|
RagnarokAngel posted:So question. Is rigging a fight so the PCs lose always bad? I'd always been taught as a general rule you just don't do that but I have a long term villian I'd like to establish as a credible threat and in 4e you generally don't run into fights you can't overcome, given how powerful the PCs are. Above Lugubrious' advice, two points stand out for me if you're going to do that: 1) make sure everyone is on the same page, and 2) be willing to have it turn out totally different than you expected. The first point helps prevent player resentment of the DM. If people expect the game world to be all exactly level-appropriate encounters that end in a TPK or a player victory with nothing in between, having them get shown up will frustrate them. If he's standing off to the side and just leaves, per Loogie's suggestion, you can get away with it better, but gauge your audience to make sure they won't take umbrage with you. The second is just statistics that so often get forgotten by starting DMs, and I'm not sure how experienced you are. When you throw something like that out there, there's always the chance that either the PCs' dailies will do better than you anticipated and kill the villain outright or he'll kill several PCs. Actually, both is possible, too. I hate removing a victory on the players' part to railroad them to failure, so if he fights, make sure you know how things can go wrong and be ready to handle it. (You might want to tell them if they manage that, though. It could well be very memorable--the time they beat the campaign early and underleveled!)
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 08:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 21:02 |
|
|
Eh I got collateral planned. The ultimate plot can still progress without his input, though it'd be different, not to say their changing it has no impact. And really intend to cut the battle short once the party realizes what they're dealing with, and give some hype that this guy might be out of their league so they can bolt before getting involved. I've played in some campaigns and know once players get wise that this guy is too powerful it becomes tedious quickly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 08:58
|
|
|
I'm about to DM a 3.5 game, and I'm implementing Action Points as they're outlined in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionpoints.htm) Basically players get a pool of ~6 APs and can use them to take another standard action, boost a d20 roll by 1d6, recall a spell, and a few other things. How much is this going to affect challenge ratings and such? Obviously it makes combat easier on the players, but do you think the presence of APs makes combat MUCH easier, or is it a trivial factor? How much can I get away with in regards to amping up the difficulty of encounters basically. VVV  I'm playing with people who won't play 4e, throw me a bone, man.
Stuntman Mike fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Mar 31, 2010 |
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 14:13
|
|
|
Stuntman Mike posted:How much is this going to affect challenge ratings and such? Hahahahahahaha.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 14:25
|
|
|
To explain for RagnarokAngel, all experienced 3.5 DMs know that CR is joke, some creatures are vastly overpowered for their CR, and others are totally underpowered, and without experience and a good feel for your party's capabilities, you're better off just ignoring CR entirely and picking monsters that follow the 50% rule (50% chance of an action succeeding) that can't one or two shot PCs damage-wise. Also, the presence of APs depends on how the PCs use them, if they only use one or two an encounter total, it won't change much. If you find they blow them all on a single encounter they'll probably steamroll it unless you screwed up and had setup a TPK.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 15:41
|
|
|
Well, good thing I'm not an experienced 3.5 DM, heheheh...heh...heh...poo poo. The 50% rule is all well and good but how would that help me when using larger numbers of easy creatures? Just crunch the numbers on each side, I guess?
