading comprehension has completely failed me. I blame it on the marathon sessions at which I read the books, and I suspect this came on the tail end of one of those. Thanks for clearing it up, although I really still don't see why Griffith is so set on just a kingdom. His entire human life was defined by the abuse of power and class on the part of nobles - politically, sexually, pretty much any way you can look at it. I don't think it's that strange that as such he would want to remake the world in his image (and since he sees himself as the savior of mankind, the deaths of companions who had shown themselves as willing to die for him anyways isn't really that much of an issue.)
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Feb 20, 2010 03:47
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I still don't buy into the whole causality stuff. Mainly because Muira, like any good writer, will never outright say the point he is trying the make. So I put far less faith in what the story says than what the story shows. The story follows Guts, not Griffith, and Guts the complete antithesis of fate. Guts has been challenged by everything including hell and his own soul. The message of Guts is you make your own destiny. If fate actually mattered to the story, the Guts would died too many times in the past. But the fact he that can kill immortal creatures goes to say that maybe supernatural concepts like fate aren't immutable. Guts is like the dumb stubborn side of human nature. He's just too mean to lose. Griffith is the imaginative side. He believed he could win and thus he did. They are basically the different sides of the same coin. I don't view Griffith as a bad guy at all. He simply was presented with an fantasy inspired deal with the devil instead of having his fate (and the band of the Hawk's) slowly played out. If he anything he has already escapted fate, much like Guts. He should have died a cripple. But because this is a fantasy story and it would be totally boring to have him waited on by Caska (like the story explicitly showed), Muira allowed the character to live on. Because its more interesting to have a story with devils and resurrection than reality. And anyways, Guts is the reason why Griffith used to the behelit. Guts rode ahead like he always does and engaged Griffith first, which lead to all the Hawks entering the v0rtex. If Griffith could have talked, he would have told Guts to not touch him. The 'go ahead first' passionate behavior was already explored via Caska admonishing Guts about it a long time ago. Guts and Griffith's nature or ambition lead the situation. But knowing Japanese writers, this is just what they call karma and Griffith will probably still die just like he did before. Not because he's a bad guy but because his actions lead to a path of self-destruction. And therefore, Guts would probably survive. The only reason question is what of Caska and their son.
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Feb 21, 2010 02:54
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Revdomezehis posted:To expand on this, Griffith/Femto went to the hill since it's where all the graves were, he wanted to see if killing them (The original Band of the Hawk) to further his ambition bothered him, it didn't. He saves Caska from the falling rocks remember, though whether this means he cares about her, or is just keeping after her to piss Guts off is anyone's guess. Griffith was actually shocked by his reaction there. You see it on his face as he flies off. Not gonna spoil this since it happened like a decade ago. Edit: Temple, I think Guts/Caska's son is already playing a big role since he is the physical body that Griffith inhabits right now, what I just said above caused a different outcome had it been Guts fighting just Femto. We'll see but I don't want a cop out ending where Guts can only kill Griffy-poo because his son makes that fish face and stares with his one good eye inside Griffith.
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Feb 21, 2010 11:03
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Diabetic posted:Griffith was actually shocked by his reaction there. You see it on his face as he flies off. Not gonna spoil this since it happened like a decade ago. If anything, it would be Caska who kills Griffith in that scenario. Guts has listened to our resident abortion counselor: The Skull Knight, from the start and has tried to smash or throw him at any chance. Also that kid on the beach has heavily been implied to have some relation to both Guts and Caska.
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Feb 21, 2010 23:04
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YouTuber posted:Also that kid on the beach has heavily been implied to have some relation to both Guts and Caska. My guess as to the kid on the beach is that he is the "true" soul/appearance of their child, before Griffith corrupted/used him as a catalyst for his reincarnation.
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Feb 22, 2010 02:24
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The child was corrupted in Caska's womb. This poo poo starts to very loving deep because Guts became like Gambino and Caska became like Shizu. But the beach episode showed that Guts, like always, learns from his experience and accepted the child. The child was a demon but it was reborn, just like Griffith, when the egg demon resurrected Griffith. I don't quite understand the events of the rebirth though. I can't really understand if the child and new Griffith are actually physically tied or just coincidentally resurrected together. Either way would make sense.
