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Diabetic posted:I wonder how it'll explain the situation: "Oh I turned into a dog demon and nearly raped you too." I don't think that's any more awkward than "accidentally" strangling her during their sex scene.
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Mar 2, 2010 07:13
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Lord_Pigeonbane posted:I don't think that's any more awkward than "accidentally" strangling her during their sex scene. She didn't complain. She seems to enjoy it with all the choking sounds and "You're hurting me." 
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Mar 2, 2010 07:47
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Guts can't help it, his love for her is like a truck.
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Mar 2, 2010 07:55
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YouTuber posted:The Skull Knight already came to the conclusion that Caska doesn't want to be sane. Hence why he keeps saying "What you want may not be what she wants." Gutz wants Caska to be normal more than anything in the world. The entire time we've been misled because he wanted to kill Griffith so badly. Which I think Guts on some level knows and understands. There is no happy ending in sight for him and Caska.
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Mar 2, 2010 15:43
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Edge Zero posted:Guts can't help it, his love for her is like a truck. He wants to be making gently caress. Berserker. BERSERKER.
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Mar 2, 2010 16:34
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That outtake video was great.
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Mar 2, 2010 16:47
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Cause I'm a girl who just can't say no. Can't seem to say it at all. I always say c'mon let's go when I ought a say stop. I can't sayyyyy nooooo. Abridged of course.
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Mar 2, 2010 17:50
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The winner takes it all. The loser has to fall.
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Mar 2, 2010 17:51
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The group that Guts has around him will become like the Band of the Hawk so Caska will be fine if she ever gets cured. She'll end up being raped to death or something though.
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Mar 2, 2010 18:12
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Griffith, just so you know...Caska wants you to stuff her like a Thanksgiving turkey.
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Mar 2, 2010 18:15
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I think it's inevitable that Caska goes back to Griffith once she regains her mind. Her attachment to him is far higher than her one to Guts. The big question is how Guts will act. Will he simply accept it, will he become a drunk or something, or will he decide that the only thing to do is introduce Griffith to his sword? Thinking it's the latter.
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Mar 2, 2010 20:21
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Zorak posted:I think it's inevitable that Caska goes back to Griffith once she regains her mind. Her attachment to him is far higher than her one to Guts. I disagree intensely, and honestly find it creepy that people expect this - I thought the last guy was making a joke. Remember that Caska's initial loyalty to Griffith grew from the fact that he saved her from being raped, and more generally from being exploited by and trodden upon by arrogant nobility. Griffith has become everything Caska has reason to hate, and having her go back to him (if she regains her mind) would make no sense and have a pretty drat misogynistic subtext. On the other hand, she always had her disagreements with Guts, and if she remembers everything that happened while she's been in her current state she'll have even more. What I really want to see is the further development of their relationship as comrades (and as lovers, but the narrative hasn't given us as much depth there and so I'm somewhat less interested), since mentally-normal Caska is probably the only member of the current group besides Serpico who could easily interact with Guts as a peer instead of the glorious and tragic leader. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 2, 2010 |
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Mar 2, 2010 20:32
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Zorak posted:I think it's inevitable that Caska goes back to Griffith once she regains her mind. Her attachment to him is far higher than her one to Guts. This sounds pretty much the same as how I've always thought it would end up. I'm thinking that the dog demon will get more chances to come out if she leaves, especially after the dream Guts had while on the ship. Must've been back in the 280's, though I don't remember what the dialogue was so I could be misremembering what went on.