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 15:49
|
|
|
An 'easy' creature would be on the PCs can hit more often than half the time, if they have iterative attacks I'd say it would be one that they could hit with their second (or third, if they're that high) at least 50% of the time. Note that this applies to Spell Resistance too, don't make an encounter where the wizard gets to whiff with all his SR-resisted spells but the fighter can hit it with a sword. Sure, it makes the fighter feel useful for once (which can be a nice change of pace). If everybody's playing casters this really doesn't matter, because once they figure out how to play casters properly the game quickly turns into target practice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:01
|
|
|
Stuntman Mike posted:Well, good thing I'm not an experienced 3.5 DM, heheheh...heh...heh...poo poo. 3.5 is like a motorcycle with bad mechanical problems, know what you're doing and you'll have a good time, one false move and they'll be picking your teeth out of a telephone pole
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:23
|
|
|
Stuntman Mike posted:Well, good thing I'm not an experienced 3.5 DM, heheheh...heh...heh...poo poo. make poo poo up. If you want the fight to continue pretend not everyone is dead yet. if you want the fight to end pretend that everyone is weaker than they are. No one will ever know and you will never have to worry about game balance agian
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:25
|
|
|
the challenge rating for this monster is: whatever I feel like what do you care. see this cardboard wall? you can't prove I'm lying because everything is behind the wall. have fun
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:27
|
|
|
wow liesmith you're ruining my verisimilitude.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:30
|
|
|
Liesmith posted:the challenge rating for this monster is: whatever I feel like what do you care. see this cardboard wall? you can't prove I'm lying because everything is behind the wall. have fun Oh...you one-shotted my aboleth with a x3 critical, eh? IT EXPLODES INTO 40 ORC WARRIORS, HAVE FUN KIDS!  But that's a good idea, just making poo poo up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 16:42
|
|
|
Stuntman Mike posted:Oh...you one-shotted my aboleth with a x3 critical, eh? IT EXPLODES INTO 40 ORC WARRIORS, HAVE FUN KIDS! That's the thing, how do they know they one shotted your abotleth unless you tell them? Laughing in his battle-madness, Thorgar Who Loves the Slaughter buries his ancestral greataxe Himir deep in the vile creature's back. His laugh falters, however, when the creature strikes back at him with its vile tentacles, seemingly ignoring a wound that should fell any mortal creature. For the first time in his life, Thorgar experiences fear. What hideous power is keeping the beast's soul in its body? (its me, I'm the hideous power)
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 17:17
|
|
|
Liesmith posted:That's the thing, how do they know they one shotted your abotleth unless you tell them? Just write a loving book then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 17:33
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:Just write a loving book then. But what about the "fun" factor - I understand the need for fudging the numbers. Fighting the BBEG isn't fun if you end up getting way lucky and killing it in a round. That isn't satisfying. Maybe its just me, but as a player I'd prefer a confrontation that I have to work at and feel a sense of accomplishment when victorious.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 17:52
|
|
|
Ignoring the dice owns. Fudging numbers owns. I am not going to have a session ruined because some idiot thug happened to roll unbelievably well and hit one of the PCs right in the eye. I am not going to derail an entire campaign because the players all have hot dice and accidentally win the Battle of Hoth. 'Wow this threat is truly incredible we must escape to find some way that it can be defeated at last' is a perfectly good hook for a story arc. Of course your players have to trust that you're not just going to screw them over for your own evil amusement but that's your goddamn problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 17:58
|
|
|
I once had a group who were horrible powergamers and would charge headlong into the obviously overwhelming odds when it was clear they were supposed to run and then they'd call me a "killer dm" when they got TPK'd and got irl mad at me for weeks i don't miss hanging out with nerds
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 18:04
|
|
|
even worse username posted:Of course your players have to trust that you're not just going to screw them over for your own evil amusement but that's your goddamn problem. You're right, they need to trust you're going to screw them over for their own drat amusement.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 19:23
|
|
|