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Feb 22, 2010 02:59
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temple posted:I still don't buy into the whole causality stuff. Mainly because Muira, like any good writer, will never outright say the point he is trying the make. IIRC he actually did. There's a lost chapter that Miura keeps out of publications because he believes that it gives way too much away, and IIRC it basically confirms what people are saying. Haven't read it in awhile though.
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Feb 22, 2010 04:37
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NovemberMike posted:IIRC he actually did. There's a lost chapter that Miura keeps out of publications because he believes that it gives way too much away, and IIRC it basically confirms what people are saying. Haven't read it in awhile though. So I've never heard of this, any more info on it?
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Feb 22, 2010 04:48
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http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Chapter Biiiig spoilers. Read at your own risk.
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Feb 22, 2010 06:22
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Thank you sir.
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Feb 22, 2010 06:28
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I read that some time ago, and don't recall much of it other than the translation at the time tossed around the word "idea" a lot.
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Feb 22, 2010 06:29
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That summary there is a really bad interpretation of the dialogue, as a note. Don't follow that wiki entry at all.
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Feb 22, 2010 06:52
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So after reading the lost chapter I had this thought: If this "God" or Idea of Evil controls destiny is he the only one? The way I see it is that each of the God Hand must have experienced a similar "vision." So with that in mind if Griffith was granted the power to control destiny through this I wander if the others were also given control over similar "aspects?"[For lack of a better term] Any thoughts?
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Feb 22, 2010 07:52
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Zorak posted:That summary there is a really bad interpretation of the dialogue, as a note. Don't follow that wiki entry at all. Gonna have to agree with this. I'd see about posting my copy of the lost chapter, but don't know if you think it'd be breaking the rules or not.
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Feb 22, 2010 07:58
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Slan got the coveted power of turning any land mass into fleshy tits. Though in practice this works better on hills and troll entrails than most other things.
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Feb 22, 2010 07:59
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liquidus696 posted:So after reading the lost chapter I had this thought: If this "God" or Idea of Evil controls destiny is he the only one? The way I see it is that each of the God Hand must have experienced a similar "vision." So with that in mind if Griffith was granted the power to control destiny through this I wander if the others were also given control over similar "aspects?"[For lack of a better term] Any thoughts? Each member of the God Hand has control over a certain aspect of the human psyche and human existence. Slann controls lust and desire, Ubik seems to have powers over illusions and delusions, Conrad has control over disease, plague, and possibly just afflictions on human life in general. Femto doesn't control fate so much as he just embodies and controls human ambition; the observations and control of fate seems to fall into the territory of Void. As to the Idea, keep in mind the God Hand are ultimately the instruments of the Idea. In each exercising their own will as they see fit, they are in turn executing the will of the Idea of Evil and the will of the unconscious of mankind. It is mankind which desired evil, fate, and God, and so gave birth to the Idea of Fate. The Idea of Fate in turn shaped every element of the people who became the God Hand, such that they by nature and orchestration are quite as their name implies, the hands of God. Their desires, their wishes, are the same as it.
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Feb 22, 2010 08:45
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The point I've been making isn't that Godhand is irrelevent to the story. What I'm saying is what makes them reliable? I think the Godhand is an unreliable source. The demons, time and time again, have went on about how they are immortal and greater than man (much like the nobles to peasants). And continuously, Guts has chopped them down. At some point, you have to ask 'does it really matter'? If nobility is nothing more than concoction of human pride, what makes the Godhand and causality any more than a creation of human imagination? Of course the story is symbolic. But trying to comprehend the story from a bias that the characters are speaking truthfully or even accurately has to fly in the face of the events presented. That's why I don't really put a lot of weight in the mystical causality and fate discussions. You have to believe they are real (at least plot wise) to consider them. Guts is living proof that none of it matters. Not just symbolically but literally; he cuts down the demons. Besides, the Idea of Evil explains more about why Griffith was chosen and how the Godhand works than the message Muira is trying present.
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Feb 22, 2010 08:48
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temple posted:At some point, you have to ask 'does it really matter'? If nobility is nothing more than concoction of human pride, what makes the Godhand and causality any more than a creation of human imagination?