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Mar 2, 2010 20:35
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The dog demon is just Guts' sexual insecurity and fear of betrayal manifesting through the fact that he's a borderline-supernatural killing machine. If anything, Caska is the antidote to that. EDIT: spelling Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Mar 2, 2010 |
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Mar 2, 2010 20:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Remember that Caska's initial loyalty to Griffith grew from the fact that he saved her from being raped, and more generally from being exploited by and trodden upon by arrogant nobility. Griffith has become everything Caska has reason to hate, and having her go back to him (if she regains her mind) would make no sense and have a pretty drat misogynistic subtext. Yes but she's obsessively in love with him; it's not misogynistic for people to be irrational. Guts is pretty drat irrational himself. Hell, remember that right before Griffith became an Apostle, he actually tried to rape her. Of course, he was hideously disfigured and it was more pathetic than anything since he couldn't even hardly move, it was sad enough that Caska decided she wanted to stay with Griffith, right before he went and turned everything to hell. I doubt Caska will remember anything since she lost her memory; she will likely remember Griffith as he was, and even if she knew what the monster he had become, she has a self-sacrificial mindset when it comes to this stuff. She may feel like that Griffith needs her to become "human" or something, or retain the connection she feels with her demonic child that became his body. Remember: assume the bleakest possible solution. Skull Knight implies that what Caska wants may not be what Guts wants. This means she won't want what Guts wants. This basically leads directly into Guts being totally dropped in favor for her returning to Griffith, which is pretty much as bleak-black as the situation can get. Tuxedo Catfish posted:The dog demon is just Guts' sexual insecurity and fear of betrayal manifesting through the fact that he's a borderline-supernatural killing machine. If anything, Caska is the antitode to that. The "dog demon" is less an actual demon than just a representation of Guts' own rage, fury, and primal emotions. During the War for Midland, he was a powerful warrior, but he wasn't a berserker. He focused on improving his skill and seeking a sort of understanding of himself and the world through fighting. After Griffith ascended, he let his emotions consume him. He became the berserker. He became a beast. He became no better than the Apostles in a lot of ways, so that he could kill them and lost his aching heart. He didn't know what to do, and so rather than take a reasonable route, he embraced vengeance, fury, rage, losing himself for at least a year in that. He came to recognize this when he went to rescue Caska after she escaped, and has since then become more restrained, but even then he knows that the capacity to be a monster is in him, just like it's in any other person. His rage isn't gone, it's in check. The connections to other people that he has with his group is what allows him to maintain himself, just like it did with the Hawks. I don't know what would happen if Caska consciously left him to be with what he feels is the ultimate monster in the world. Would he be consumed by rage? Sadness? Purpose?
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Mar 2, 2010 20:52
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Zorak posted:Yes but she's obsessively in love with him; it's not misogynistic for people to be irrational. Guts is pretty drat irrational himself. During the Band of the Hawk arc Caska was developed as the voice of reason to Guts' mix of detachment and emotional reactions. I don't really think her decision to protect Griffith when he was crippled was based exclusively or even primarily on infatuation; there's pity, personal loyalty, and the situation they're in (reduced to a group of wandering bandits, exactly what Griffith lifted them out of the first time around) to be considered. Zorak posted:Remember: assume the bleakest possible solution. Skull Knight implies that what Caska wants may not be what Guts wants. This means she won't want what Guts wants. This basically leads directly into Guts being totally dropped in favor for her returning to Griffith, which is pretty much as bleak-black as the situation can get. Maybe I'm giving Miura too much credit here, but I don't think he's writing just to be as bleak as possible to the exclusion of everything else. Everything in the story so far has been about the relationship of followers to people who can move the world. It interlocks with the causality / destiny thing through Guts, who wasn't ever supposed to be one of those world-shakers but is coming progressively closer to becoming one all the time. That's why I'm so interested in seeing an awakened Caska interact with him; to emphasize or complicate the contrast between Guts and the reborn Griffith. It's pretty obvious where the story is going on a superficial level (Guts kills a shitton of monsters, fights Griffith) but what makes that worth following is the process by which they get there. Griffith has an army of Apostles, beings who literally sold their free will and most precious human connections to become powerful, fate-affecting beings - only to ironically become mere extensions of a greater power's will. (With some very significant exceptions which I hope we'll see developed, like the Apostle who's just waiting for a chance to kill him and steal his face.) Guts by comparison has a group of people who have looked inside his soul, watch him suffer to protect them, and seem like they at least might be following him of their own free will. (Almost as if stepping outside Fate is catching. Also: Caska is branded and yet still alive herself. So even if the other companions aren't, she should be unbound by causality in the same way Guts is.) So when the story says "what she wants may not be what you want," I think it could mean any number of things. But based on the above, I don't think it'll mean that she goes right back to following a demonic messiah just because his Fate-powered charisma is so compelling that she'll forgive him murdering everyone close to her. (I have a vague feeling that Caska briefly being the leader of the Band of the Hawk herself at one point is significant in some way, but I've already written a wall of text and I'm not sure where that thought is going anyways.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Mar 2, 2010 |
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Mar 2, 2010 21:30
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Guts' life has followed a pattern of "Find a place to belong" followed by "Horrific tragedy". It really would not surprise me at all if Miura chose to continue this. I predict that Caska will try to return to Griffith, only to be raped/murdered by his minions. I expect the same to happen to Guts' other companions as well.