Stuntman Mike posted:But what about the "fun" factor - I understand the need for fudging the numbers. Fighting the BBEG isn't fun if you end up getting way lucky and killing it in a round. That isn't satisfying. Maybe its just me, but as a player I'd prefer a confrontation that I have to work at and feel a sense of accomplishment when victorious. The fun factor as the GM is coming up with a new and interesting angle when the players win against all odds and actually do kill that BBEG early on, either through great luck or with great skill and tactics you never even thought of. There's nothing wrong with going "Alright, you have done the seemingly impossible, we're going to take a 5 minute break real fast!" and think, logically, how things would continue. If you had a contingency plan, go final fantasy on your players and add in another form or something. In my last campaign the players were ingenious and super lucky, and killed the BBEG in 3 rounds. Given that he was a high priest of Orcus, I let them have that victory but followed up with a skill challenge and several more fights to scale down the now crumbling tower that was rocked and deteriorating due to the sudden surge of anguish suffered by the BBEG. It was just as epic as if the players had gone toe to toe for a few more rounds with the priest. Don't fudge the numbers and go "aHA! You missed or did piddly damage! *bumps health up 3x normal furiously*", just run with it and escalate the adventure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 19:30
|
|
|
lighttigersoul posted:You're right, they need to trust you're going to screw them over for their own drat amusement. Exactly. If the dice happen to come up with a result that is not fun, then gently caress the dice, seriously. Most of the time I fudge things it is in the players' favour anyway. A PC getting critically wounded so his buddies have to come pull him out from under the enemies' muzzles and finish the battle without him is fun. A PC with lots of play invested in it getting outright killed is usually not fun. The PC's starship getting shot down over some horrible monster-infested swamp is fun. The starship being blown into confetti killing all aboard is not fun. If the players come up with something clever and bring a battle to an end a lot quicker than anticipated, so be it. On the other hand if the point of the scene is not supposed to be 'the big showdown' but 'ohshitrun' then there's nothing wrong with a little jiggery-pokery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 20:52
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:Just write a loving book then. You are retarded. Having a DM fudge rolls doesn't take anything away from the players. If they want this aboleth to die, it will. If they want to do some other thing with the aboleth, they can. He just won't die in the first round to a critical hit made by the powergamer who is ruining the campaign for everyone else. If you just make poo poo up, the players get to do the things they want, you never accidentally TPK or have anticlimactic boss fights, and everyone has a good time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 21:03
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:I have a long term villian I'd like to establish as a credible threat There are lots of ways to establish a villain as a credible threat other than have him trounce the party in a fight. Have them encounter enemy NPCs who are working on his behalf, or friendly NPCs who won't help them because they're scared of him, or give them a mission where the objective is to get in and get out before he arrives. If the aim of a fight becomes "Finish this within <x> rounds, or <NPC> will arrive and you'll be doomed" having the NPC be more powerful than the party can take when he arrives is much more justified, because by getting out of the fight in time the PCs are simultaneously establishing him as a threat and winning an encounter against him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 21:25
|
|
|
Liesmith posted:You are retarded. Having a DM fudge rolls doesn't take anything away from the players. If they want this aboleth to die, it will. If they want to do some other thing with the aboleth, they can. He just won't die in the first round to a critical hit made by the powergamer who is ruining the campaign for everyone else. If you just make poo poo up, the players get to do the things they want, you never accidentally TPK or have anticlimactic boss fights, and everyone has a good time. Everything you've said comes down to a fault of the GM, not the players, so why make them suffer the consequences? If you know your group has powergamers then plan accordingly, and if you don't know it yet then react and keep going ahead with the story/game. And you aren't fudging rolls in favor of the players if you take away their thunder, you're fudging rolls AGAINST them. Read what I said in the above reply, in regards to going ahead with whatever happens and finding a way to keep the fun and excitement going. Just handwaving an encounter to suddenly make it take longer for your own enjoyment because "that's how you want it" is basically the same as saying "Okay here roll this dice even though it doesn't matter, we're only doing things my way". You might as well tell the players it'll take X rounds because that's what you planned so tough luck. The fun of being the GM is adapting to how your players adapt to what you created, it's a constant cycle. Let's see which situation is more fun: "Oh man remember when we all did really well and planned things out and the fight took forever so we could all see the GM's planned gimmicks? Yeah, I guess our characters really don't matter so much..." or "Oh man remember that time we all did really well and got lucky, killing that guy in 2 rounds, and then poo poo really hit the fan due to it? That was badass, this whole thing would have never happened if not for us specifically!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 21:57
|
|
|
It does tend to work better if you don't actually say "Oh gently caress me, what an utter unravelling of all my plans my plans my plans, fine, gently caress it I'm fudging the rolls try and stop me".