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Feb 22, 2010 09:04
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Everyone keeps forgetting the Four Cardinals that Schierke introduced us too. Of course how they play into plot to overlap worlds has yet to be seen, compared to the machinations of the Godhand.
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Feb 22, 2010 11:48
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A.S.H. posted:Everyone keeps forgetting the Four Cardinals that Schierke introduced us too. Of course how they play into plot to overlap worlds has yet to be seen, compared to the machinations of the Godhand. Well that's at least true for me. Honestly IDR what the hell those are! LoL EDIT: vvvv Thanks Zorak that triggered it! HAHAHA liquidus696 fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 22, 2010 |
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Feb 22, 2010 18:31
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A.S.H. posted:Everyone keeps forgetting the Four Cardinals that Schierke introduced us too. Of course how they play into plot to overlap worlds has yet to be seen, compared to the machinations of the Godhand. Pretty sure those are just elemental spirits, they're totally different from the God Hand. Spirits are creations of human karma, whereas the Godhand basically ARE human karma
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Feb 22, 2010 18:34
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temple posted:That's why I don't really put a lot of weight in the mystical causality and fate discussions. You have to believe they are real (at least plot wise) to consider them. Guts is living proof that none of it matters. Not just symbolically but literally; he cuts down the demons. I think you're right on the money with your supporting arguments but coming to the wrong conclusions. The whole idea is that yes, Guts' very existence is outside causality - that's why he can ignore their supposed supremacy over mankind, that's why he can kill them. This becomes the case literally and in-narrative when he's branded, but it set up long before that as he becomes increasingly independent of Griffith and closer to being his equal during the early arcs. Remember that at the same time mystical causality is what allowed Griffith to turn a group of bandits into a world-reknowned legion of knights who almost single-handedly turned the tide of a war. The world bends around Griffith; Guts cuts through the world.
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Feb 22, 2010 19:34
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Zorak posted:Pretty sure those are just elemental spirits, they're totally different from the God Hand. Spirits are creations of human karma, whereas the Godhand basically ARE human karma Yet they have been so far capable of some pretty amazing things, of course their awesomeness is directly correlated to Schierkes resourcefulness at summoning the right elemental for the right occasion. Still the fact that these spiritual forces can be called upon to retip the balance against darkness would seem to imply that all hope isn't lost for those who don't want to side with the Godhand. Diabetic posted:We'll see but I don't want a cop out ending where Guts can only kill Griffy-poo because his son makes that fish face and stares with his one good eye inside Griffith. I just started reading from the beginning again, and before I didn't even realize that Puck was making the fish face at times when Guts is REALLY laying the 'mean loner' schtick on thick. I wonder if Puck even realized what he was doing?
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Feb 22, 2010 21:32
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A.S.H. posted:Yet they have been so far capable of some pretty amazing things, of course their awesomeness is directly correlated to Schierkes resourcefulness at summoning the right elemental for the right occasion. Still the fact that these spiritual forces can be called upon to retip the balance against darkness would seem to imply that all hope isn't lost for those who don't want to side with the Godhand. I honestly don't think you understand this very well they're not like Gods or something, they're just like the Trolls and everything, just another belief-created entity that just is stronger than the others The Godhand are fate itself
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Feb 22, 2010 21:42
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Zorak posted:they're not like Gods or something, they're just like the Trolls and everything, just another belief-created entity that just is stronger than the others Didn't say that they were gods, or that they weren't astral entities. I guess what I'm getting at, is with the overlap of the spiritual world with the physical, I'll be surprised if Schierke's magic doesn't become more influential. Even more, consider that removing Flora from the picture was rather crucial to Griffith, enough for him to send Zodd and Grunbeld.
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Feb 22, 2010 23:13
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Can't wait for Guts to slice the Gattai GriffithXIdea mess and release a stream of happiness unto the world.
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Feb 23, 2010 00:14
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Zorak posted:I honestly don't think you understand this very well I think he is saying that not everything from the astral realm is wanting to rape, eat, and kill people.
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Feb 23, 2010 08:54
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Diabetic posted:I think he is saying that not everything from the astral realm is wanting to rape, eat, and kill people. Yeah this also.
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Feb 23, 2010 09:14
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