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Mar 2, 2010 22:10
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:So when the story says "what she wants may not be what you want," I think it could mean any number of things. But based on the above, I don't think it'll mean that she goes right back to following a demonic messiah just because his Fate-powered charisma is so compelling that she'll forgive him murdering everyone close to her. It doesn't mean she'll necessarily fall for his charisma; she may do it entirely out of sympathy. I mean really, Griffith gave up his humanity to be king, but what has it got him REALLY? Empty power. An empty existence. It's almost pathetic in a way; it's what he's always wanted, and he now essentially gets it because he can get anything he wants now. He puts out no work and effort like he did before, there is no lofty goal for it; he does it for the sake of fulfilling an ancient dream of a man he once was. Hell, she might not even remember what he did or the Eclipse even if she regains her old memories. Zorak fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Mar 3, 2010 |
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Mar 2, 2010 22:22
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Zorak posted:It doesn't mean she'll necessarily fall for his charisma; she may do it entirely out of sympathy. I mean really, Griffith gave up his humanity to be king, but what has it got him REALLY? Empty power. An empty existence. It's almost pathetic in a way; it's what he's always wanted, and he now essentially gets it because he can get anything he wants now. Based on that it seems like everything Griffith has been doing all this time is building Gutts up to a level where he can be killed by him. In that respect it actually makes me like Griffith more as a character... Speaking of which right before the eclipse Griffith tried to off him self but either failed or couldn't bring himself to do it. Later he seemed to want everyone to stay away, seemly for their own good. Maybe Griffith has realized he's gained everything but that its empty and is now just planning his own death! Also in the Caska debate, speaking nothing as to whats more likely I hope that if/when Caska is healed she stays with Gutts, forgiving him of the things that had happened since she lost her memory; because as hopeless and depressing as this manga tends to be I REALLY want Gutts to have at least one win. Since forever ago his "main" goal was to fix Caska[AND kill Griffith of course] and if he does only for her to return to Griffith it would not only scrap all the character progression Caska had had previous to the eclipse[In regards to Gutts, and just realizing she doesn't need Griffith]which would ruin her character completely IMO, but might also ruin the series as a whole for me. http://view.thespectrum.net/series/berserk-volume-01.html?ch=Volume+12&page=61 http://view.thespectrum.net/series/berserk-volume-01.html?ch=Volume+12&page=75
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Mar 2, 2010 22:51
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Zorak posted:I mean really, Griffith gave up his humanity to be king, but what has it got him REALLY? Empty power. An empty existence. It's almost pathetic in a way; it's what he's always wanted, and he now essentially gets it because he can get anything he wants now. Are you sure about that? I mean, yes, we have Apostles and Griffith's human followers describing him as a perfect, glorious and terrifying being with no fears or weaknesses... But except for Guts and Caska, people saw him that way before he ascended, too. They could be wrong. Not to mention, as I've said before in regards to other things - Miura's spent entire arcs proving that Apostles are still driven by human emotions. They give up their relationships with other humans and sacrifice them out of hatred or ambition or despair, but I don't know that they actually lose their humanity in the most complete sense.