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 22:28
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:Everything you've said comes down to a fault of the GM, not the players, so why make them suffer the consequences? If you know your group has powergamers then plan accordingly, and if you don't know it yet then react and keep going ahead with the story/game. And you aren't fudging rolls in favor of the players if you take away their thunder, you're fudging rolls AGAINST them. I understand where you are coming from but you are wrong. You can have all the great "remember when we killed that guy in one hit we were so badass!" because a good DM will let you have it. You roll a natural twenty fighting the dragon, and he'll get a sense of the mood in the room and play it straight. When fudging the rolls helps is if one PC is totally useless in a fight next to the other guy who is just cleaning up. Also, there are times when you don't want to kill a monster in one hit. a good DM will notice that too, and he'll give you a little more time by tweaking it a little. Say joe and bob want to kick a golem out a bar window. This is a plan they came up with on your own. Joe swings from the chandelier to hit the golem, while bob lays down some suppressing fire. How much of a letdown would it be if bob's suppressing fire killed the thing because you, the DM, designed the encounter so that they would just shoot it to death? Wouldn't it be more fun all around if you ignored that and had the golem get kicked through some bigass picture window and out onto the street? quote:The fun of being the GM is adapting to how your players adapt to what you created, it's a constant cycle. I couldn't agree with this more. That's why I recommend that you use the dice as a guideline, and remain willing to be flexible with how the encounter goes depending on the mood of the group. The dice are great, and often they can add some much needed unpredictability to the mix. But sometimes they can make the whole game less fun, and in that situation the DM should feel free to ignore them. It's tough because a lot of DMs railroad, and the dice are your only defense against them. That sucks, and OK I see the point of rigidly adhering to the randomness fo the dice if the DM isn't allowing any other kind of flexibility. But a good DM will be flexible by definition, and that includes his interpretation of rolls.
|
|
#
?
Mar 31, 2010 23:31
|
|
|
Alright you make some good points as well, I guess we'll just agree to disagree on the finer points, especially if fudging in one players' favor disappointments another player or the group dynamic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2010 00:11
|
|
|
Whybird posted:There are lots of ways to establish a villain as a credible threat other than have him trounce the party in a fight. Have them encounter enemy NPCs who are working on his behalf, or friendly NPCs who won't help them because they're scared of him, or give them a mission where the objective is to get in and get out before he arrives. I think I should frame this better because I'm giving off the wrong idea. My concept is basically a guy whos a servant to this epic level group that controls fate itself. They do this by subtlety controlling events over time illuminati style (the group is entering paragon so they will deal with this group much further down the line). When thats not working they send this guy in, a warrior who is so powerful he decimates entire armies effectively shifting the entire direction of wars in the direction they want. The party doesnt know this though, all they know is he has a tendency to mysteriously join the ranks of an army and might be a friend one day and an enemy the next. The ideal situation is to demonstrate this power to the PCs on the front lines, with NPCs telling them that engaging him is a bad idea and they should fight another day. But because 4e has a very gung-ho attitude I think that the party may underestimate this as hyperbole and try and engage him anyway. Is a fight they probably will not win through straight up battle OK if I dont intend to actually kill them?