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Mar 2, 2010 23:38
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Well, regardless of what ends up happening, we have plenty of time to keep thinking about it and discussing it, seeing as how the next chapter likely won't be out until June or July. I'd really take a small sacrifice to how good the art is, if it meant that we could have chapter releases per year in the double digits again. I know Miura does a poo poo ton of research and planning as well, so I guess we just have to wait and wait some more.
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Mar 3, 2010 03:02
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Hey guys remember that time Puck was in The Residents?
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Mar 3, 2010 03:21
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Zorak posted:It doesn't mean she'll necessarily fall for his charisma; she may do it entirely out of sympathy. I mean really, Griffith gave up his humanity to be king, but what has it got him REALLY? Empty power. An empty existence. It's almost pathetic in a way; it's what he's always wanted, and he now essentially gets it because he can get anything he wants now. Reading this, it makes me wonder if Griffith fell apart now that he has got his kingdom. In the arc where the band of the hawk was around, the organizing principle in Griffith's life was to get this kingdom of his own. And while he was pretty darn good at the politicing, in the end, he weirdly couldn't deal with failure. (In this case, the failure to keep Guts in the Band of the Hawk.) While Guts was walking away, thinking "this is just a pebble in your road to greatness," etc. Griffith flipped out, and slept with the princess, which set him down his current road. This is in contrast to Guts, who has failed at lots of things, and for the most part is not especially bothered by these failures. Anyway, now that he has this kingdom, I wonder if Griffith isn't going to face problems at least as big as the time Guts walked out of his life. Both Griffith and Guts are people of incredibly powerful emotions and drives, which are kept in check with a Iron dicipline. But while that dicipline in Guts is part of his character, dicipline in Griffith is used only in service of a goal. Without a new goal to encourage dicipline, will Griffith's drives run wild? A man at the mercy of his drives is quite capable of bringing on a new age of darkness and depravity.
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Mar 3, 2010 03:39
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Zorak posted:It doesn't mean she'll necessarily fall for his charisma; she may do it entirely out of sympathy. I mean really, Griffith gave up his humanity to be king, but what has it got him REALLY? Empty power. An empty existence. It's almost pathetic in a way; it's what he's always wanted, and he now essentially gets it because he can get anything he wants now. I think you've put too much thought into this and have made up your own ideas where they are not confirmed or implied within the story.
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Mar 3, 2010 05:41
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Niddhogg posted:I think you've put too much thought into this and have made up your own ideas where they are not confirmed or implied within the story. My predictions about Caska's actions are; she's shown pretty silly sympathy for him before both before and after the Eclipse. She was Guts' lover, but she felt the most devotion to Griffith and his cause. We've had plenty of foreshadowing that Caska regaining her mind isn't going to go exactly as Guts planned. This could go two ways as far I see it, assuming that the foreshadowing actually has a point: 1) She doesn't want her memories back and wants to go back to being ignorant, or 2) She doesn't necessarily agree that Guts is in the right, or will want to stay with Guts. I think #2 is the more likely. Caska's primary trait way back when was her loyalty to Griffith and his fight. While I certainly agree the specific reasons of her return to Griffith ARE guesses, I think her returning to Griffith IS statistically very likely, what since the other options aren't very internally dramatic (Caska is happy being back! GUTS AND CASKA LIVE HAPPY EVER AFTER WITH ELVES THE END; Caska is unhappy being back! She has them make her dumb again making a whole part of the series kind of dumb) Guts needs a justification to bother returning to do Griffith in. The Skull Knight clearly pointed out it was either go after Caska or go after Griffith. He went after Caska, and decided to help her. But she is a person herself; the strongest dramatic likelihood would be for her to end up going to the monster that Guts passed on chasing after just to help her, leading Guts back towards actually giving a poo poo about what Griffith is up to at this point. Zorak fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Mar 3, 2010 |
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Mar 3, 2010 05:49
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I am still rooting for Griffith leads the world into a new era of magical peace while Caska regains her sanity and lives happily ever after in a cottage with Guts, who spends teh rest of his life chilling in his cottage and teaching his band of misfits how to most effectively deal with the demons that walk the earth now. AND THEY ALL ANTI-CLIMATICALLY LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER
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Mar 3, 2010 07:44
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Micgael posted:I am still rooting for Griffith leads the world into a new era of magical peace while Caska regains her sanity and lives happily ever after in a cottage with Guts, who spends teh rest of his life chilling in his cottage and teaching his band of misfits how to most effectively deal with the demons that walk the earth now. Any happy ending that doesnt involve Griffith getting his head lopped off his shoulders aint good enough for me
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Mar 3, 2010 07:50
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I have a feeling Caska is not going to really remember much of anything about the Eclipse if we're once again to believe the Dreamcast game where she was cured very briefly of her insanity. (Miura did write it so I go by it and briefly alludes to it in the manga) However she will flip out when she realizes how much time has past, what the big mark on her chest is, and really has no defense other than a big man she somewhat recognizes as her former lover.
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Mar 3, 2010 08:30
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Knowing Guts' luck she'll regain her touch with reality when he's at the peak of Berserker-armor blood frenzy (for her sake of course)
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Mar 3, 2010 09:02
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Zorak posted:Knowing Guts' luck she'll regain her touch with reality when he's at the peak of Berserker-armor blood frenzy (for her sake of course) *Cue Nam-like flashback of the Eclipse for Caska* Wow that is so depressing and I can hear the music from Platoon here too.
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Mar 3, 2010 09:14
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Zorak posted:My predictions about Caska's actions are; she's shown pretty silly sympathy for him before both before and after the Eclipse. She was Guts' lover, but she felt the most devotion to Griffith and his cause. My problem with all of this is that you seem to think this will happen purely because it will be another bad thing to happen to Guts. "This is the most dramatic outcome" is never a good enough explanation. It's going to take a HUGE leap of logic on the writer's, character's, and audience's part to accept something like that happening. I mean think about it, for her to return to Griffith, Caska has to: 1. Not remember anything before the eclipse (very possible) 2. Not believe Guts when he tells her what happened (I guess this can happen, even though Guts has a TON of proof to back his story up) 3. She has to not think anything about : - how everyone else in the Hawks is dead - the marks on guts' neck and caska's chest - the monsters that attack them every night - how these same monsters serve Griffith - how her mark bleeds and burns when she gets near Griffith ...Which would just make her a stupid character, which she is not. quote:Guts needs a justification to bother returning to do Griffith in. The Skull Knight clearly pointed out it was either go after Caska or go after Griffith. He went after Caska, and decided to help her. But she is a person herself; the strongest dramatic likelihood would be for her to end up going to the monster that Guts passed on chasing after just to help her, leading Guts back towards actually giving a poo poo about what Griffith is up to at this point. What!? You seriously think he doesn't have a motivation to Kill Griffith? Did you miss what happened during the Eclipse? He's been trying to kill Griffith since this manga started. Bringing Caska back just took priority over killing Griffith. Whenever she comes back/doesn't come back/jumps off a cliff as soon as she returns Guts is going right back to killing him.
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Mar 3, 2010 13:28
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I agree with Niddhogg. It just seems like Casca going back to Griffith would just be tragedy for tragedy's sake. And even after she is cured, Guts still has plenty of motivation to kill Griffith still. Him violating Casca was only one of the reasons he seeks revenge. It would be really bad writing if she went back to him. Of course, I don't expect everything to be all sunshine when/if she is cured. That's just not how Berserk works. And this is probably a dumb question but what exactly happened when SK ripped a hole in Ganishka?