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2010 00:34
|
|
|
So the PCs are fighting in one army and this badass dude is in the enemy army and they meet in the middle of a big fight? That's perfect-- a war-sized melee isn't going to give them the time for a full-length encounter anyway. Say the PCs are doing their thing, fighting along the front lines, when they see this Kratos guy wrecking all their friends. Maybe they try to get to him, or if not then maybe he just ends up nearby because he's carving a path through their army and they're in the way. They get one round to take a shot at him before he's swept away from them in the chaos of battle, and maybe he knocks a couple of them down or something before he goes after another target. Suddenly they're on their asses and surrounded by his minions, because all of their friends nearby are down, or running away from him in a panic. They can try to keep pursuing him but it's going to be really difficult, because he'll be pretty far away by the time they get their local situation under control. That also seems like a good time for whoever's commanding their army to call for a retreat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2010 01:16
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:I think I should frame this better because I'm giving off the wrong idea. Alternately, if you have enough time in your narrative, you can establish him as Unstoppable McBadass by putting him on the players' side in a conflict, have him handle a large part of the main fighting himself (while your players are performing some secondary but vital side mission, like attacking and destroying the twenty-ton trebuchet), so that your players can observe firsthand that this guy can effortlessly handle threats that would grind them into a fine powder. You have to be very careful here to emphasize what this guy is fighting and how well he's doing, so you may want to establish an easily identifiable "power unit", like a cyclops with a wizard riding on his shoulders. Your PCs can fight one in a boss fight at the climax of their mission, only to look out on the battlefield once they're done to see Bruce Machismo fighting a half-dozen of them at once. You run the risk of cheapening the victory for your PCs, but you can make it clear to them that-- while they were instrumental in winning the battle-- this guy is way more badass than they are, all the while never giving them the slightest provocation to fight this guy. That way, when the time rolls around to threaten your players, they'll already know that he's a credible threat. Of course, the worst-case scenario is that your players try and fight him anyway. As a sort of emergency option, prepare Mighty Bigfist's stat block in advance, so that if your players fight him now they'll be vastly outmatched. Have him act condescendingly and knock the PCs unconscious when they hit 0 hp (which means no death saving throws).
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2010 01:39
|
|
|
bezel posted:So the PCs are fighting in one army and this badass dude is in the enemy army and they meet in the middle of a big fight? That's perfect-- a war-sized melee isn't going to give them the time for a full-length encounter anyway. This is a good point. there are a lot of scenes in the Iliad where some hero is trying to get to another to either kill or rescue him, but the tide of battle keeps them apart. if you are forty feet away from a dude that's like a million moles away, because the intervening space is filled with soldiers from both armies. If your players are right next to the big guy, just have him get knocked down, and some other soldiers step in to fill the gap, thereby separating you both. The tide of war is a great way for the DM to control encounters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2010 05:42
|
|
|
Hey, just thought I'd chime in an possibly ask for some help. I've decided to run an Eberron Campaign and I need to build a bad guy. I want to make a necromancer who is using the large amounts of death from Cyre after the Last War to his advantage, but I don't know where I should be looking to create a powerful necromancer as far as books go. Plot related stuff coming up ahead. Mr. Blue, if you're reading this, I'll kill your character so fast your head will spin. Also, interesting discussion on how to incorporate a villain or bad-rear end without them just wiping out the party. What I'm thinking of doing is having my party find a magic item that sends them back in time to the Last War and have them hold a guard tower alongside some defending Cyre folk. They would eventually end up working alongside the main villain. He'll be nice and help them out (this was before Cyre basically gets boned). Eventually he'll give them his name and when they get back from the timeline, they'll learn the necromancers name is one and the same. Should be a decent  moment if I can pull it off right.
MrMortimer fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 14, 2010 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2010 09:37
|
|
|
Male Man posted:Alternately, if you have enough time in your narrative, you can establish him as Unstoppable McBadass by putting him on the players' side in a conflict, have him handle a large part of the main fighting himself (while your players are performing some secondary but vital side mission, like attacking and destroying the twenty-ton trebuchet), so that your players can observe firsthand that this guy can effortlessly handle threats that would grind them into a fine powder. You have to be very careful here to emphasize what this guy is fighting and how well he's doing, so you may want to establish an easily identifiable "power unit", like a cyclops with a wizard riding on his shoulders. Your PCs can fight one in a boss fight at the climax of their mission, only to look out on the battlefield once they're done to see Bruce Machismo fighting a half-dozen of them at once. And, even better, if you want your players to hate this guy and obsessively plan for his death and rejoice when they defeat him, you can have him take all the credit and give the PCs a condescending pat on the head for their minor assistance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2010 18:09
|
|
|
MrMortimer posted:Hey, just thought I'd chime in an possibly ask for some help. 3.5? Libris Mortis, True Necromancer prestige class. It's basically made for villains. In fact, that whole book is a must-have if you plan to use undead at all. Also check out the Dread Necromancer base class in Heroes of Horror.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2010 19:16
|
|
|
Etherwind posted:3.5? Libris Mortis, True Necromancer prestige class. It's basically made for villains. In fact, that whole book is a must-have if you plan to use undead at all. Also check out the Dread Necromancer base class in Heroes of Horror. Wow, those are some great classes. I think what I'll do is make the main baddy a true necromancer by going through cleric/wizard (this is when the party will meet him in the past, when he was still good) and then in the future he'll have taken some levels in True Necromancer. Then, for higher up minions/followers I'll use the Dread Necromancer class, because it seems to be one of those classes that you can become powerful without multiclassing. Riidi WW posted:And, even better, if you want your players to hate this guy and obsessively plan for his death and rejoice when they defeat him, you can have him take all the credit and give the PCs a condescending pat on the head for their minor assistance. This sounds awesome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2010 20:08
|
|
|
MrMortimer posted:LM Prestige Classes I am a big fan of the Bone Knight Prestige Class from LM, since part of the class features is "bad-rear end Bone Armor with skulls and poo poo," and the rest is boosting cleric abilities (including raising the cap for controlling undead. Although this assumes you care about the mechanics for Evil Guys controlling undead, it sure was satisfying when I told one of my first 3.5 groups "3 dozen skeletons and 4 ghouls lurch out from the prison cells as the man you once called your friend laughs madly." And then, just as planned, the Cleric of the Silver Hand made about two thirds of the skellies explode instantly. They loved that drat encounter. Edit: It's in the Eberron book "Five Nations." Green Intern fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 16, 2010 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2010 23:33
|
|
|
I don't suppose that WotC has released an official org chart for the 4e Pantheon, have they? The reason I ask is this. Tiamat is usually considered higher-ranking than Asmodeus, right? Also, is there an official God[dess] of the Underdark? I have written myself into a corner here with my first Epic storyline. Also, are there general tips for making good Epic encounters? Heroic ones with bigger numbers (2 or so front line monsters, some artillery, a leader, etc) are just getting focus fired to death.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2010 00:49
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:I don't suppose that WotC has released an official org chart for the 4e Pantheon, have they? The reason I ask is this. Tiamat is usually considered higher-ranking than Asmodeus, right? quote:Also, is there an official God[dess] of the Underdark? I have written myself into a corner here with my first Epic storyline. quote:Also, are there general tips for making good Epic encounters? Heroic ones with bigger numbers (2 or so front line monsters, some artillery, a leader, etc) are just getting focus fired to death. Youre not gonna be able to overcome them with sheer power due to the math. Make it so the campaign has a lot riding on success. Put in (reasonable) time limits so they cant rest as often which balances the field. Naturally don't make time limits a game over, just make things more difficult/involve signifigant loss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2010 02:24
|
|
|
RagnarokAngel posted:No. Very few of the god's powers have been statistically laid out for good reason. 4e tries to play more of a playground for you to think what you want. RagnarokAngel posted:It's practically Lolth, goddess of Drow RagnarokAngel posted:Youre not gonna be able to overcome them with sheer power due to the math. Make it so the campaign has a lot riding on success. Put in (reasonable) time limits so they cant rest as often which balances the field. Naturally don't make time limits a game over, just make things more difficult/involve signifigant loss. Ironically, my players are more pushing this than I am, as again, this is my first Epic campaign, and Heroic might actually need the half-hour adventuring day. Or maybe I am just a soft DM. All great answers, thanks much. Time to go do some worldbuilding.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2010 02:41
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:
You might try Torog, also.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2010 04:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 21:02 |
|
|
Yeah when you said goddess of the underdark I immediately thought of Llolth, then realized that she actually isn't. Everyone treats her like she is though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2010 04:18
|
|