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Mar 3, 2010 17:42
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Niddhogg posted:What!? You seriously think he doesn't have a motivation to Kill Griffith? Did you miss what happened during the Eclipse? He's been trying to kill Griffith since this manga started. Bringing Caska back just took priority over killing Griffith. Whenever she comes back/doesn't come back/jumps off a cliff as soon as she returns Guts is going right back to killing him. Guts has abandoned going all revenge crazy after Griffith. He has plenty of past motivation, but his focus is entirely on Caska. Caska suddenly killing herself is pretty anti-climactic, and the implication is that she WILL regain her mind, just not necessarily be what Guts expects. Guts is ignoring the Griffith situation on the possibility of a happy future, and the possibility of it. I don't think it's necessarily stupid of Caska to go back to Griffith after all this crap, because she may still love him. Love isn't rational, it doesn't have to make perfect sense. She may very well feel loyalty and love for him still. I'm pretty sure Miura can write that well enough, to frame it well enough. Caska leaving Guts just before the Eclipse so she can take care of cripple-Griffith itself was kind of stupid. That doesn't make her a stupid person by any means. But again, as I've stated, this is my personal theory. I think it's a good one since it maximizes the dramatic tension for when Guts goes after Griffith, since the driver for the revenge is an active one rather than an old one.
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Mar 3, 2010 18:29
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Maybe she will regain her memory but revert to that of a child from the trauma? I don't know, what way do rape victims usually behave?
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Mar 3, 2010 19:37
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Caska had it coming the way she was dressed.
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Mar 3, 2010 19:45
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Swedish Nice Boy posted:Caska had it coming the way she was dressed. Yeah, that breastplate/gauntlets/greaves/leggings really showed off... um. Actually, that's probably some of the most practical female armor I've ever seen in a fantasy medium. Possibly even more realistic than the guys running around in full plate during real combat.
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Mar 3, 2010 19:50
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Haha. Nothing says, "I wanna get raped" like encasing yourself in iron!
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Mar 3, 2010 20:55
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Zorak posted:Guts has abandoned going all revenge crazy after Griffith. He has plenty of past motivation, but his focus is entirely on Caska. Caska suddenly killing herself is pretty anti-climactic, and the implication is that she WILL regain her mind, just not necessarily be what Guts expects. Guts is ignoring the Griffith situation on the possibility of a happy future, and the possibility of it. Where the hell are you getting this from? Seriously, give me a chapter or page or something where Guts has said or implied that he has given up his quest to kill Griffith. quote:I don't think it's necessarily stupid of Caska to go back to Griffith after all this crap, because she may still love him. Love isn't rational, it doesn't have to make perfect sense. She may very well feel loyalty and love for him still. I'm pretty sure Miura can write that well enough, to frame it well enough. At that time, Griffith had slept with a princess and inadvertently became a prisoner. He didn't put Caska through an ordeal so horrible it drove her insane. Trying to compare anything Griffith did before the eclipse is just stupid. quote:But again, as I've stated, this is my personal theory. I think it's a good one since it maximizes the dramatic tension for when Guts goes after Griffith, since the driver for the revenge is an active one rather than an old one. Again, drama for drama's sake does not make any theory work. Yes, it is loving retarded of Caska to go back to Griffith. "Irrational Love" is when you forgive someone for sleeping around on you or treating you bad. No amount of love is going to make a woman forgive a man for throwing her into a demon rape pit, raping her himself, and murdering everyone she has ever loved. If Miura tries to insult me by having her go back to Griffith I will seriously stop reading Berserk. I'm sorry Zorak, I usually agree with you but this theory is just ignorant.
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Mar 3, 2010 20:59
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She might not want to leave things the way they are even if she didn't want to go back to Griffith. It seems like she can tell he's using her kid's body, I don't think she'll want to leave her only child alone like that. I'm guessing that she'll remember what happened while she's insane so her opinion of Guts has probably changed as well, between Griffith, Guts, and her kid, she's doesn't really have much reason for care for any of them except the kid. I don't see "not doing what Guts want" as being equivalent to running back Griffith though. Well it would be equivalent in effect since he's using her kid's body, but the possible motives aren't binary. Algid fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Mar 3, 2010 |
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Mar 3, 2010 21:08
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Algid posted:She might not want to leave things the way they are even if she didn't want to go back to Griffith. It seems like she can tell he's using her kid's body, I don't think she'll want to leave her only child alone like that. I'm guessing that she'll remember what happened while she's insane so her opinion of Guts has probably changed as well, between Griffith, Guts, and her kid, she's doesn't really have much reason for care for any of them except the kid. What has guts done that would turn her away from him?
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Mar 3, 2010 21:09
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